Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

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Tell you what: you show me anything that can possibly be construed (by the most critical of watchdogs) as ‘racism’ in the church for the last thirty years.

The thing is, if the “LDS people” were all that racist to begin with, that announcement on that June morning in 1978 would have destroyed the church. There would have been riots, demonstrations, people leaving en mass, starting up their own version of the church that continued the policy of restricting the priesthood…

But, wow, there wasn’t any of that. Yes, some people left, but not by any means ‘many’…and we were much better off without the ones who did leave. The rest of us greeted the announcement with joy and enthusiasm.

Not precisely the reaction of a racist people, don’t you think?
I think that generally, the LDS were not racists in and around the times that the 1978 Revelation came about. In fact, I recently read some articles from the Deseret News archives from the weeks after. Interesting stuff. Many LDS in fact thought that “it was about time” for this to happen. So while generally the LDS people were not racist, many did see the priesthood ban as a racist teaching, and unfortunately, no other Christian church has had such an institutionalized teaching, especially when it relates to something so foundational to a faith.
 
Trust me, Diana doesn’t need your help. She does quite well on her own without it.

If you would notice that the conversations between Rebecca and Diana are quite equal in their tone, and “attacks”.

If you would look through some of their conversations, you would see many cases of cordial discussion, including comments about meeting for coffee, if I remember correctly.
Well, she gets coffee. I get the diet coke.
She pays. 😉
Your barf comment shows a great deal of immaturity, and truly doesn’t add anything to the conversation.

Now, Diana, and Rebecca, I want you to hold hands, sing Kumbaya, then go to a neutral corner. lol
Only if I get to sing soprano…
I do truly enjoy your interactions.
Thanks…

I think…
 
Tell you what: you show me anything that can possibly be construed (by the most critical of watchdogs) as ‘racism’ in the church for the last thirty years.

The thing is, if the “LDS people” were all that racist to begin with, that announcement on that June morning in 1978 would have destroyed the church. There would have been riots, demonstrations, people leaving en mass, starting up their own version of the church that continued the policy of restricting the priesthood…

But, wow, there wasn’t any of that. Yes, some people left, but not by any means ‘many’…and we were much better off without the ones who did leave. The rest of us greeted the announcement with joy and enthusiasm.

Not precisely the reaction of a racist people, don’t you think?
It is really quite amazing that catholics are bringing this up. They must know the controversy with the Jewish people and the catholic church. I remember one former jewish friend telling me that in the past catholic church was antisemitic because they accused jews of killing christ. Not to mention he claimed the silence of the catholic church during the holocaust was also an antisemitic act. The relationship between jewish leaders and the catholic church was not that close because of past history.

My point: all religions have a checkered past. Best to leave sleeping dogs sleep.
 
Where have I bashed a catholic or the catholic church? I really don’t need to defend mormonism because mormonism can defend itself. However, since so called catholics bash the mormon church by implying all sorts of things about mormons and mormonism, I feel it necessary to defend the faith of my children.
I think that priests can learn a lot from Father O’ Malley. In fact, we can all learn a lot from him, especially in Going My Way where he shows thought, kindness, respect, and charity toward others, especially in the end of the film where he gives the old priest a beautiful present. The last lines are wonderful.
We all can learn from Father O’Mally. He was a good priest. **And yes, priests also need to learn what it means to be a good priest **and father o’malley is a fine example. **Maybe you should watch the movie and learn something **instead of nitpicking your way through the threads. Also, you need to be balanced. Some of **your so-called catholic friends **on this forum can learn from father o’malley and you should nitpick your way through their posts to be sure that they are living up to the catholic faith.
Easy to say but more difficult to prove. What you need to do is begin a speaking tour to mormon areas and give lectures about it. Then you can pass out catholic leaflets to the mormons. I am sure that you will be successful with your speaking tour. Good luck!
I haven’t seen much productivie dialogue on the mormon threads. We have one liners and mormon explanations, more one liners, more mormon explanations etc. Occasionally there is a gem to discuss but mostly it is just plain nagative posts about mormons and mormonism.
I think that I am the most catholic poster on these threads with a good catholic message.
Can you show me where I have bashed catholics? You seem to make statements without support or evidence. And that is okay. I know one thing however. No such thread could exist on the mormonapologetic site. It would be closed immediately if a thread is started which states: Why are people catholic considering it is obviously false? And that says much about mormons. Such contentious threads are of the devil.
**It is really quite amazing that catholics are bringing this up. They must know the controversy with the Jewish people and the catholic church. I remember one former jewish friend telling me that in the past catholic church was antisemitic because they accused jews of killing christ. Not to mention he claimed the silence of the catholic church during the holocaust was also an antisemitic act. The relationship between jewish leaders and the catholic church was not that close because of past history. **

My point: all religions have a checkered past. Best to leave sleeping dogs sleep.
 
…and unfortunately, no other Christian church has had such an institutionalized teaching, especially when it relates to something so foundational to a faith.
If you would be journeying in the south in the 1960’s, you will discover segregated churches in protestantism. I don’t know if this would mean that certain protestant churches were racist but it certainly was a racist policy. America is and has been a racist society and all faiths were affected by the racism that existed in that society.

Here is a good presentation about blacks and the priesthood:

mormonstories.org/?p=83

This is the best presentation on the subject and it is not necessarily positive.
 
exactly Stephen. Catholics, let us not waste our time with Why Me any longer.
 
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Stephen168:
My point was that all religions can be bashed. And that is the truth. Best to let sleeping dogs sleep. Catholics need to remember if they attack they can be attacked. No one really wins. But so far the mormons have been polite and are not attacking as they can certainly do if they wished to.
 
Mormons are generally speaking a polite people. The truth is that mormons could make catholic lives misable on these threads that attack the mormon faith. There is enough out there to lob attacks at the catholic church and make all the so called catholics be on the defensive. But mormons are too polite and do not by an enlarge engage in such attacks.

For example, how would catholics respond to the fact that priests during the Inquisition approached women in confession with the offer of sex or report what they said to the Inquisitors? Quite damaging and yet the information is on the Net. But is it true? It would not really matter… since it is on the Net, the catholics would have to disprove it and then experience more attacks by countering their defense.

It is so easy to attack someone’s church…easy as eating grandma’s apple pie. But mormons do not do it and that says much about the mormon character. 🙂
 
As far as Limbo goes, people are free to believe or not believe in Limbo, just as they are free to believe or not believe various Marian apparitions. Limbo has never been official doctrine. However Limbo is doctrinally correct. There has been no change of stance on whether Limbo exists or not.
 
exactly Stephen. Catholics, let us not waste our time with Why Me any longer.
I am just pointing out a truth. It is easy to attack someone’s religion. No one is a member of a perfect church because people are imperfect. Why attack the lds church about blacks when one’s own church can also be attacked by bashers. No faith is spotless in history.

Catholics would not like being attacked and so why would mormons? But so far mormons have been rather polite and have not done so. And that says much about the mormons.
 
I think that generally, the LDS were not racists in and around the times that the 1978 Revelation came about. In fact, I recently read some articles from the Deseret News archives from the weeks after. Interesting stuff. Many LDS in fact thought that “it was about time” for this to happen. So while generally the LDS people were not racist, many did see the priesthood ban as a racist teaching, and unfortunately, no other Christian church has had such an institutionalized teaching, especially when it relates to something so foundational to a faith.
It MAY be that (and this is the purest speculation on my part, mind you, evidenced by nothing at all but my own instinct) that the policy was put in place as a result of the racist context of the time; both of the non-Mormon neighbors and that which Mormons brought into the church when they converted. I think, perhaps, that it was left in place until the members of the church were not only ready, but were actively praying, for it to be removed. We had to earn it, in other words. Not the blacks…they were ultimately fine. After all, this mortal life isn’t all that big a slice of eternity.

but WE, the ‘whites’…we had to earn it.

I could be completely wrong about that, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I’m not, or at least, not wholly.

OK, we have two groups here, mine and yours.

Mine had a racist policy in place for a hundred and fifty years. We supported it and enforced it. Then it was changed; we claim it was changed through revelation; divine inspiration. That change was greeted almost universally with “HALLELUJAH!” and “it’s about time” and joy. Since that day there has been no hint, not even the merest whisper, of racism in our policies or our practices; we have black bishops, stake presidents, general authorities, probably an apostle fairly soon.

Yours has several proclamations from Rome about the equality of men; that blacks were equal to whites in all ways; that slavery was an excommunicatable offense, that slave owners were to be excommunicated. You have given me examples of this from…what was it…1300 or so? Something like that. Certainly no later than the 1400’s.

However, in spite of that declaration, no slave owner has ever been excommunicated. In spite of that declaration, priests and organizations of priests owned slaves. In spite of that declaration, it took three hundred years for a black priest to be ordained in North America. In spite of that declaration, it is not at all certain that there have been any black Popes, and the first confirmed black Cardinal was not ordained until the late twentieth century.

Individual Catholics have fought for the slave, and for people of color…but as an institution? Not so much. Consider; doing so was so rare an experience that those who did were made Saints.

You cannot dispute the timelines, or the facts of the matter for either group, Rebecca. I COULD say that you, as a Catholic, have no right to criticize Mormons for racism, and on a purely emotional level, I would be correct. However, whether either one of us likes it or not, both our respective belief systems have been racist. You claim that ours was worse than yours because ours was ‘official…’ and I can claim that yours is worse than ours because your entire organization didn’t even bother to pay lip service to your official statement regarding race, and in practice you were far more racist than we ever were…and it took you three times longer, even with your official proclamation of racial equality, to make that an actual policy, than it did with us.

I could do that.

In fact, I just did.

But the real point is, we are both the products of faiths that make similar claims for ourselves; similar claims of authority; we think we are right, you think you are. Any criticism of one by the other (especially in this area) can be turned right around…if ‘racism’ proves that Mormonism is false, then your own history of it proves that Catholicism is false.

I suggest we both take joy in the progress both faiths have made, and let it alone now.
 
As far as Limbo goes, people are free to believe or not believe in Limbo, just as they are free to believe or not believe various Marian apparitions. Limbo has never been official doctrine. However Limbo is doctrinally correct. There has been no change of stance on whether Limbo exists or not.
But when I was a boy it was taught in catechism as something that actually exists. And catholics of my generation can attest to that fact.
 
It MAY be that (and this is the purest speculation on my part, mind you, evidenced by nothing at all but my own instinct) that the policy was put in place as a result of the racist context of the time; both of the non-Mormon neighbors and that which Mormons brought into the church when they converted. I think, perhaps, that it was left in place until the members of the church were not only ready, but were actively praying, for it to be removed. We had to earn it, in other words. Not the blacks…they were ultimately fine. After all, this mortal life isn’t all that big a slice of eternity.

I suggest we both take joy in the progress both faiths have made, and let it alone now.
If you listen to podcast you will learn why it was put into effect. Your last sentence is my point exactly.

mormonstories.org/?p=83
 
Stephen168
Regular Member Join Date: November 6, 2006
Location: Evergreen State (brown side)
Posts: 1,087
Religion: Catholic

Re: Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by why me
Mormons are generally speaking a polite people. The truth is that mormons could make catholic lives misable on these threads that attack the mormon faith. There is enough out there to lob attacks at the catholic church and make all the so called catholics be on the defensive. But mormons are too polite and do not by an enlarge engage in such attacks.

For example, how would catholics respond to the fact that priests during the Inquisition approached women in confession with the offer of sex or report what they said to the Inquisitors? Quite damaging and yet the information is on the Net. But is it true? It would not really matter… since it is on the Net, the catholics would have to disprove it and then experience more attacks by countering their defense.

It is so easy to attack someone’s church…easy as eating grandma’s apple pie. But mormons do not do it and that says much about the mormon character.

I found my information on the internet just as catholics have found their information about the mormon church on the internet. And such information could be used to bash the catholic faith. But so far, no mormon has used such information. If they did, you would need to prove it false and how would you do so? It is so easy to attack the mormon faith and you certainly do a good job doing so. But…it can also be done against the catholic church. And in the end, who would win with such attacks? No one. Best to let sleeping dogs sleep.
 
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Stephen168:
You know Stephen I am teaching you a good lesson. Attacks can get attacks back. And protestants and mormons can do so on these threads but they would probably get banned. But no church is shielded against attacks. Atheists attack all churches and religions and they certainly also have good arguments about the cruel behaviour that has been done in the name of religion.
 
Yes, diana, I have heard of that reasoning before (that the ban came into effect (or God never ended the ban prior to 1978) because of an unworthy surrounding society. It’s always interesting to note the views of Black LDS on this issue, and most seem okay with the above reasoning.

Someone else can comment on priests or priestly organizations owning slaves, as I am not as read in that area. However the difference I see is this: the Catholic Church’s priesthood has been open to all males that desire it forever. There have been black bishops for a long period of time. We not only have to look at the number of black bishops and priests, but also the percentage of such members and the timeline for evangelization of those areas. Also note that people are not “ordained” a Cardinal. The highest ordination in the Catholic Church is that of bishop. We have had black bishops for centuries.

In contrast, the LDS Church had an institutionalized doctrine of not ordaining those of African descent to the priesthood. When one thinks of the role that the priesthood plays in Mormonism, it was quite devastating spiritually. Yes, Blacks could always be members of the church, but it is through the priesthood that males fully participate in the LDS Church. Even if priests owned slaves (again, someone else can comment on that, I know nothing about it!), the Catholic Church never stated that Blacks were somehow not the same as Whites and others as to hold the priesthood and be Endowed, Sealed, and other ordinances. I remember one black LDS on the 30 year anniversary of the Priesthood Revelation video said something to the effect of “blacks coveted the priesthood, but were unable to hold it”.

But again, black LDS today don’t seem to care much about the ban.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by why me
Mormons are generally speaking a polite people. The truth is that mormons could make catholic lives misable on these threads that attack the mormon faith. There is enough out there to lob attacks at the catholic church and make all the so called catholics be on the defensive. But mormons are too polite and do not by an enlarge engage in such attacks.

For example, how would catholics respond to the fact that priests during the Inquisition approached women in confession with the offer of sex or report what they said to the Inquisitors? Quite damaging and yet the information is on the Net. But is it true? It would not really matter… since it is on the Net, the catholics would have to disprove it and then experience more attacks by countering their defense.

It is so easy to attack someone’s church…easy as eating grandma’s apple pie. But mormons do not do it and that says much about the mormon character.

I found my information on the internet just as catholics have found their information about the mormon church on the internet. And such information could be used to bash the catholic faith. But so far, no mormon has used such information. If they did, you would need to prove it false and how would you do so? It is so easy to attack the mormon faith and you certainly do a good job doing so. But…it can also be done against the catholic church. And in the end, who would win with such attacks? No one. Best to let sleeping dogs sleep.
 
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