Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

[twopekinguys]

You are obviously not reading very carefully or you are afraid of discovering your understanding is the wrong one. I already showed you where John Whitmer claimed to have seen and touched the plates. He also overturned the pages to see writing on both sides. But as usual you ignore the evidence and continue to mislead people. Why? I have no idea but your credibility is suffering because of it.

Here we go again for the second time:

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

Now of course you can continue ot mislead people but I hope that you will change your story.

Of course, we could always use the good old mormon standby in refuting all of this.

We don’t know if it was transcribed correctly.

 

[why_me]

Here is something else that was said by Whitmer in his “An Address to All Believers in Christ”. LDS like to say that Whitmer maintained his testimony of the Book of Mormon until the end of his life, which he did. Here is another heavenly revelation received by Whitmer, after he was excommunicated:

“If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to “separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them.” In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church and many of the members had gone deep into error and blindness.”

Seems like God wasn’t pleased with the true Church…Whitmer then founded his own version of the LDS religion, the Church of Christ (Whitmerite).

Whitmer like Oliver did not support polygamy. Thus he left the church but never denied his testimony of the book of mormon even on his death bed.

 

[why_me]

Of course, we could always use the good old mormon standby in refuting all of this.

We don’t know if it was transcribed correctly.

The point: Melanie keeps to her story that no one saw the plates regardless of what the witnesses said. That is the point.

 

[jargon631]

With all of the evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that mormonism is a sham, why do people still buy into it? It almost makes me think that reason will not always work in apologetics. its as if mormonism (and islam among others) trivialize faith by making it appear unreasonable.

well…if a person is born into the religion, and indoctrinated all their life, then they dont perceive it as a sham…fd

 

[why_me]

And here is one more, detailing how Joseph Smith “resuced” a motherless girl, away from her father and into his bed. What an operator.

LUCY WALKER

The Walker family arrived in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841. That summer Lucy’s Mother contracted malaria and died months later in January 1842, leaving ten children. Her Father, John, was heartbroken and his health, “seemed to give way”. Lucy remembers, “The Prophet came to the rescue. He Said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife. You must have a change of scene, a change of climate. You have Just such a family as I could love. My house shall be their home…place the little ones with kind friends, and the four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children…”

The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year mission to the eastern states. In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being sepparated from the little ones…” Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the Prophets house.

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’ My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me…He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’…He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage. Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family. That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked. “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?” Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother…Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience. No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour. Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”. He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, *“It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.” *Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins…I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”

Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer. She couldn’t sleep the entire night. Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called ‘Celestial or plural mariage’” and *“I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such.” *

Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843. At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel. Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”

Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”

Not to rain on your parade here but Lucy was no bimbo. She was not going to be sealed to Joseph Smith. However, she prayed about it and received a powerful witness that the principle was correct and she agreed. She died a faithful member of the lds church. See underlined part of your post above.

 

[why_me]

Wow. This is quite a discussion, like all the Mormon threads. I thought I would follow “why me”'s lead and cut and paste too.

The following excerpt is from www.wivesojosepphsmith.org, and this is the story of one of his wives.

Did you know Joseph Smith acquired more than 30 wives in TWO YEARS?? And he “knew” them all, in the Biblical sense. He didn’'t waste anytime; marriages were consummated immediately.

My Mormon friend offered that Smiths polygamy was a kind of heroism since in those rough pioneer days woman needed protection. Then I re-read some of these stories and realized that a lot of these women wer ALREADY married!! Anyway, here is the story of just one [WARNING: Brace yourself: Smith was a first class creep!]:

ZINA HUNTINGTON JACOBS

In 1839, the Huntington family arrived in Nauvoo, along with daughter, Zina. Within months, Zina’s Mother died from the malaria epidemic which claimed the lives of many of the early Nauvoo settlers. About this same time, Zina met and was courted by Henry B. Jacobs, a handsome and talented musician. Sometime during Henry’s courtship of Zina, Joseph Smith explained to Zina the “principle of plural marriage” and asked her to become one of his wives. Zina remembers the conflict she felt about Joseph’s proposal, and her budding relationship with Henry: “O dear Heaven, grant me wisdom! Help me to know the way. O Lord, my god, let thy will be done and with thine arm around about to guide, shield and direct…” Zina declined Joseph’s proposal and chose to marry Henry. They were married on March 7, 1841.

Zina later wrote, that within months of her marriage to Henry, “[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life’”. Joseph further explained that, “the Lord had made it known to him she was to be his celestial wife.”

Zina chose to obey this commandment and married Joseph on October 27. She later recalled, “When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriag…I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church…I made a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated again to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved…”. Zina continued, *“It was something too sacred to be talked about; it was more to me than life or death. I never breathed it for years”. *
Zina’s first husband, Henry, was aware of this wedding and they continued to live in the same home. He believed that “whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God’s authorities bend to the reasoning of any man.” Over the next few years, Henry was sent on several missions to Chicago, Western New York and Tennessee. Henry missed his family and wrote home often. One of Henry’s missionary companions, John D. Lee, said, “Jacobs was bragging about his wife and two children, what a true, virtuous, lovely woman she was. He almost worshiped her…”.

Shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, Zina married Brigham Young. In May of 1846, Henry was sent on a mission to England. In Henry’s absence, Zina began to live openly as Brigham’s wife and remained so throughout her life in Utah. Henry seemed to struggle with this arrangement and later wrote to Zina, “…the same affection is there…But I feel alone…I do not Blame Eny person…may the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham…all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God Joseph.”

She also obtained her own testimony of the truthfulness of the principle. See underlined part of your post.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Again you ignore the evidence that I posted to mislead people. Why? John Whitmer and the other eight witnesses saw and handled the plates.

I’m not ignoring your so-called evidence. I submit that what is being offered as “evidence” is simply not factual.

Hence, I am not misleading people. Perhaps you are?

In any event, I will no longer read your posts as I have become convinced you are not interested in truth, but only in what you choose to believe. The fact that you pick and choose the elements of various faiths that you choose to subscribe to shows that you are loyal to no one but yourself, not even God.

Have a nice life.

 

[ParkerD]

As one of the detractors, I have to ask, what are you talking about? You’ve been here long enough to have read on multiple occasions from many of the detractors that they do indeed have a personal relationship with and knowledge of Our Lord. You should have read on multiple occasions that we do feel the influence of the Holy Spirit. And as for seeking signs and wonders and proofs, please, this is just plain insulting. God gave us the gift of reason, he also gave us the gift of faith, I think he would expect us to use both gifts, wisely.

I joined RCIA as a direct result of a powerful spiritual experience. At the time, exploring the Catholic church was the last thing I wanted to do. I’m getting ready to share my conversion experience, and I will soon, it’s a deeply personal experience, so I’ve been hesitant do so; it is something I want to share when I’m ready. Let me just assure you, because of my experiences, I do believe in God, I do believe that he leads us, sometimes when we don’t think we’re ready. I believe in his Angels. I have a personal relationship with our Lord, more deeply than you can know. When I’m at adoration, at Mass, I often feel his presence.

I am one of those people who say I never had an experience directly related to the LDS - on the other hand, even before my conversion, I can see the hand of God in my life leading me home to His Church. I believed in the Bible as a child, but that is as far as it goes. I never fit in, in part, because while my peers wanted to discuss the BoM and tell BoM stories, I only got excited by the Bible. I’ve read maybe 20 pages of the BoM - and I had to force myself to read that far. When I was finished with that, I could never force myself to do it again. To contrast, I can sit down with the Bible, meaning only to read a small section, and an hour later, I’m still reading (This is usually while I’m reading one of St. Paul’s letters).

I have had many private moments in Church when I felt the comforting presence of the spirit. I’m sure other Catholics on these boards can say the same thing.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael,
Thanks. I appreciate reading this. I get excited by the Bible, too. I’m glad you feel the comforting presence of the spirit in your life. There is deep peace and joy in that comforting presence. Have a good day.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, you are funny. Thou knowest any man can speaketh for God. The actual usage of the language in the BoM is pure 19th century. Other than the parts that are plagiarized straight out of the KJV.

PS: Maybe someday you will listen to the Holy Spirit and allow God to guide you Home.

Hi, Rebecca J,
One familiar with authenticity versus “cheap copy” can detect the difference, easily. Your little sentence here is a good example. Anyone could create “cheap copy” and say it came from God, but there would be no authenticity in it. Easily seen as a sham.

 

[PaulDupre]

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.

Remember, this is the same John Whitmer that Joseph Smith characterized as “the blackest of liars”.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi, Rebecca J,
One familiar with authenticity versus “cheap copy” can detect the difference, easily. Your little sentence here is a good example. Anyone could create “cheap copy” and say it came from God, but there would be no authenticity in it. Easily seen as a sham.

Non-Mormons see the BoM as obvious cheap copy, and a sham.

 

[Religio71]

Whitmer like Oliver did not support polygamy. Thus he left the church but never denied his testimony of the book of mormon even on his death bed.

But I thought “only a small percentage of the LDS actually practiced polygamy”? So why would he need to leave God’s Church especially with such a supernatural revelation?

 

[Religio71]

What is interesting is that even though some of the witnesses left, they did not deny what they saw. Now as you know, you left the lds church and here you are bashing it. And that is okay. It is human nature. But the witnesses did not do such a thing. And that is quite unusual, Right? They all adhered to their story even on their deathbed. Now if you were one of the witnesses and you knew that it was a fraud and all make believe and that you actually saw nothing…I do think that you would be howling the news like a wolf to all who want to hear…right?

Of course I wouldn’t stand up for the claims of the LDS Church now that I have left it! As a Catholic, I don’t buy that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that he received gold plates, that the Church apostasized, that it needed restoring, etc. I do strongly believe that it is based in falsehoods. Sure there are nice people in the LDS Church, I completely agree. I’ve also met nice Scientologists, nice Buddhists, nice Muslims, etc. There’s a difference between being nice and a faith being true.

As far as the witnesses, people say and do many things. Every day, something happens where we wonder “how could they do that?”, so no, I don’t think that it’s automatically logical that they would have proclaimed that the plates story was false. Did you know that there are quite a number of Scientologists that live that “religion”, but decide that the techniques are real, so they practice it outside of the “church” of scientology? Even after learning about the space aliens? People do and say many things, so no it isn’t always “human nature” to do something.

 

[Religio71]

The mormon response: go ask the angel who showed the plates. Why ask Joseph Smith?

There are quite a few variations as to what happened to the plates, just like there are quite a few variations to all of the stories related to the beginnings of the LDS Church, including the First Vision.

 

[why_me]

I’m not ignoring your so-called evidence. I submit that what is being offered as “evidence” is simply not factual.

Hence, I am not misleading people. Perhaps you are?

In any event, I will no longer read your posts as I have become convinced you are not interested in truth, but only in what you choose to believe. The fact that you pick and choose the elements of various faiths that you choose to subscribe to shows that you are loyal to no one but yourself, not even God.

Have a nice life.

You stated a thesis. I have refuted your thesis. You state that the account is not factual but offer no proof. You then attack my belief system. No problem. You just now need to change your thesis that no one saw the plates.

 

[why_me]

Remember, this is the same John Whitmer that Joseph Smith characterized as “the blackest of liars”.

All the more reason for John to tell the truth. See my point?

 

[why_me]

Of course I wouldn’t stand up for the claims of the LDS Church now that I have left it! As a Catholic, I don’t buy that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that he received gold plates, that the Church apostasized, that it needed restoring, etc. I do strongly believe that it is based in falsehoods. Sure there are nice people in the LDS Church, I completely agree. I’ve also met nice Scientologists, nice Buddhists, nice Muslims, etc. There’s a difference between being nice and a faith being true.

As far as the witnesses, people say and do many things. Every day, something happens where we wonder “how could they do that?”, so no, I don’t think that it’s automatically logical that they would have proclaimed that the plates story was false. Did you know that there are quite a number of Scientologists that live that “religion”, but decide that the techniques are real, so they practice it outside of the “church” of scientology? Even after learning about the space aliens? People do and say many things, so no it isn’t always “human nature” to do something.

What was the point of this entire thread? Someone stated that the lds religion is obviously false so why are people still mormon? I am posting why people remain mormon. It is not so obviously false.

 

[why_me]

But I thought “only a small percentage of the LDS actually practiced polygamy”? So why would he need to leave God’s Church especially with such a supernatural revelation?

I don’t know. Look at me. I received a powerful witness of the truthfulness of the book of mormon at 18 years of age when I prayed about it. And here I am going to catholic mass. But one thing I do know since Oliver and David left over polygamy that would have given them a wonderful opportunity to withdraw their testimonies. But they didn’t. Now if I were JS I would consider myself like Lou Gehrig and claim to be the luckiest man in the world. And I wouldn’t believe my luck, if I were a fraudster.

 

[ricko]

Parker, what were you saying about FEAR in the Catholic Church? Does not the sight of an angel with a drawn sword and swearing to kill constitute fear?

Zina later wrote, that within months of her marriage to Henry, “[Joseph] sent word to me by my brother, saying, ‘Tell Zina, I put it off and put it off till an angel with a drawn sword stood by me and told me if I did not establish that principle upon the earth I would lose my position and my life’”. Joseph further explained that, “the Lord had made it known to him she was to be his celestial wife.”

And this:

He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

 

[Religio71]

What was the point of this entire thread? Someone stated that the lds religion is obviously false so why are people still mormon? I am posting why people remain mormon. It is not so obviously false.

Ok…so you have shown why people would remain Mormon. Seeing that this is a Catholic forum, we Catholics that have been LDS also show why we left, what is false (from our point of view as Catholics believe that we have the fullness of Truth and are the true Church of Christ on earth and in Heaven), and various inconsistencies. For Catholics that believe this, it is obviously false. You obviously don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the Truth, since you defend JS and all of his claims, including that the LDS Church has the priesthood authority, thus negating the authority of the Catholic Church, thus it is completely weird for you to even claim that you’re both, and partaking in the Real Presence which LDS believe is a corrupt doctrine.