Why are people mormon considering it is obvioulsy fabricated?

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1st off, there is nothing in the catholic faith the can contradict science or the truth. are you sure you’re not mormon?
The apparitions of Mary would contradict science since science would not be able to prove them true. But science would make a good attempt to prove them wrong. Likewise for the apparitions of Jesus in Saint Faustina’a diary. Science would not be able to prove them true but it can make a good attempt at proving them wrong.

But this also goes for the visions of Joseph Smith. In all these cases, it all rests on faith and not evidence according to one’s belief system.

I think that the poster describes himself or herself as agnostic.
 
Add to all this things like the Kinder Hook Plates and the Egyptian papyras (plus the whole historical thing) and it doesnt look good.
The kinderhook plates are interesting. However, if Joseph were a fraudster he would have dismissed them immediately. But I do think that that he did consider them for a moment. But I don’t think that he fell for the hoax. Critics often site the journals of his secretary William Clayton as an example of JS attempting a translation but we only have his word for it. Years ago the lds church published an article about the kinderhook plates in their magazine:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1981.htm/ensign%20august%201981.htm/kinderhook%20plates%20brought%20to%20joseph%20smith%20appear%20to%20be%20a%20nineteenthcentury%20hoax.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

It gives a pretty good commentary. And here is the conclusion:

Another possible explanation for the hoax never having been carried through may lie in Robert Wiley’s desire to sell the plates as genuine artifacts. For him to have exposed the hoax before the attempted sale would, of course, have scuttled any negotiations; and to expose it afterward may have landed the sellers and conspirators in jail for attempted fraud—turning the tables and making them the object of ridicule instead of Joseph Smith.

Significantly, there is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. And this brings us to the other side of the story, for those of us who believe that Joseph Smith was the Lord’s prophet: Isn’t it natural to expect that he would be guided to understand that these plates were not of value as far as his mission was concerned? That other members may have been less judicious and not guided in the same way cannot be laid at the Prophet’s feet. Many people, now as well as then, have an appetite for hearsay and a hope for “easy evidence” to bolster or even substitute for personal spirituality and hard-won faith that comes from close familiarity with truth and communion with God.

So it is that in the 100-year battle of straw men and straw arguments, Joseph Smith needs no defense—he simply did not fall for the scheme. And with that understood, it is perhaps time that the Kinderhook plates be retired to the limbo of other famous faked antiquities.

These plates are often brought up by critics who just gleam tidbits from the internet. But the story is much more complicated than what first meets the eye.

But one thing I do know: if JS were a fraudster he would have dismissed them with a laugh and a chuckle. And in the end, he did dismiss them but after a little consideration. Why critics take up the other argument I have no idea.
 
The kinderhook plates are interesting. However, if Joseph were a fraudster he would have dismissed them immediately. But I do think that that he did consider them for a moment. But I don’t think that he fell for the hoax. Critics often site the journals of his secretary William Clayton as an example of JS attempting a translation but we only have his word for it. Years ago the lds church published an article about the kinderhook plates in their magazine:

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1981.htm/ensign%20august%201981.htm/kinderhook%20plates%20brought%20to%20joseph%20smith%20appear%20to%20be%20a%20nineteenthcentury%20hoax.htm?fn=document-frame.htm&f=templates&2.0

It gives a pretty good commentary. And here is the conclusion:

Another possible explanation for the hoax never having been carried through may lie in Robert Wiley’s desire to sell the plates as genuine artifacts. For him to have exposed the hoax before the attempted sale would, of course, have scuttled any negotiations; and to expose it afterward may have landed the sellers and conspirators in jail for attempted fraud—turning the tables and making them the object of ridicule instead of Joseph Smith.

Significantly, there is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. And this brings us to the other side of the story, for those of us who believe that Joseph Smith was the Lord’s prophet: Isn’t it natural to expect that he would be guided to understand that these plates were not of value as far as his mission was concerned? That other members may have been less judicious and not guided in the same way cannot be laid at the Prophet’s feet. Many people, now as well as then, have an appetite for hearsay and a hope for “easy evidence” to bolster or even substitute for personal spirituality and hard-won faith that comes from close familiarity with truth and communion with God.

So it is that in the 100-year battle of straw men and straw arguments, Joseph Smith needs no defense—he simply did not fall for the scheme. And with that understood, it is perhaps time that the Kinderhook plates be retired to the limbo of other famous faked antiquities.

These plates are often brought up by critics who just gleam tidbits from the internet. But the story is much more complicated than what first meets the eye.

But one thing I do know: if JS were a fraudster he would have dismissed them with a laugh and a chuckle. And in the end, he did dismiss them but after a little consideration. Why critics take up the other argument I have no idea.
That doesnt show anything, just more mormon double talk.

If Smith was really a “prophet”, he would have dismissed them straight away. He didnt and another wonderful story was created.
 
That doesnt show anything, just more mormon double talk.

If Smith was really a “prophet”, he would have dismissed them straight away. He didnt and another wonderful story was created.
It is easy to describe the other position as double talk. But to engage in a discussion is much more difficult. Who knows what a prophet should do or would do. If a prophet gets his wisdom and revelation from god, you are assuming that god would have immediately have given him a revelation without even asking for one. The article was in a mormon magazine for mormon readers. I don’t think that anyone took the article as double talk.

If Joseph were a fraudster he would have dismissed them immediately with a chuckle and a laugh. Think about it. Here we have a con with the book of mormon complete with plates story. The con according to the catholics on this board was initiated by Joseph Smith. Suddenly two decades later, someone tries to pull the same con on Joseph by showing some plates. How would you react if you were the ‘conman’ Joseph? You wouldn’t give a chuckle?
 
Whenever a Catholic brings up some ugly fact about Mormonism which the Mormon feels helpless to defend; it seems the Mormon wants to attack something about the Catholic Church. I’ve never understood why Mormons do this because it does nothing to change the ugly fact of Mormonism. It also seems to be used to just change subjects after being knocked back on their testimony in a current discussion.

When it is impossible to attack the Catholic Church it is time for the fallacy of composition.
There have been black bishops for a long period of time. We not only have to look at the number of black bishops and priests, but also the percentage of such members and the timeline for evangelization of those areas. Also note that people are not “ordained” a Cardinal. The highest ordination in the Catholic Church is that of bishop. We have had black bishops for centuries.
dianaiad;5593349:
Not in the Americas, you haven’t. See, the problem is that if racism is a problem anywhere, then it is a problem everywhere.
In this case, try and equate American Catholics with the whole Catholic Church. Not only is the whole idea fallacious, but the cause and effect analysis is hilarious. Most of it is along the level of, “Most nurses are women, so the hospitals are sexiest.”

The quicker a Mormon moves to this position; I believe the more anti-catholic they are. If they were not anti-catholic, they would continue to try and defend Mormonism.
 
That doesnt show anything, just more mormon double talk.

If Smith was really a “prophet”, he would have dismissed them straight away. He didnt and another wonderful story was created.
Why would he have 'dismissed them straight away?"

What is it that you know about prophets that nobody else does, that you think he would have INSTANTLY known they were fraudulent? According to his relation of the process,translating the BoM and the PoGP took work, and prayer, and great spiritual effort. There is no reason to think that translating the Kinderhook plates, if they had been real, would have taken less work, or less prayer. There was nothing ‘instant’ in his story about translating those works. Therefore, if he were true to the story he told, "instant’ wasn’t in any way a part of the process.

However, his reaction to them seems to have been fairly close to ‘instant,’ in that whatever he thought about them, he did nothing about it. He pretty much ignored them. Dismissed them. When they left his possession, he never mentioned them again–they were irrelevant. In fact, as it turns out, he didn’t actually say much about them at any time. He got them, he looked at them, he then ignored them.

Sounds pretty definitive to me, come to think of it.
 
I get a much different picture of Father Tolton.

Upon arriving back to Quincy on July 17, 1886, Father Tolton was greeted at the train station like a conquering hero. Thousands were there to greet him led by Father McGirr. A brass band played church songs and Negro Spirituals. Thousands of blacks and whites lined the streets to catch a glimpse of the new priest wearing a black Prince Albert and a silk hat. People marched and cheered his flower draped four horse carriage. Children, priests and sisters left the school joining the procession heading towards the church.

Father Tolton arrived at the church where hundreds were waiting inside. People of all races were kneeling at the communion rail awaiting his sacerdotal blessings. The first blessing went to Father McGirr, his friend and benefactor. For this momentous occasion racial prejudices were momentarily replaced with religious fervor as all races kissed the new Father’s hand.

Returning from the annual retreat of Chicago priests at St. Viator’s College in Bourbonnais, Illinois on a hot July day Father Tolton was overwhelmed by the 105 degree. He collapsed somewhere near Calumet Avenue as he was walking from the train near Lake Michigan and 35th Street to his rectory at 36th and Dearborn. He was taken to the hospital, but four hours later on July 9, 1897 Father Tolton was dead from a sunstroke. The community was shocked as they had lost their beloved pastor seemingly in the prime of his life. Father Tolton rests at St. Mary’s Cemetery just outside of Quincy, Illinois.

True, there may have been some racism of the part of some individuals but it appears as a majority, people welcome him and he did not die alone as your story indicated. This clearly shows the Church was never racist.

stelizabethchicago.com/FatherTolton.html
 
I get a much different picture of Father Tolton.

Upon arriving back to Quincy on July 17, 1886, Father Tolton was greeted at the train station like a conquering hero. Thousands were there to greet him led by Father McGirr. A brass band played church songs and Negro Spirituals. Thousands of blacks and whites lined the streets to catch a glimpse of the new priest wearing a black Prince Albert and a silk hat. People marched and cheered his flower draped four horse carriage. Children, priests and sisters left the school joining the procession heading towards the church.

Father Tolton arrived at the church where hundreds were waiting inside. People of all races were kneeling at the communion rail awaiting his sacerdotal blessings. The first blessing went to Father McGirr, his friend and benefactor. For this momentous occasion racial prejudices were momentarily replaced with religious fervor as all races kissed the new Father’s hand.

Returning from the annual retreat of Chicago priests at St. Viator’s College in Bourbonnais, Illinois on a hot July day Father Tolton was overwhelmed by the 105 degree. He collapsed somewhere near Calumet Avenue as he was walking from the train near Lake Michigan and 35th Street to his rectory at 36th and Dearborn. He was taken to the hospital, but four hours later on July 9, 1897 Father Tolton was dead from a sunstroke. The community was shocked as they had lost their beloved pastor seemingly in the prime of his life. Father Tolton rests at St. Mary’s Cemetery just outside of Quincy, Illinois.

True, there may have been some racism of the part of some individuals but it appears as a majority, people welcome him and he did not die alone as your story indicated. This clearly shows the Church was never racist.

stelizabethchicago.com/FatherTolton.html
Yes, and again, the point is that there probably were racists in the Church at that time, people that tried to stop him from becoming a priest. However there was no worldwide impeding of blacks from the priesthood, and there was no need for a revelation from God to say that the Church needs to make sure all have access to the priesthood. The Catholic Church is not centered in the USA, nor does the US Church dictate Church practice. In addition to the Roman Catholic church, there is also the Coptic Catholic Church and the Ethiopian Catholic Church, which have existed since prior to the schism of 1054 (though they went into schism with Orthodoxy, but came back into union with Rome). Thus we see the difference between racists in a part of the Church, and a racial policy affecting ALL blacks in the LDS Church, whether in America or not, and which also affected their evangelizing Africa and Brazil, limiting the spread of the restored gospel to those who could not minister to themselves.
 
I also get a different story about Bishop Healy.
Yes, he was. There is a problem, though. Y’see, nobody KNEW he was black. He and his brothers “passed” as 'black Irish." True, their mother was a slave, but she was ‘mixed race’ herself. Turns out that she was only about a quarter black. Enough, in those days, to keep her a slave, but…
Healy enjoyed tremendous success in his diocese. Known for his effectiveness and oratorical skills, his popularity was in no way threatened by racial prejudice; except for a rumor that linked his parentage to the African-American cook at the rectory, he faced little of the racism that was so prevalent in post-Civil War America. Some critics attributed his acceptance to the fact that he never associated himself with the African-American community, although his race was a matter of public knowledge.

answers.com/topic/james-augustine-healy
 
Why would he have 'dismissed them straight away?"

What is it that you know about prophets that nobody else does, that you think he would have INSTANTLY known they were fraudulent? According to his relation of the process,translating the BoM and the PoGP took work, and prayer, and great spiritual effort. There is no reason to think that translating the Kinderhook plates, if they had been real, would have taken less work, or less prayer. There was nothing ‘instant’ in his story about translating those works. Therefore, if he were true to the story he told, "instant’ wasn’t in any way a part of the process.

However, his reaction to them seems to have been fairly close to ‘instant,’ in that whatever he thought about them, he did nothing about it. He pretty much ignored them. Dismissed them. When they left his possession, he never mentioned them again–they were irrelevant. In fact, as it turns out, he didn’t actually say much about them at any time. He got them, he looked at them, he then ignored them.

Sounds pretty definitive to me, come to think of it.
Critics often use Joseph’s secretary William Clayton as a source of support. You can read about it here. This is where the critics attempt to lure mormons away by implying that JS was a fraud.

Here is clayton’s account:

Conflicting accounts
Third, William Clayton’s account is problematic. We can either take it as representing personal and specific knowledge acquired from Joseph Smith, or not, or something between being entirely accurate or entirely false. The reason for this is that only two contemporary accounts exist (Clayton’s is one of them) which attempt to detail the alleged contents of the plates. These accounts are not in agreement on several points. In addition, Clayton’s account has significant points of error with regard to the discovery as related both in the series of affidavits, and by those perpetrating the hoax. Could Joseph Smith have been the source of these errors?

Clayton’s account details the following:

I have seen 6 brass plates which were found in Adams County by some persons who were digging in a mound. They found a skeleton about 6 feet from the surface of the earth which was 9 foot high. [At this point there is a tracing of a plate in the journal.] The plates were on the breast of the skeleton. This diagram shows the size of the plates being drawn on the edge of one of them. They are covered with ancient characters of language containing from 30 to 40 on each side of the plates. Prest J. has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharoah king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.[2]

en.fairmormon.org/Kinderhook_Plates
 
Whenever a Catholic brings up some ugly fact about Mormonism which the Mormon feels helpless to defend; it seems the Mormon wants to attack something about the Catholic Church. I’ve never understood why Mormons do this because it does nothing to change the ugly fact of Mormonism. It also seems to be used to just change subjects after being knocked back on their testimony in a current discussion.

.
Mormons do not actually do this. But on this thread the attacks against mormonism and mormons were too much. I tried to tell the catholics here to let sleeping dogs sleep peacefully but who listened? I said: all churches and religious faiths can be attacked and it is easy to do so. I compared it to eating grandma’s apple pie.

When you write about the ugly fact of mormonism an anticatholic can say the same thing about the catholic church. Why use such volitile words?
 
Whenever a Catholic brings up some ugly fact about Mormonism which the Mormon feels helpless to defend; it seems the Mormon wants to attack something about the Catholic Church. I’ve never understood why Mormons do this because it does nothing to change the ugly fact of Mormonism. It also seems to be used to just change subjects after being knocked back on their testimony in a current discussion.

When it is impossible to attack the Catholic Church it is time for the fallacy of composition.

In this case, try and equate American Catholics with the whole Catholic Church. Not only is the whole idea fallacious, but the cause and effect analysis is hilarious. Most of it is along the level of, “Most nurses are women, so the hospitals are sexiest.”

The quicker a Mormon moves to this position; I believe the more anti-catholic they are. If they were not anti-catholic, they would continue to try and defend Mormonism.
I knew you didn’t understand the fallacy of composition. You are accusing me of it…when in reality you are guilty. Fallacies of composition come in several flavors, y’know. The one you are committing states that even if one subset of a group has a certain property, that if other subsets of that group do NOT have it, then none of them have it…in this case, you are claiming that if the Catholic church in America was racist, that if there is any other geographical area on the planet where the church was NOT racist, then…nobody was, including the American Catholic church. It’s circular…and a fallacy of composition. A biggie.

Or worse, you are committing a 'true Scott" fallacy, which is also a fallacy of composition.

The fallacy goes: No true Scott drinks whiskey. Angus McBride, born in Aberdeen, drinks whiskey, therefore he is no true Scott." The problem is, the thing that makes a Scott is where he was born, not his preferences in liquid refreshment…therefore, since Angus drinks whiskey, then…true Scots drink whiskey.

The only way you can divorce the Catholic church as a whole from the actions of the church in America is to claim that that geographical branch of the church is not Catholic; as separate from you as the Baptists, or the Lutherans…or us. Is that really what you want to claim?

Own it, Stephen. Man up. Whatever the appropriate phrase is, deal with it.

I don’t have the right to begin a thread about CAtholic racism; if I was that stupid, you would have every right, then, to point out the priesthood ban. You will notice, however, that I’m not the one who began this. I have never done so. I am quite aware that Catholics have made great strides in this issue, and that is something that should be encouraged and praised. I have NEVER begun a conversation with an attack on any other faith, including yours, and if you don’t criticize Mormon racism, you would never see me say a word about the Catholic history of it.

What you are? You are the Reverend Dimmsdale putting Hester Prynne in the stocks for adultery.
 
I also get a different story about Bishop Healy.

Healy enjoyed tremendous success in his diocese. Known for his effectiveness and oratorical skills, his popularity was in no way threatened by racial prejudice; except for a rumor that linked his parentage to the African-American cook at the rectory, he faced little of the racism that was so prevalent in post-Civil War America. Some critics attributed his acceptance to the fact that he never associated himself with the African-American community, although his race was a matter of public knowledge.

answers.com/topic/james-augustine-healy
It was a matter of public knowledge in the way modern adoption records are. That is, it was in documents (like his birth certificate) but few had access to it, and he never spoke of it himself.

As the above paragraph stated, he refused to acknowledge his black heritage, but identified himself as Irish, from first to last.

…and that, frankly, is precisely as it should be.

Come to think of it, this man was almost exactly as “black” as my own children are. They are not ashamed of it, but they certainly are never asked about it. Nobody is going to come up to them and say, to my red-headed green eyed daughter, 'oh, are you black?"

Nobody is going to say to my sons, with the deep brown eyes, the permanent tans and the thick, black hair…'are you black?" because their heritage, like Father Healy’s, is almost entirely CELTIC. In their case, Scott–and they are as much Hispanic as they are black. Like Father Healy, they don’t LOOK particularly African American, unless they claim that heritage. Then you might be able to find something about the lips, or the nose, or the curl of my daughter’s hair…

Just like Father Healy.
 
He pretty much ignored them. Dismissed them. When they left his possession, he never mentioned them again–they were irrelevant. In fact, as it turns out, he didn’t actually say much about them at any time. He got them, he looked at them, he then ignored them.
"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." (“History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Vol. 5”, Smith Joseph and Roberts B. H., Deseret Book Company, 1909)

The sort of “prophecy” of a type that JS produced, such as with Zelph. Made up, short descriptions, off the top of his head. Never to be mentioned again or referenced.

The Kinderhook plates have been proven, without a doubt, to be forgeries. The chicken scratches on them have no meaning, whatsoever. So, what’s up with the above “translation”?

If Smith were acting as he claimed, as a prophet receiving revelation from God, what is revealed here? Nothing but a false prophet who just made up a translation. BUSTED!
Sounds pretty definitive to me, come to think of it.
Accounting of Zelph:

“[o]n the top of this mound there was the appearance of three altars, which had been built of stone, one above another, according to the ancient order; and the ground was strewn over with human bones.” This prompted Kimball and the others to dig into the mound after sending for a shovel and a hoe. “At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. We took the leg and thigh bones and carried them along with us to Clay county. All four appeared sound.”

“*t was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph. This caused us to rejoice much, to think that God was so mindful of us as to show these things to his servant. Brother Joseph had enquired of the Lord and it was made known in a vision.”

gull·ible
easily duped or cheated*
 
i’m convinced, the mormons on the thread are insane. doesn’t matter what logic you show them, they consistently miss the point and talk about nonsense. they are definitively brain washed. they stick their heads in the sand about the obvious doctrine of racism espoused by mormonism.

i’m sure if they were to hand out cool aid, they would drink it.
 
It was a matter of public knowledge in the way modern adoption records are. That is, it was in documents (like his birth certificate) but few had access to it, and he never spoke of it himself.

As the above paragraph stated, he refused to acknowledge his black heritage, but identified himself as Irish, from first to last.
.
I went to 15 different sites. There is nothing in any of them that backs up your assertions that he tried to pass himself off as white, or refused to acknowledge his heritage. Your statements are not fact. The sites I went to ranged from Catholic sites to black history sites and neutral.

He was a member of the Council’s commission for Negro and Indian missions. He was also a consultant to the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs. His Black ancestry was a problem when he traveled to the South, but he insisted on visiting there on church business. His racial background did not seem to affect the many priests who served under him. Bishop Healy died of a heart attack on August 5, 1900. More than 200 priests, seven bishops, many judges and state legislators attended his funeral.

*Why would his being black a problem if nobody knew he was black and passed himself off as Irish as you stated? *

At the time of his arrival, most Catholics in Maine were either Irish, French Canadian or Indian, and anti-Catholic sentiments were so strong that some churches were burned by Protestants. **Even some Irish Catholics were shocked to have a black Bishop. **

How could they be shocked to have a black bishop? Nobody knew he was a black man according to you.

Despite the Quaker emphasis on equality, the boys met with some discrimination throughout their school years, based not only on their race,

Why a problem with race. Nobody knows he’s black!!

Healy was deeply concerned that as a southerner of African descent he would be unacceptable to the predominantly Irish parishioners.

Why should he be concerned? According to you, nobody knows he is black

After encountering racial prejudice at their first school in Long Island, New York, Healy and his brothers completed their education in Massachusetts.

Here is the race problem again. But you say nobody knows he is black!!!

When I said in my earlier post that it was public knowledge that he was black you twisted that truth into meaning “yes public knowledge in that it is on his birth certificate” Your statement was incorrect and I believe the 15 histories that said that it was “public knowledge” that he was black and they didn’t mean public records.

Asked to attend an African-American Catholic Conference, he declined, writing, “We are of that Church where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, barbarian nor Scythian, slave nor freeman, but Christ is all and in all.”
 
ricko,

he’s trying to avoid the subject and make a false comparison. these mormons have been doing this at every challenge. they have no answer so they point our something irrelavent about the catholic faith without ever dealing with the issue. clearly, his logic about the fact this bishop was mixed race misses the piont about mormonism being inherently racist.

that’s why i think they are insane. they do not use reason. it’s like trying to argue with a madman.
 
"I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth." (“History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Vol. 5”, Smith Joseph and Roberts B. H., Deseret Book Company, 1909)

The sort of “prophecy” of a type that JS produced, such as with Zelph. Made up, short descriptions, off the top of his head. Never to be mentioned again or referenced.

The Kinderhook plates have been proven, without a doubt, to be forgeries. The chicken scratches on them have no meaning, whatsoever. So, what’s up with the above “translation”?

If Smith were acting as he claimed, as a prophet receiving revelation from God, what is revealed here? Nothing but a false prophet who just made up a translation. BUSTED!

Accounting of Zelph:

“[o]n the top of this mound there was the appearance of three altars, which had been built of stone, one above another, according to the ancient order; and the ground was strewn over with human bones.” This prompted Kimball and the others to dig into the mound after sending for a shovel and a hoe. “At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. We took the leg and thigh bones and carried them along with us to Clay county. All four appeared sound.”

“*t was made known to Joseph that he had been an officer who fell in battle, in the last destruction among the Lamanites, and his name was Zelph. This caused us to rejoice much, to think that God was so mindful of us as to show these things to his servant. Brother Joseph had enquired of the Lord and it was made known in a vision.”

gull·ible*
easily duped or cheated

Zelph:

Conclusion
LDS scholars have differed about the reliability of the accounts, and their relevance for Book of Mormon geography.[6] As Kenneth Godfrey observed:

If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion’s Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion’s Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation.
Furthermore, readers would be told that most sources agree that Zelph was a white Lamanite who fought under a leader named Onandagus (variously spelled). Beyond that, what Joseph said to his men is not entirely clear, judging by the variations in the available sources. The date of the man Zelph, too, remains unclear. Expressions such as “great struggles among the Lamanites,” if accurately reported, could refer to a period long after the close of the Book of Mormon narrative, as well as to the fourth century AD. None of the sources before the Willard Richards composition, however, actually say that Zelph died in battle with the Nephites, only that he died “in battle” when the otherwise unidentified people of Onandagus were engaged in great wars “among the Lamanites.”
Zelph was identified as a “Lamanite,” a label agreed on by all the accounts. This term might refer to the ethnic and cultural category spoken of in the Book of Mormon as actors in the destruction of the Nephites, or it might refer more generally to a descendant of the earlier Lamanites and could have been considered in 1834 as the equivalent of “Indian” (see, for example, D&C 3:18, 20; 10:48; 28:8; 32:2). Nothing in the accounts can settle the question of Zelph’s specific ethnic identity.[7]
Thus, it is unclear exactly what Joseph said. Many of the accounts date from many years after the event, and may have been shaded by later ideas in the writers. Joseph never had a chance to correct that which was published about the event, since he was killed before it was made public. The “Lamanites” may refer to native Amerindians generally, or Book of Mormon peoples specifically. If the latter are referred to, the events may well apply to post-Book of Mormon events, in which case it can tell us little about the geographic scope of the Book of Mormon text.

As always, the Book of Mormon text itself must remain our primary guide for what it says. If we wish to test Joseph’s claim that it was an ancient record, then others’ opinions about its contents—even Joseph Smith’s—are of limited value.

The kinderhook plates are interesting. But why would JS fall for his own con. It was exactly as his con, if he were a conartist, he would have seen through it immediately. And he did. He basically had very little to do with the kinderhook plates. He was much to busy to have cared.
 
More on the Zelph story:

The Zelph Story and the History of Zion’s camp
In 1842 Willard Richards, then church historian, was assigned the task of compiling a large number of documents and producing a history of the church from them. He worked on this material between 21 December 1842 and 27 March 1843. Richards, who had not joined the church until 1836, relied on the writings or recollections of Heber C. Kimball, Wilford Woodruff, and perhaps others for his information regarding the discovery of Zelph. Blending the sources available to him, and perhaps using oral accounts from some of the members of Zion’s Camp, but writing as if he were Joseph Smith, historian Richards drafted the story of Zelph as it appears in the “Manuscript History of the Church, Book A-1.” With respect to points relative to Book of Mormon geography, Richards wrote that “Zelph was a white Lamanite, a man of God who was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus who was known from the [hill Cumorah is crossed out in the manuscript] eastern Sea, to the Rocky Mountains. He was killed in battle, by the arrow found among his ribs, during a [last crossed out] great struggle with the Lamanites” [and Nephites crossed out].7

Following the death of Joseph Smith, the Times and Seasons published serially the “History of Joseph Smith.” When the story of finding Zelph appeared in the 1 January 1846 issue, most of the words crossed out in the Richards manuscript were, for some unknown reason, included, along with the point that the prophet’s name was Omandagus. The reference to the hill Cumorah from the unemended Wilford Woodruff journal was still included in the narrative, as was the phrase "during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites."8

The 1904 first edition of the seven-volume History of the Church, edited by B. H. Roberts, repeats the manuscript version of Richards’s account. However, in 1948, after Joseph Fielding Smith had become church historian, explicit references to the hill Cumorah and the Nephites were reintroduced. That phrasing has continued to the present in all reprintings.9

If the history of the church were to be revised today using modern historical standards, readers would be informed that Joseph Smith wrote nothing about the discovery of Zelph, and that the account of uncovering the skeleton in Pike County is based on the diaries of seven members of Zion’s Camp, some of which were written long after the event took place. We would be assured that the members of Zion’s Camp dug up a skeleton near the Illinois River in early June 1834. Equally sure is that Joseph Smith made statements about the deceased person and his historical setting. We would learn that it is unclear which statements attributed to him derived from his vision, as opposed to being implied or surmised either by him or by others. Nothing in the diaries suggests that the mound itself was discovered by revelation.

Furthermore, readers would be told that most sources agree that Zelph was a white Lamanite who fought under a leader named Onandagus (variously spelled). Beyond that, what Joseph said to his men is not entirely clear, judging by the variations in the available sources. The date of the man Zelph, too, remains unclear. Expressions such as “great struggles among the Lamanites,” if accurately reported, could refer to a period long after the close of the Book of Mormon narrative, as well as to the fourth century AD. None of the sources before the Willard Richards composition, however, actually say that Zelph died in battle with the Nephites, only that he died “in battle” when the otherwise unidentified people of Onandagus were engaged in great wars “among the Lamanites.”

Zelph was identified as a “Lamanite,” a label agreed on by all the accounts. This term might refer to the ethnic and cultural category spoken of in the Book of Mormon as actors in the destruction of the Nephites, or it might refer more generally to a descendant of the earlier Lamanites and could have been considered in 1834 as the equivalent of “Indian” (see, for example, D&C 3:18, 20; 10:48; 28:8; 32:2). Nothing in the accounts can settle the question of Zelph’s specific ethnic identity.

mi.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=8&num=2&id=202

Such is a mormon perspective.
 
doesn’t the church of LDS think Catholics are evil (or something to that effect). Man bud you must be caught in a pretty peculiar dilemma?
 
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