Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[Contarini]

What would you define as “reasonable doubt.” Now you might be able to say that it hasn’t been proven false beyond any doubt. I might quibble with your statement that it hasn’t been proven false beyond a “reasonable doubt.”

I agree that it depends on what you mean by “reasonable doubt.” And I suppose that when I think of the truth or falsehood of Mormonism I’m thinking more of the basic claims about God and human nature made in Mormonism than I am about some of their claims about early American history. Probably I am downplaying the importance of those claims for Mormonism.

At the same time, my point stands that ostensibly reasonable people do believe these claims, however unbelievable you and I find them (I agree that I can’t see any reasonable ground for believing them, and I see what looks to me like pretty conclusive evidence against them). And in religious matters I’m willing to define “beyond reasonable doubt” as “incapable of being believed by a reasonable person, where ‘reasonable person’ is not defined circularly as someone who does not believe these things but is rather based on other criteria.” For instance, I am unaware of anyone I’d consider a reasonable person who believes in Scientology. If I met or learned of such a person, I’d have to reconsider not my belief that Scientology is false, but my belief that it is obviously false beyond a reasonable doubt. This in spite of the fact that I would continue to see Scientology as lacking any grounds for belief and having an awful lot of points against it.

But your point about the historical evidence is a good one. It’s easier to take my approach when speaking of something like the nature of God. Mormonism does (which in a way I find refreshing) pin itself to certain kinds of historical claims, and those claims do seem pretty hard to swallow at best.

Edwin

 

[Tartini]

So you have been “reconditioned” to think this?

Edwin

No.I am a Roman Catholic by the grace of God and according to His pleasure, not by the influences of men. Both statements are based only on observation of what is presented in actual real life situations that one can clearly see, yet have a difficult time in explaining.

I notice a number of posters on this thread are subscribing and attending two different denominations or churches. This strikes me as very odd, as well as strangely illogical. This tends to make any constructive discussion difficult (if not impossible), when one considers the elements as such. Perhaps they are searching for something, and I wish them blessings in their difficult journey.

 

[paulp1002]

Recently I have become very familiar with the Mormon religion over the past year. I met a Mormon girl, went to Mormon church for almost a year, married her and now maybe divorcing her, because I no longer find ANY truth in their religion (her choice for divorce not mine.)

Someone earlier in the thread stated:

"Your question is amusing to me, since the Bible backs up every Mormon teaching and thus to say it is a “sham” is to say the Bible is a “sham”, which I doubt you meant to say.”

I do believe that some of the Mormon teachings are from the Bible; however a large majority of them are not. For example, please provide scriptural references from the Bible stating that if someone drinks coffee, tea, alcohol, doesn’t pay 10% tithing or even smokes are not worthy enough to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can’t because there are none; the only references that you could provide are those from Joseph Smith’s revelations.

My wife says that she can no longer be married to me because I am unable to be “sealed” in the temple with her. I can’t be “sealed” to her in the Temple because I refuse to give up tea and I refused to pay 10% tithing. I have no problems giving some money to the church as try to do when I’m at Mass. However for a church to request a specific amount of money every month, and send you a “bill” at the end of the year with how much you owe, is absurd.

My grandmother and Godfather are two of the most righteous people I know. I have never heard them say one bad thing about another person and they both go to church several times a week and to tell me they are not worthy enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven because they drink tea, a cup of coffee or even have a glass of wine or beer, again is absurd. One of Jesus’ first miracles are turning water into wine.

Now for the actual question regarding this thread; why are there so many Mormon followers? In my opinion is because the religion doesn’t give its followers time to pray and reflect on their beliefs. Sunday church service consists of three hours, an hour of sacrament which is really members sharing their testimony, an hour of Priesthood and Relief Society and an hour of Sunday school. All of which, are constantly push the revelations of Joseph Smith with the occasional reference to the Bible. What happens if you don’t go to church on Sunday, you have members coming to your house asking why you didn’t go? You also have Family Home Evening on Mondays, Institute several times a week, and Visiting Teachers and Home Teachers constantly preaching Joseph Smith’s revelations.

My wife will deny this to this day, but our marriage was at its best when she didn’t go to church for several weeks. We got along, we didn’t fight everything was okay. However once she went back to church and they starting preaching about temple marriages, about not drinking tea etc…, that’s when we started having problems again. She even told me that I needed to “push” her to go because she will tend to fall away from the church. LDS members constantly have to be surrounded and reminded or Joseph Smith’s revelations. If not they start to question their beliefs, which is why church is 3 hours, and you have institute, home and visitor teachers, dinner for the missionaries etc…

Again, the Mormon religion has some good core values, but their beliefs are from the revelations of a man who didn’t know which religion was right for him and who had a “vision.” A Vision to start a church that he can control how it wants it ran, and what people believe.

And trust me I have prayed with an open heart which church is true. I want nothing more to be married to my wife. But I have rec’d my own personal revelation from God, that the Catholic Church is the one and only true church. Like Jesus told Peter “…upon this rock I will build my church…” Notice how he didn’t say churches, there is only one church. The Catholic Church has always been that one church.

Sorry for the length but I have been wanting to say this for a long time.

 

[why_me]

Mormons aren’t any more moral than other religious people in my experience. I have a daughter who went to BYU-Idaho and was shocked at the drunkenness and promiscuity she encountered among the students at that school. She transferred out to a secular college where the Mormons attending seemed to be more faithful. Having a bunch of Mormons together in one place usually makes them worse rather than better. Just go up into the canyons on any Sunday in Utah and you will see how many Mormons disregard their religion. I was also surprised how many shoppers I encountered at Wal-Mart on a Sunday morning in Orem last year. If you want to see people living their religion with a sort of harmony I’m afraid you will have to become Amish.

I cannot confirm your post but what I do know is that if any young person is caught doing what you said they were doing, they would get the boot out of school. It is not easy to be promiscuous at BYU but not impossible. The consequences are severe and not worth the risk. But I do think that you are overtop in your post.

BYU is a major recruiting ground by corporations because of its high moral calibre and ethics.

 

[why_me]

Recently I have become very familiar with the Mormon religion over the past year. I met a Mormon girl, went to Mormon church for almost a year, married her and now maybe divorcing her, because I no longer find ANY truth in their religion (her choice for divorce not mine.)

Someone earlier in the thread stated:

"Your question is amusing to me, since the Bible backs up every Mormon teaching and thus to say it is a “sham” is to say the Bible is a “sham”, which I doubt you meant to say.”

I do believe that some of the Mormon teachings are from the Bible; however a large majority of them are not. For example, please provide scriptural references from the Bible stating that if someone drinks coffee, tea, alcohol, doesn’t pay 10% tithing or even smokes are not worthy enough to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. You can’t because there are none; the only references that you could provide are those from Joseph Smith’s revelations.

Sorry for the length but I have been wanting to say this for a long time.

Mormons believe in modern revelation and they have been cautioned about tea and coffee and alcohol. And I can’t say that they have been wrong on this. If more catholics and protestants would abstain from alcohol there would be more happy catholic and protestant families since alcohol can be a major cause for domestic violence.

Now of course, I can find no where where it says in the bible to pray to saints for intervention for sinners. Where is that verse? Nor can I see in the bible where Mary was venerated by the early church. Where is that in the bible?

And as you must know, mormons have three degrees of glory. Each degree is beautiful to be but the celestial kingdom is the highest in glory. Very few people go to hell according to the mormon faith. Now these degrees of glory are mentioned in the bible and they are a part of heaven.

 

[dianaiad]

Bah, second rate school. Maybe third rate.

Bryan
Alumni, University of Utah (the clear number one school in the intermountain west)

Wait a minute here, buddy. True, the University of Utah ranks 127 in the US News rankings. That’s rather good.

Brigham Young University, however, ranks 113.

They are both Tier 1 schools.

So there.

hmph.

(of course, the college I graduated from is Tier 3 and doesn’t come close to either one. Darn it.)

 

[dianaiad]

I know of no Catholic that is intolerant of Mormons, but there is nothing that says that we need to be tolerant of the lies of Joseph Smith and his cohorts.

You have got to be kidding. Don’t you read the posts on this forum, MelanieAnne?

While most of you are tolerant and civil, a few of you are very much…not.

 

[PaulDupre]

Recently I have become very familiar with the Mormon religion over the past year. I met a Mormon girl, went to Mormon church for almost a year, married her and now maybe divorcing her, because I no longer find ANY truth in their religion (her choice for divorce not mine.)

And she’ll get plenty of encouragement from her “priesthood leaders”, family and friends to divorce you. They will remind her that she will not have you in the Celestial Kingdom anyway (since you will be relegated to one the lower ghettos in the LDS heavens), so why bother building a life with you here on earth? They will also remind her that she and any children you have together will be taken from you and re-assigned to a Mormon man in the Celestial Kingdom.

Didn’t anyone tell you this before you married a Mormon?

 

[why_me]

You know your 13 million number is flawed. In many Latin American countries only about 10-15 percent are active. In surveys in Mexico and other Latin American countries in which people self-identify according to religion the Mormon numbers prove to be over-reported by as much as four times. Even in the United States the number who claim Mormonism to be their religion is far less than those the LDS claim as members. The number of members who actually buy into it may be as low as four million. Once you are on the Mormon membership roles you continue to be counted as a member whether or not you claim an affiliation. Most churches get rid of the dead wood when they count their numbers – from what I understand Catholic numbers are based on a count of attendance rather than those who were baptized Catholic.

As for politeness, that would never have helped me deconvert from Mormonism. I needed the truth thrown at me in a very direct manner on many of these newsgroups and it was.

I think that many christian faiths are suffering from the materialist culture that surround them. What do you say about this:

boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/05/02/catholic_church_withers_in_europe/

True it is four years ago but the situation has not changed.

 

[twopekinguys]

Wait a minute here, buddy. True, the University of Utah ranks 127 in the US News rankings. That’s rather good.

Brigham Young University, however, ranks 113.

They are both Tier 1 schools.

So there.

hmph.

(of course, the college I graduated from is Tier 3 and doesn’t come close to either one. Darn it.)

But then again, accorrding to US News, University of Illinois is ranked number 40 and is a tier 1 school…hhhmmmmmm

Go Illini!!!1

 

[why_me]

And she’ll get plenty of encouragement from her “priesthood leaders”, family and friends to divorce you. They will remind her that she will not have you in the Celestial Kingdom anyway (since you will be relegated to one the lower ghettos in the LDS heavens), so why bother building a life with you here on earth? They will also remind her that she and any children you have together will be taken from you and re-assigned to a Mormon man in the Celestial Kingdom.

Didn’t anyone tell you this before you married a Mormon?

Actually this is not true at all. No one would encourage divorce in this situation. But they would encourage an attempt to work things out. But nice try in your antimormonism. In fact, women have independent minds in this regard.If they wish a divorce they do not need encouragement.

Should a good catholic woman stay married to a unholy man who is heading to hell? Let me know your answer.

 

[why_me]

You have got to be kidding. Don’t you read the posts on this forum, MelanieAnne?

While most of you are tolerant and civil, a few of you are very much…not.

True and the ones that are not tend to be the most vocal and judgemental of mormonism. It is quite a contradiction since those that are intolerent do not live their catholic faith and should go to confession for their harsh words.

 

[dianaiad]

You know your 13 million number is flawed. In many Latin American countries only about 10-15 percent are active. In surveys in Mexico and other Latin American countries in which people self-identify according to religion the Mormon numbers prove to be over-reported by as much as four times. Even in the United States the number who claim Mormonism to be their religion is far less than those the LDS claim as members. The number of members who actually buy into it may be as low as four million. Once you are on the Mormon membership roles you continue to be counted as a member whether or not you claim an affiliation. Most churches get rid of the dead wood when they count their numbers – from what I understand Catholic numbers are based on a count of attendance rather than those who were baptized Catholic.

As for politeness, that would never have helped me deconvert from Mormonism. I needed the truth thrown at me in a very direct manner on many of these newsgroups and it was.

My very dear sir, we have addressed this issue many times on this forum. The fact is, there is a far larger percentage of ‘active’ Mormons than there are ‘active’ Catholics. As in…about 45% of American Mormons attend church to about 28% of American Catholics who do.

I guess it’s up to you, though. Using published church statistics, over 13, million people in the world are Mormon, vs. 65.5 million Catholics. that means that there are five times as many Catholics as there are Mormons on the planet. However, if you are going to insist upon counting only those who are actually ACTIVE, then it would be, what…5.85 active Mormons on the planet, vs. 18.34 million active Catholics…only three times as many active Catholics as there are active Mormons.

Lessee…five Catholics to one Mormon, or three active Catholics to one active Mormon. Hmmn. If I were you, I’d stop quibbling about the numbers. Doesn’t help you.

Oh, and no. Catholics do not count by attendance. They count by baptisms, confirmations, births and conversions. Just like we do.

 

[dianaiad]

And she’ll get plenty of encouragement from her “priesthood leaders”, family and friends to divorce you. They will remind her that she will not have you in the Celestial Kingdom anyway (since you will be relegated to one the lower ghettos in the LDS heavens), so why bother building a life with you here on earth? They will also remind her that she and any children you have together will be taken from you and re-assigned to a Mormon man in the Celestial Kingdom.

Didn’t anyone tell you this before you married a Mormon?

No she won’t. If she goes for counseling, she will be told that marriage is sacred. She chose to marry a non-Mormon, and divorcing him because he remains a non-Mormon is not good enough as a reason.

 

[Religio71]

My very dear sir, we have addressed this issue many times on this forum. The fact is, there is a far larger percentage of ‘active’ Mormons than there are ‘active’ Catholics. As in…about 45% of American Mormons attend church to about 28% of American Catholics who do.

I guess it’s up to you, though. Using published church statistics, over 13, million people in the world are Mormon, vs. 65.5 million Catholics. that means that there are five times as many Catholics as there are Mormons on the planet. However, if you are going to insist upon counting only those who are actually ACTIVE, then it would be, what…5.85 active Mormons on the planet, vs. 18.34 million active Catholics…only three times as many active Catholics as there are active Mormons.

Lessee…five Catholics to one Mormon, or three active Catholics to one active Mormon. Hmmn. If I were you, I’d stop quibbling about the numbers. Doesn’t help you.

Oh, and no. Catholics do not count by attendance. They count by baptisms, confirmations, births and conversions. Just like we do.

Uh, there are 13 million Mormons in the world, compared to 1 Billion+ Catholics.

 

[twopekinguys]

True and the ones that are not tend to be the most vocal and judgemental of mormonism. It is quite a contradiction since those that are intolerent do not live their catholic faith and should go to confession for their harsh words.

Now if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black.

You who have so many judgements about Catholics, but yet attend adoration with nuns.

You’ve always got something to say about Catholics and the use of alcohol, or the priest scandal. You are very quick to judge those who you “think” are not living up to their Catholic faith. All the while claiming to be both lds and Catholic.

If you really are Catholic, my suggestion to you is to butt to the head of the line at the confessional.

I have no problems with mormons, even though I disagree with the theology.

I strongly suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror about some of the things you have said about the Catholic church and it’s members, and convince yourself they were the Christian thing to say.

 

[robert7685]

In contributing to this thread, I’ll be very plain. It is not so obviously a sham, but rather a clever counterfeit to the truth. While it may have been formed by people with good intentions, it is inspired by the Father Of Lies, who is cunning beyond understanding. The difference is that Mormonism has no staying power. Thus there is a constant, almost nonstop, regiment of exposure to LDS doctrine in order to keep them going. I know this because I once was a Mormon. When I stopped being “active,” I was slowly led to the Catholic Church. As I learn more and more (I intend to start RCIA soon) my soul jumps for joy, just as John the Baptist did in the womb as Mary’s salutation reached Elizibeth’s ears.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In contributing to this thread, I’ll be very plain. It is not so obviously a sham, but rather a clever counterfeit to the truth. While it may have been formed by people with good intentions, it is inspired by the Father Of Lies, who is cunning beyond understanding. The difference is that Mormonism has no staying power. Thus there is a constant, almost nonstop, regiment of exposure to LDS doctrine in order to keep them going. I know this because I once was a Mormon. When I stopped being “active,” I was slowly led to the Catholic Church. As I learn more and more (I intend to start RCIA soon) my soul jumps for joy, just as John the Baptist did in the womb as Mary’s salutation reached Elizibeth’s ears.

 

[mjf001]

The Mormon church is false? I must have missed the news release. In what newspaper was it announced that the mormon faith is false? To my understanding it has not been proven false yet. Mormons still have the original 11 witnesses to the book of mormon and none of these witnesses ever denied their claim even on their deathbed or when they left the lds faith. And then of course, we have the wives of these witnesses. None ever claimed that their husbands were fraudsters. That is quite unusual. Plus we have a book which is over 500 pages and no one to my knowledge has come up with a rational explanation of how it came about. Did Joseph Smith write it? Highly unlikely. Did Sidney Rigdon write it? He had a brain but not likely. No one ever saw Joseph with a manucript in hand and in fact considering all the paper and ink it would have taken to write such a book, not to mention feathered pens, the local store would have run out of ink supplies many times. But as far as I know no one ever testified that they sold Joseph Smith a lot of ink and paper. Now that would be a clue.

The mormon faith comes up for a lot of criticism here. Strange since the faith has many good people in it. If the world had more mormons it certainly wouldn’t be a worse place. All faiths have the seeds of doubt in them. I see no evidence that god exists except by faith that he does exist. I see no evidence outside of the bible that Christ performed miracles. It would be wonderful if such events could be confirmed by the discovery of new scrolls…scrolls written by an eyewitness. Now that would be something. Mormons base their belief on faith and the witness of the holy ghost. They pray about the book of mormon and receive a witness that it is true. And that is why they remain members.

Never at this point in time will mormonism be proven true through evidence. If that were the case, every catholic on this forum would convert to mormonism but all for the wrong reasons. God does not work through conclusive evidence but through faith. It the same for the catholic faith. Many non-catholics could claim the same about the catholic faith: how can they believe such a sham? And an atheist would claim that all religion is a sham.

Words can come back to bite you.

When are you going to drop this pretense of being LDS and Catholic? It’s offensive. It’s not possible to be LDS and Catholic, you’re either one or the other - they’re mutually exclusive.

Now, on to another of your posts which totally defend the LDS. Still never seen a post where you defend Catholicism, despite your previous protestations to the contrary.

There is only one truth and that is Jesus Christ, Eternally begotten Son of God, second person in the Holy Trinity. There is only one church (okay two if you want to count the Eastern Orthodox) which can trace it’s origins to the time of Christ. This is the church he founded, the Catholic Church. Christ said he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all Truth. Either he can do that or he can’t.

You say no one has proved the LDS false? Okay, no one has proved the LDS true, either. This circular logic won’t fly here. You can assert the truth of the LDS all you want, but it will never make it true.

I pray you see the error of your ways,
Michael

 

[why_me]

In contributing to this thread, I’ll be very plain. It is not so obviously a sham, but rather a clever counterfeit to the truth. While it may have been formed by people with good intentions, it is inspired by the Father Of Lies, who is cunning beyond understanding. The difference is that Mormonism has no staying power. Thus there is a constant, almost nonstop, regiment of exposure to LDS doctrine in order to keep them going. I know this because I once was a Mormon. When I stopped being “active,” I was slowly led to the Catholic Church. As I learn more and more (I intend to start RCIA soon) my soul jumps for joy, just as John the Baptist did in the womb as Mary’s salutation reached Elizibeth’s ears.

Of course it is okay to claim that it is a counterfeit to the truth but you will also need to prove it. And this you cannot do. I think that it is great that you may be a catholic but you cannot claim that the lds church is not true. To my understanding, the Father Of Lies does not create something good and if he does do such things, I would have to blame Heavenly Father for allowing him to do so.

Let me put it this way: the devil creates something that encourages people to pray to heavenly father often, remain chaste, obey the commandments, and read the scriptures?