Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[Eliza10]

Wow. This is quite a discussion, like all the Mormon threads. I thought I would follow “why me”'s lead and cut and paste too.

The following excerpt is from www.wivesojosepphsmith.org, and this is the story of one of his wives.

Did you know Joseph Smith acquired more than 30 wives in TWO YEARS?? And he “knew” them all, in the Biblical sense. He didn’'t waste anytime; marriages were consummated immediately.

My Mormon friend offered that Smiths polygamy was a kind of heroism since in those rough pioneer days woman needed protection. Then I re-read some of these stories and realized that a lot of these women wer ALREADY married!! Anyway, here is the story of just one [WARNING: Brace yourself: Smith was a first class creep!]:

ZINA HUNTINGTON JACOBS

In 1839, the Huntington family arrived in Nauvoo, along with daughter, Zina. Within months, Zina’s Mother died from the malaria epidemic which claimed the lives of many of the early Nauvoo settlers. About this same time, Zina met and was courted by Henry B. Jacobs, a handsome and talented musician. Sometime during Henry’s courtship of Zina, Joseph Smith explained to Zina the “principle of plural marriage” and asked her to become one of his wives. Zina remembers the conflict she felt about Joseph’s proposal, and her budding relationship with Henry: “O dear Heaven, grant me wisdom! Help me to know the way. O Lord, my god, let thy will be done and with thine arm around about to guide, shield and direct…” Zina declined Joseph’s proposal and chose to marry Henry. They were married on March 7, 1841.

Zina later wrote, that within months of her marriage to Henry, “[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life’”. Joseph further explained that, “the Lord had made it known to him she was to be his celestial wife.”

Zina chose to obey this commandment and married Joseph on October 27. She later recalled, “When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag…I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church…I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved…”. Zina continued, *“It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years”. *

Zina’s first husband, Henry, was aware of this wedding and they continued to live in the same home. He believed that “whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.” Over the next few years, Henry was sent on several missions to Chicago, Western New York and Tennessee. Henry missed his family and wrote home often. One of Henry’s missionary companions, John D. Lee, said, “Jacobs was bragging about his wife and two children, what a true, virtuous, lovely woman she was. He almost worshiped her…”.

Shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, Zina married Brigham Young. In May of 1846, Henry was sent on a mission to England. In Henry’s absence, Zina began to live openly as Brigham’s wife and remained so throughout her life in Utah. Henry seemed to struggle with this arrangement and later wrote to Zina, “…the same affection is there…But I feel alone…I do not Blame Eny person…may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham…all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph.”

 

[Eliza10]

And here is one more, detailing how Joseph Smith “resuced” a motherless girl, away from her father and into his bed. What an operator.

LUCY WALKER

The Walker family arrived in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841. That summer Lucy’s Mother contracted malaria and died months later in January 1842, leaving ten children. Her Father, John, was heartbroken and his health, “seemed to give way”. Lucy remembers, “The Prophet came to the rescue. He Said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife. You must have a change of scene, a change of climate. You have Just such a family as I could love. My house shall be their home…place the little ones with kind friends, and the four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children…”

The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year mission to the eastern states. In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being sepparated from the little ones…” Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the Prophets house.

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me…He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’…He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother…Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, *“It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” *Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins…I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”

Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called ‘Celestial or plural mariage’” and *“I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such.” *

Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”

Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”

 

[sweetnay]

And here is one more, detailing how Joseph Smith “resuced” a motherless girl, away from her father and into his bed. What an operator.

LUCY WALKER

The Walker family arrived in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841. That summer Lucy’s Mother contracted malaria and died months later in January 1842, leaving ten children. Her Father, John, was heartbroken and his health, “seemed to give way”. Lucy remembers, “The Prophet came to the rescue. He Said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife. You must have a change of scene, a change of climate. You have Just such a family as I could love. My house shall be their home…place the little ones with kind friends, and the four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children…”

The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year mission to the eastern states. In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being sepparated from the little ones…” Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the Prophets house.

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me…He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’…He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother…Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, *“It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” *Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins…I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”

Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called ‘Celestial or plural mariage’” and *“I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such.” *

Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”

Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”

Yup, good ol’ Joe Smith, took lust, made it “holy”, then added “God said”. Nice.

 

[ParkerD]

it’s funny that the LDS don’t see anything wrong with most of the Witnesses leaving the LDS Church or were excommunicated, and that the only ones that remained in the “True Church” were Smith Sr., Hyrum, and Samuel, aka his father and two brothers. All of the Three Witnesses, referred to in the Book of Mormon and D&C, to whom “all things were revealed”, left the church.

hmm…

Religio71,
Hi, again. The LDS would be familiar with the fact that Martin Harris joined the LDS church again later in his life and came to Utah and died in Cache Valley. The LDS would also be very familiar with the difference between a testimony obtained by the witness of the Holy Ghost and the kind of weak foundation that one who seeks for proofs and signs and wonders will have–the kind of foundation that will easily fail when some kind of opposition comes up in their life.

What I have noticed more than anything else on these thread discussing Mormonism, is that the detractors do not often assert their own knowledge of Jesus Christ, that He lives and that their lives are blessed in ways that impact them and their loved ones. It is missing. One wonders why that is, when these are religious discussions. It is to write “against” rather than to write “for.” If the fruits of the spirit were manifest in their lives, they would be rejoicing about those fruits and writing “for” how the gospel has changed them. I wish they would do that–I enjoy reading those kinds of experiences, not to tear them down but to read how their lives have been blessed (not by a sign, but by forgiveness or kindness or a strengthened relationship).

Rebecca,
To say that the Book of Mormon is written in a writing style that matches the way Oliver Cowdery writes, shows a tremendous lack of literary scholarship. Same with the Spaulding text. There simply is no valid comparison. Have a good day.

 

[ParkerD]

Sweetnay,
Anyone who would believe that what you quoted from Lucy Walker was written by her, is not familiar with Victorian prose. That is a fabricated story as it is written–one can easily tell that by the writing style.

 

[MelanieAnne]

He felt the plates and looked at them! Read what he said in the second account.

Yes, he saw them with his “spiritual” eyes.

People can be shown things with their eyes covered & just allowed to touch with their hands and be fooled. They can be told about the objects, and they may even visualize the objects. That doesn’t mean they actual SAW them.

Things seen “supernaturally” can also be described as being seen “magically”. Carnival tricks can be described the same way sometimes.

Bottom line ~ None of the so-called witnesses actually SAW the plates with their physical eyes. Taken together with all the other signs of fraud surrounding the Book of Mormon & what we have is a clear, convincing case for the entire business being one big con. And the fact that Mormons may be nice people doesn’t change that.

 

[MelanieAnne]

However this is not the point. MelanieAnn said that no witness saw the book of mormon. I refuted her claim. See the point? Now of course, I wonder how many exmormons like yourself have never denied their testimony on this forum.

You have never refuted the claim. You have shown evidence of people “seeing” the plates supernaturally. You have not shown that anyone ever actually saw them with their own eyes.

You won’t be able to either, because no one ever did. There’s a good reason for this. It’s because there never were any so-called “Golden Plates”, because the entire story is a fairy tale.

 

[MelanieAnne]

why didn’t Smith just show the plates to the Three Witnesses?

Because the plates didn’t actually exist, so whatever was being used as the “pretend” plates had to be covered, couldn’t actually be viewed.

 

[sweetnay]

Sweetnay,
Anyone who would believe that what you quoted from Lucy Walker was written by her, is not familiar with Victorian prose. That is a fabricated story as it is written–one can easily tell that by the writing style.

Um, wasn’t me who quoted that story, although your response is quite predictable–I suppose if I had to explain away the antics of Smith, my excuses and mental gymnastics routine would be in hyper mode drive as well.

 

[mjf001]

Religio71,
Hi, again. The LDS would be familiar with the fact that Martin Harris joined the LDS church again later in his life and came to Utah and died in Cache Valley. The LDS would also be very familiar with the difference between a testimony obtained by the witness of the Holy Ghost and the kind of weak foundation that one who seeks for proofs and signs and wonders will have–the kind of foundation that will easily fail when some kind of opposition comes up in their life.

What I have noticed more than anything else on these thread discussing Mormonism, is that the detractors do not often assert their own knowledge of Jesus Christ, that He lives and that their lives are blessed in ways that impact them and their loved ones. It is missing. One wonders why that is, when these are religious discussions. It is to write “against” rather than to write “for.” If the fruits of the spirit were manifest in their lives, they would be rejoicing about those fruits and writing “for” how the gospel has changed them. I wish they would do that–I enjoy reading those kinds of experiences, not to tear them down but to read how their lives have been blessed (not by a sign, but by forgiveness or kindness or a strengthened relationship).

Rebecca,
To say that the Book of Mormon is written in a writing style that matches the way Oliver Cowdery writes, shows a tremendous lack of literary scholarship. Same with the Spaulding text. There simply is no valid comparison. Have a good day.

As one of the detractors, I have to ask, what are you talking about? You’ve been here long enough to have read on multiple occasions from many of the detractors that they do indeed have a personal relationship with and knowledge of Our Lord. You should have read on multiple occasions that we do feel the influence of the Holy Spirit. And as for seeking signs and wonders and proofs, please, this is just plain insulting. God gave us the gift of reason, he also gave us the gift of faith, I think he would expect us to use both gifts, wisely.

I joined RCIA as a direct result of a powerful spiritual experience. At the time, exploring the Catholic church was the last thing I wanted to do. I’m getting ready to share my conversion experience, and I will soon, it’s a deeply personal experience, so I’ve been hesitant do so; it is something I want to share when I’m ready. Let me just assure you, because of my experiences, I do believe in God, I do believe that he leads us, sometimes when we don’t think we’re ready. I believe in his Angels. I have a personal relationship with our Lord, more deeply than you can know. When I’m at adoration, at Mass, I often feel his presence.

I am one of those people who say I never had an experience directly related to the LDS - on the other hand, even before my conversion, I can see the hand of God in my life leading me home to His Church. I believed in the Bible as a child, but that is as far as it goes. I never fit in, in part, because while my peers wanted to discuss the BoM and tell BoM stories, I only got excited by the Bible. I’ve read maybe 20 pages of the BoM - and I had to force myself to read that far. When I was finished with that, I could never force myself to do it again. To contrast, I can sit down with the Bible, meaning only to read a small section, and an hour later, I’m still reading (This is usually while I’m reading one of St. Paul’s letters).

I have had many private moments in Church when I felt the comforting presence of the spirit. I’m sure other Catholics on these boards can say the same thing.

In Christ,
Michael

 

[MelanieAnne]

It’s important to note, when discussing “personal relationship with Jesus Christ”, that the “Jesus Christ” of Mormonism is not the same as the Jesus Christ of Christianity. They are clearly different persons, and this is shown by the so-called “Joseph Smith First Vision” which portrays the “Godhead” as something altogether different from that of Christianity.

We Catholics have a personal relationship with Jesus and many, if not all of us, could testify to deeply spiritual experiences, but we will not have the same experience as a Mormon because the Mormon Jesus is a different person. However for anyone to assert that Catholics do not have a profoundly spiritual relationship with Jesus is just ignorant.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,
To say that the Book of Mormon is written in a writing style that matches the way Oliver Cowdery writes, shows a tremendous lack of literary scholarship. Same with the Spaulding text. There simply is no valid comparison. Have a good day.

Parker, you are funny. Thou knowest any man can speaketh for God. The actual usage of the language in the BoM is pure 19th century. Other than the parts that are plagiarized straight out of the KJV.

PS: Maybe someday you will listen to the Holy Spirit and allow God to guide you Home.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s important to note, when discussing “personal relationship with Jesus Christ”, that the “Jesus Christ” of Mormonism is not the same as the Jesus Christ of Christianity. They are clearly different persons, and this is shown by the so-called “Joseph Smith First Vision” which portrays the “Godhead” as something altogether different from that of Christianity.

We Catholics have a personal relationship with Jesus and many, if not all of us, could testify to deeply spiritual experiences, but we will not have the same experience as a Mormon because the Mormon Jesus is a different person. However for anyone to assert that Catholics do not have a profoundly spiritual relationship with Jesus is just ignorant.

They have a basic understanding and knowledge, truth braided in with error. If they can unravel the braid, there is a strand in there that can be followed to their Salvation.

 

[MelanieAnne]

They have a basic understanding and knowledge, truth braided in with error. If they can unravel the braid, there is a strand in there that can be followed to their Salvation.

Agreed. However the “braided in error” creates such confusion it makes finding the Truth very challenging!

 

[why_me]

Bottom line ~ None of the so-called witnesses actually SAW the plates with their physical eyes. Taken together with all the other signs of fraud surrounding the Book of Mormon & what we have is a clear, convincing case for the entire business being one big con. And the fact that Mormons may be nice people doesn’t change that.

You are obviously not reading very carefully or you are afraid of discovering your understanding is the wrong one. I already showed you where John Whitmer claimed to have seen and touched the plates. He also overturned the pages to see writing on both sides. But as usual you ignore the evidence and continue to mislead people. Why? I have no idea but your credibility is suffering because of it.

Here we go again for the second time:

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

Now of course you can continue ot mislead people but I hope that you will change your story.

 

[why_me]

Because the plates didn’t actually exist, so whatever was being used as the “pretend” plates had to be covered, couldn’t actually be viewed.

Again you ignore the evidence that I posted to mislead people. Why? John Whitmer and the other eight witnesses saw and handled the plates.

 

[why_me]

A maze of lies. Complexity is not an indicator of truth. I think you know that.

One liners do not work. One can say the same about the catholic church. And people have…but they are mainly protestant.

 

[why_me]

it’s funny that the LDS don’t see anything wrong with most of the Witnesses leaving the LDS Church or were excommunicated, and that the only ones that remained in the “True Church” were Smith Sr., Hyrum, and Samuel, aka his father and two brothers. All of the Three Witnesses, referred to in the Book of Mormon and D&C, to whom “all things were revealed”, left the church.

hmm…

What is interesting is that even though some of the witnesses left, they did not deny what they saw. Now as you know, you left the lds church and here you are bashing it. And that is okay. It is human nature. But the witnesses did not do such a thing. And that is quite unusual, Right? They all adhered to their story even on their deathbed. Now if you were one of the witnesses and you knew that it was a fraud and all make believe and that you actually saw nothing…I do think that you would be howling the news like a wolf to all who want to hear…right?

 

[why_me]

The Strangite Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. James Strang was one of the people up for succession of Joseph Smith as Prophet. He too claimed to receive Plates after being directed by an angel, incuding the Voree Plates and the Plates of Laban. Interestingly, both Smith and Strang had many of their witnesses defect in some manner, with many of Smith’s witnesses leaving his church or being excommunicated, and many of Strang’s witnesses denying his Plates and leaving his church.

strangite.org/Welcome.htm

The Strang witnesses recanted and said that it was a fraud. And down went the church…

lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/the-james-strang-plates-notes-from-dr-peterson/

 

[why_me]

why didn’t Smith just show the plates to the Three Witnesses?

The mormon response: go ask the angel who showed the plates. Why ask Joseph Smith?