Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[dianaiad]

I did think it was interesting after you pointed out that seeing Christ in the myth of a feathered serpent as gullible; her defense was to attack Catholics instead of defending the Mormon position. And comparing a historical Christian figure seen in toast; does make you ask the question: Is the feathered serpent considered a Mormon historical figure?

Attacking Catholics to try and defend Mormonism is one of many reasons I know it is a fabrication.

I can’t ‘defend the Mormon position’ because the Mormons don’t have a position on this, except to say ‘that’s interesting.’

I wasn’t attacking Catholics, either. what I said was that if I were going to behave as you do, that I WOULD make fun of stuff like seeing the face of Mary in a pancake griddle.

And then I didn’t make fun of it, unless you think my calling them the result of 'faith…and pareidolia." making fun. It’s not, you know.

You are very good at eisegesis.

 

[ricko]

No, she didn’t.

Diana, you are a very intelligent person who is attempting to accomplish something on these threads. And that is admirable. But one thing you will need to understand, there are anti mormon posters on the mormon threads who claim to be catholic and these posters will never be able to have a discussion with you. It is impossible for them to do so. The only thing they can do is throw negatives into the discussion. But they cannot have a communication with you except by those means. It is impossible for them. You are much better off taking what they say with a grain of salt since they are only trying to get a rise out of you. But let me say this:

Knowing what I know about receiving the communion in peace and harmony because of the receiving of the body and blood of christ, I really don’t know how these so called catholic posters do it. I sense too much dislike in them to take the communion. Feeling as they do toward mormons and also of those of other faiths and religions, I don’t know how they can take the communion.

And so, the so called catholics here are a minority and very small minority at that. Most catholics on this forum have no hatred or dislike for mormonism and mormons, And these people stay away from these threads because they know that it is against their faith to mock and disparage other religions.

Also, a good catholic should not have such contention inside them and they attempt to accomplish their task by and through prayer by praying for the mormons or any othe people of other faiths so that they may see the truth and come unto christ in the true and apostolic church. So don’t take it all so seriously. You will only get heartburn and in the end, the antimormon so called catholics will triumph because of it, because doubt is doubt and it is a powerful weapon, especially when coupled with a stream of negatives that actually say nothing.

Such negativity

 

[zaffiroborant]

why me;5580097:

No, she didn’t.

Diana, you are a very intelligent person who is attempting to accomplish something on these threads. And that is admirable. But one thing you will need to understand, there are anti mormon posters on the mormon threads who claim to be catholic and these posters will never be able to have a discussion with you. It is impossible for them to do so. The only thing they can do is throw negatives into the discussion. But they cannot have a communication with you except by those means. It is impossible for them. You are much better off taking what they say with a grain of salt since they are only trying to get a rise out of you. But let me say this:

Knowing what I know about receiving the communion in peace and harmony because of the receiving of the body and blood of christ, I really don’t know how these so called catholic posters do it. I sense too much dislike in them to take the communion. Feeling as they do toward mormons and also of those of other faiths and religions, I don’t know how they can take the communion.

And so, the so called catholics here are a minority and very small minority at that. Most catholics on this forum have no hatred or dislike for mormonism and mormons, And these people stay away from these threads because they know that it is against their faith to mock and disparage other religions.

Also, a good catholic should not have such contention inside them and they attempt to accomplish their task by and through prayer by praying for the mormons or any othe people of other faiths so that they may see the truth and come unto christ in the true and apostolic church. So don’t take it all so seriously. You will only get heartburn and in the end, the antimormon so called catholics will triumph because of it, because doubt is doubt and it is a powerful weapon, especially when coupled with a stream of negatives that actually say nothing.

Such negativity

Brings to mind words like ironic or sanctimonious.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Your point, Rebecca. You were the one talking about how investigating this stuff was for the illiterate, ignorant and gullible.

And, it is.

I guess you are going to have to throw out most of the New Testament, then, from Acts on. But you are correct; you aren’t required to believe a darned thing. Do what you wish.

I guess you are going to have to learn about Catholicism before making such uninformed statements.

Rebecca, I love how you have presented yourself as an expert on a religion that you left when you were sixteen, and that your memories of teenaged years absolutely MUST trump the learning and experience of 50 years…and why? Because you left and I didn’t. This is the only area where something like that makes sense to anybody.

Diana, I love how you are unable to address what I say and always go for changing the subject to me. You really should get over this.

What in the world do you think I’m defending? Do you even read anything I actually write?

You are defending a pagan god as part of your religion.

 

[MelanieAnne]

The feeling’s mutual, Melanie, and it’s good to know I’m not the only fan of Fr. Corapi.

Every week! More often if I can find the show! Re-runs welcome!

 

[dianaiad]

And, it is.

I guess you are going to have to learn about Catholicism before making such uninformed statements.

Diana, I love how you are unable to address what I say and always go for changing the subject to me. You really should get over this.

You are defending a pagan god as part of your religion.

Are you serious? The crazy thing about this is, I believe you actually are. But go ahead; please look at my posts and show me a quote that says I am 'defending a pagan god as part of my religion."

 

[MelanieAnne]

Originally Posted by why me

No, she didn’t.

Diana, you are a very intelligent person who is attempting to accomplish something on these threads. And that is admirable. But one thing you will need to understand, there are anti mormon posters on the mormon threads who claim to be catholic and these posters will never be able to have a discussion with you. It is impossible for them to do so. The only thing they can do is throw negatives into the discussion. But they cannot have a communication with you except by those means. It is impossible for them. You are much better off taking what they say with a grain of salt since they are only trying to get a rise out of you. But let me say this:

Knowing what I know about receiving the communion in peace and harmony because of the receiving of the body and blood of christ, I really don’t know how these so called catholic posters do it. I sense too much dislike in them to take the communion. Feeling as they do toward mormons and also of those of other faiths and religions, I don’t know how they can take the communion.

And so, the so called catholics here are a minority and very small minority at that. Most catholics on this forum have no hatred or dislike for mormonism and mormons, And these people stay away from these threads because they know that it is against their faith to mock and disparage other religions.

Also, a good catholic should not have such contention inside them and they attempt to accomplish their task by and through prayer by praying for the mormons or any othe people of other faiths so that they may see the truth and come unto christ in the true and apostolic church. So don’t take it all so seriously. You will only get heartburn and in the end, the antimormon so called catholics will triumph because of it, because doubt is doubt and it is a powerful weapon, especially when coupled with a stream of negatives that actually say nothing.
Such negativity

It appears that WhyMe is also plagiarizing ~ now that I have suggested he/she is not Catholic, he/she is claiming we Catholics are not Catholic either. Too bad WhyMe is unable to AT LEAST come up with his/her own material!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Are you serious? The crazy thing about this is, I believe you actually are. But go ahead; please look at my posts and show me a quote that says I am 'defending a pagan god as part of my religion."

What are you defending then? Comparing mormon belief of Jesus as Quetzlcoatl to Marian miracles? We believe in Marian miracles. Did you make a poor comparison?

 

[ParkerD]

The entire religion is based on a fabrication, that of a “great apostasy”. For a Catholic, it doesn’t get any more obvious than that.

Rebecca J,
I had had hopes that this thread was going to recede past the first page, but since not, then I’ll ask:

Are you saying that if a person were to walk into a Catholic service of today, and go backward in time and walk into a church service led by Peter in 37 AD, they would find the same exact surroundings (meaning the kinds of ornamental surroundings), the same exact rituals, the same exact prayers, and Peter would be dressed like the pope dresses today for public ceremonies? And are you saying that Peter called himself pope?

 

[Religio71]

Rebecca J,
I had had hopes that this thread was going to recede past the first page, but since not, then I’ll ask:

Are you saying that if a person were to walk into a Catholic service of today, and go backward in time and walk into a church service led by Peter in 37 AD, they would find the same exact surroundings (meaning the kinds of ornamental surroundings), the same exact rituals, the same exact prayers, and Peter would be dressed like the pope dresses today for public ceremonies? And are you saying that Peter called himself pope?

Catholics never claim that our liturgical services are exact replicas of what the first Christians did. Nor do we claim that Peter called himself Pope (father). In fact, we have multiple liturgies in use today, including the Mass of Paul VI, the Tridentine Mass, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great, the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts, among others.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,
I had had hopes that this thread was going to recede past the first page, but since not, then I’ll ask:

Are you saying that if a person were to walk into a Catholic service of today, and go backward in time and walk into a church service led by Peter in 37 AD, they would find the same exact surroundings (meaning the kinds of ornamental surroundings), the same exact rituals, the same exact prayers, and Peter would be dressed like the pope dresses today for public ceremonies? And are you saying that Peter called himself pope?

Parker, as has already been explained to you, “pope” is a term of endearment, which means “papa”. Sometimes you will even see Catholics call the pope “papa”. Same thing. The pope is the Vicar of Christ, the Bishop of Rome, the Successor to Peter. And no, Peter did not call himself the successor to himself. He ordained Bishops to succeed him.

Vestments are traditional, the surroundings are part of the teachings of the church, as, that is what the surroundings are meant to do. Teach. Yes, the Apostles taught.

As to the liturgy, indeed:

"But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has
assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called
brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty
prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated]
person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted
worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be
found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be
saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we
salute one another with a kiss. [1908] There is then brought to the
president of the brethren [1909] bread and a cup of wine mixed with
water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the
universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers
thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive
these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and
thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying
Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be
it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have
expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each
of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over
which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they
carry away a portion.

And this food is called among us Eucharistia [1910] [the Eucharist], of
which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the
things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the
washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and
who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and
common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ
our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh
and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the
food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our
blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood
of that Jesus who was made flesh. [1911] For the apostles, in the
memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered
unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He
had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, [1912] this
is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and
given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone.
Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras,
commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of
water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one
who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And
the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and
for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all
through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the
day called Sunday, [1913] all who live in cities or in the country
gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the
writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when
the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to
the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray,
and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and
water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and
thanksgivings, according to his ability, [1914] and the people assent,
saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation
of that over which thanks have been given, [1915] and to those who are
absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do,
and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is
deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and
those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those
who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word
takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we
all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God,
having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and
Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was
crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day
after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to
His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have
submitted to you also for your consideration.

And if these things seem to you to be reasonable and true, honour them;
but if they seem nonsensical, despise them as nonsense, and do not
decree death against those who have done no wrong, as you would against
enemies. For we forewarn you, that you shall not escape the coming
judgment of God, if you continue in your injustice; and we ourselves
will invite you to do that which is pleasing to God." (St. Clement, c.58AD)

Perhaps you believe you can disprove St. Clement, who learned at the Apostle’s feet.

 

[dianaiad]

What are you defending then?

No, Rebecca. You made the accusation. Please show me where I am 'defending a pagan god."

G’head.You don’t get to make a nutsy accusation like that, then refuse to back it up and attempt to change the topic.

Comparing mormon belief of Jesus as Quetzlcoatl to Marian miracles? We believe in Marian miracles. Did you make a poor comparison?

You do believe in Marian miracles. That was the POINT.

Here is where the comparison lies, Rebecca. Now please open your eyes and this time, READ THE WORDS.

Those Quetzalcoatl myths exist. This mythological ‘type’ is almost universal among every human culture there is. They are to be expected. They are there. Really. I have never claimed that they prove the Book of Mormon to be true, not once.

I said “They are interesting.”

They are–they do not prove that the Book of Mormon is true, but they are what I would call 'negative evidence," in that their presence does nothing one way or the other…but their absence might be evidence against. In this case, their absence would be evidence against the whole of Judeo-Christian historical thought. If God began the human race with religious truth, and the various cultures fell away and lost it, there would still be some hint, in oral history and mythology, of the original theology. Some universal theme; some traceable thread of thought, that leads us back to that first theology. I think that this ‘messiah’ type is one of those threads; the god, or son of god, born of a virgin, who has great adventures and then is either killed, commits suicide, or sacrificed–and then returns from death, or leaves and promises to return. This archetype is found everywhere: as it should be found everywhere, if the original theology is what Jews, Christians and Muslims claim it is.

Like I said. Interesting. Not proof of anything, just…interesting.

YOU are the one who is afraid that, if they actually exist, that they might just be evidence for the Book of Mormon. You and others like you are desperately attempting to discredit them; to paint them as something other than they are, to claim that everybody who finds one, no matter where it is, is either a quack, or a liar, or attempting somehow to use it to prove Mormonism to be true.

I have news for you, Rebecca. Most of the people who are working in this field couldn’t care less about whether Mormonism would be affected one way or the other…and it wouldn’t be, anyway. It MIGHT be, if it could be shown that such myths only occur in the Americas, and can be tied back to that particular period, but they appear all over the earth, from all periods of history and in almost all cultures.

I find it amazing, and a little sad, that our critics are so afraid that something might show up that even hints at supporting an LDS claim that they will actively seek to destroy entire fields of study–even when the researchers in those fields are more likely to say “Mormon…what’s that?” than 'Eureka! We’ve proved Mormonism!"

Those myths do not prove Mormonism. They do not prove that Christ showed up in America.

They also do not prove that Mormonism is false–is that reason enough for you to want to destroy it? Are you so obsessed with Mormonism that you can’t handle the thought that anything at all could simply not prove it false?

Now here we have the “Marian miracles,” where faithful Catholics (and even those who are not faithful, but are inclined to believe anyway) see the virgin Mary in humble objects. The FACT is, no matter how many people might want to make fun of them, those images are actually there. Those who don’t see Mary in them still see something. We might call it pareidolia and coincidence, but before you can see a face in something, that something has to be there.

If believers want to see Mary in those humble things, then…they see Mary in those humble things. Frankly, I think it’s appropriate; if these appearances are caused by Mary, the fact that they do appear in everyday objects makes more sense than to see her only in gilt covered icons and marble statues.

However, that you see her in these things does not prove that Catholicism is true, or even that she is there. It only proves that you see her there. That I do not see her in these things doesn’t prove that they were not divinely caused. I don’t claim that those images do not exist in order to prove Catholicism false; I can’t. It would make me look pretty silly, since those images (whatever they truly are) are demonstrably THERE. Just like the Qetzalcoatl type myths actually exist.

They are there, they are real—Attempting to misrepresent them out of fear, to belittle those who believe in them in order to discredit them, or to treat the faithful who believe in Marian miracles with disdain–doesn’t make the images go away, or make them mean anything they don’t mean. Either way.

I may be bemused at someone who spends enough money to pay off my student loan for a grilled cheese sandwich with what looks like her image on it, but hey, it’s not my money and it’s not my faith. It’s his. I hope whoever bought it is comforted in his faith by it.

You have jumped so completely on the 'no, there are Messiah archetype stories anywhere and even if there were, Quetzalcoatl isn’t one of them" bandwagon out of sheer terror. You are afraid that those very real myths maybe, POSSIBLY, could someday in some way, be evidence that Christ actually did visit the Americas…you are behaving out of irrational prejudice, fear and contempt.

And you are misrepresenting the myth of Quetzalcoatl in order to do so. You really need to get your sources from places other than Wikipedia, Rebecca.

And destroying your own credibility by so doing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Diana, you are making the mistake that mormonism has inherent to it. Overlaying your beliefs over that of other cultures and religions.

 

[Jerusha]

The irony is that some of the parallels between Christianity and the Quetzalcoatl myth were drawn by Spanish priests in 1500’s Mexico. They wanted the natives to have had some contact with Christianity, perhaps through St. Brendan the Navigator. So they interpreted it through their own lenses.

So end the endless, boring, and trivial argument.

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, you are making the mistake that mormonism has inherent to it. Overlaying your beliefs over that of other cultures and religions.

And precisely where did I do that, Rebecca?

 

[dianaiad]

The irony is that some of the parallels between Christianity and the Quetzalcoatl myth were drawn by Spanish priests in 1500’s Mexico. They wanted the natives to have had some contact with Christianity, perhaps through St. Brendan the Navigator. So they interpreted it through their own lenses.

So end the endless, boring, and trivial argument.

Ah. Another Wiki reader.

Quetzalcoatl’s interest, to me, has nothing to do with what Montezuma may or may not have done with the belief. It has everything to do with the accepted story of who Quetzalcoatl was, and how that myth shares archetypal elements with many other such archetypes from many other cultures.

I have to admit, this is pretty funny–and one of the biggest straw men I’ve ever seen you guys build.

 

[why_me]

And and LDS rebuked you for your posts on that thread. You were gossiping and “judging without mercy”.

I haven’t seen any rebuke. Could you point me to the thread in question. This was the last catholic thread I was on at MAD.

mormonapologetics.org/topic/44800-president-monson-speaks-at-the-cathedral-of-the-madeleine/

Where was the rebuke? However, one mormon poster was rebuked for giving a catholic a hard time and rightly so, but it wasn’t me. Where is the thread in question?

 

[why_me]

Such negativity

Am I wrong? My experience with communion is that one should be at peace and harmony and not have dislike for any group of people or faith. Am I wrong? The idea: pray for mormons and not bash them is the way god would go, I believe. And that is the catholic way too.

 

[Religio71]

Am I wrong? My experience with communion is that one should be at peace and harmony and not have dislike for any group of people or faith. Am I wrong? The idea: pray for mormons and not bash them is the way god would go, I believe. And that is the catholic way too.

And where in the Catechism or any Ecumenical Council is it said that one should not dislike a group of people or another faith to receive the Eucharist?

 

[why_me]

It appears that WhyMe is also plagiarizing ~ now that I have suggested he/she is not Catholic, he/she is claiming we Catholics are not Catholic either. Too bad WhyMe is unable to AT LEAST come up with his/her own material!

To tell you the truth, I think that I am the most catholic poster on the thread. To my understanding catholics should not be bashing another faith or creed. And I think that I am right that all the bashing of mormons and other creeds or faiths is not at all promoting the catholic faith. Just the opposite.

And since the thread is now 61 pages long, mormonism is not so obviously false.