Why are people so tolerant of gays now?

[EasterJoy]

Well, yes, but we cannot use bad means to achieve a moral end. It is not OK to discourage homosexual behavior or to falsely pretend homosexuality and heterosexuality are the same thing by treating people with same-sex attraction as if they did not have the same human dignity as anyone else. In that sense, of course Catholics have to be tolerant of homosexuals, just as we are tolerant of everyone else, because everyone faces temptations. It is not immoral to mind our own business. We are morally bound, however, to oppose laws that encourage immoral behavior, to the extent that we are able.

That does not read correctly.

Homosexual behaviors are wrong. The inclination to commit them occurs in nature to varying degrees, and some people have a deep-seated tendency in that direction. The Church does not deny this and does not teach that the tendencies are always willful. The Church teaches that although these tendencies are disordered, their presence does not reduce the dignity of a human being at all, regardless of the extent of the tendencies (although the tendencies may preclude a person from taking on certain roles incompatible with these tendencies). Pretending that homosexuality and heterosexuality are the same thing is wrong. Encouraging same-sex couples to pretend marriage is wrong. Marriage has a purpose that serves the good of society, and while the marriage of two Christians is a sacrament, that does not mean that a Christian has no stake in what civil laws govern natural marriages in the general population.

On that account, Catholics are duty-bound to support laws which encourage behavior that is according to the moral order and discourages disordered behavior, while even at the same time seeing to it that civil society extends the same human treatment as to anyone else towards those who mistakenly believe that immoral behavior is right and good or that morality itself is a moot concept. That can be something of a balancing act in a pluralistic society like ours, but it does not imply that Catholics can hide in a political cave and pretend that personal morality has nothing to do with the public good or that a person with political power has no moral duty to use it towards good ends. We do, even if other people don’t like it, even if other people believe we are bad and un-Christian for believing that we do. We won’t be held to other people’s understanding of the laws of God. We will be held to what God knows that we know, and they will be held by God, not by us, to what God knows that they know.

 

[Kamaduck]

Population wise, the ten in time of Sodom probably should be ten million today. Do we have that many faithful Catholics? According to statistics, 60% Catholics approve “gay marriage”, that percentage is above than the non-Catholics who support “gay marriage”.

As a Catholic and want to redefine what God defined is far away from faithful. Overwriting God’s law is actually disobedient and sinful.

Are we talking in the entire world, or just in America?

If we need ten million to equal ten in just America, then you’re saying that the entirety of Sodom was only 300 people. That seems pretty small to me.

To Easterjoy- thank you for your posts. I’ll think about what you said. I suppose that if other civilizations have been described as worse than Sodom, then modern America probably qualifies as well.

 

[PTL]

Are we talking in the entire world, or just in America?

If we need ten million to equal ten in just America, then you’re saying that the entirety of Sodom was only 300 people. That seems pretty small to me.

Yes, we are talking about America where I live and care the most. I don’t know if Sodom has more than 300 people or not. The number ten million was used to emphasize we need many many more than ten righteous people to ease God’s anger.

The bottom line is we must be able to distinguish the difference between sin and sinner. Like the old saying, hate sin but not hate the sinner. Treat gay people as our brothers and sisters does not mean to call sin virtue, call black white. The Church’s teaching is that homosexuality is a disorder. To have the same sex attraction is not a sin, to put into action is a sin. A sin is a sin. We cannot pretend it is not. People with same sex attraction is called to live a chaste life. That is why gay “marriage” is wrong in Church’s eyes.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2347
(all) 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

catholiccrossreference.com/catechism/#!/search/2357-2359

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, we are talking about America where I live and care the most. I don’t know if Sodom has more than 300 people or not. The number ten million was used to emphasize we need many many more than ten righteous people to ease God’s anger.

Sodom could be seen from three days’ journey away, so I expect it was quite large.

The number of righteous doesn’t really matter, since only one righteous person was found in Sodom, anyway (and he wasn’t a very nice person, either) - Lot.

 

[EasterJoy]

According to the Lord, the sins of Sodom, in spite of their infamy, were not the worst possible:

"Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words - go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. Matt. 10:14-15

and

“And as for you, Capernaum: ‘Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.’ For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But** I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you**.” Matt. 11:23-24

There is not a sin, including all of the sexual sins, not even murder or rape, that cannot be forgiven, save a final refusal to repent, a sin which is know to God alone, since even of those who commit suicide, the Church teaches: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance.” (CCC 2283)

“Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Matt. 12:31-32

It is the will of God that we hope for the salutary repentance of all sinners, not just ourselves, for the Lord thirsts for every soul. All of the baptized are to share that thirst, and therefore we cannot account any soul not worth saving, nor treat any person in a way that will stand in the way of their turning with their whole hearts towards God. It has to be obvious that hardening our hearts towards people with SSA falls into that category.

 

[PTL]

All sins need to be repented before being forgiven. That is exactly the reason we should not pretend homosexual behavior or action (not tendency) is not a sin. Only realizing that putting same sex attraction into sex action is a sin, then, only then, could a person think about repentance. Encouraging the sinful behavior of gay is like encouraging a person with drug addiction. It does the person disservice.

 

[EasterJoy]

All sins need to be repented before being forgiven. That is exactly the reason we should not pretend homosexual behavior or action (not tendency) is not a sin. Only realizing that putting same sex attraction into sex action is a sin, then, only then, could a person think about repentance. Encouraging the sinful behavior of gay is like encouraging a person with drug addiction. It does the person disservice.

Yes. There are good and bad ways to discourage the behavior, it is wrong to speak as if acts are being committed when one does not actually know that anyone has done anything, but it does a disservice to deny the truth when one is confronted with someone teaching that some sin is not a sin.

 

[Skadi]

Yes, you are right, our faith does not require us to judge anyone outside our ranks. In our capacity as participants in civil life, however, we are bound to make laws which reflect morality which is binding not just on us, but on the whole human race. That does not mean that we have to make everything that is wrong into a civil crime. It does mean that we cannot cooperate with efforts to encourage immorality, which we believe damages both the person and the society they live in. It is not moral for us to stand by and make laws that actively encourage others to ruin themselves, or that imply a lie.

I wish more people were of your oppinion, or atleast were more vocal.

 

[epan]

No one ever said that homosexuals have to be persecuted. We should welcome them with open arms, while keeping to the laws of Christ.

God bless you.

… and Jesus said nothing, as far as we know, about homosexuality.

 

[jmcrae]

… and Jesus said nothing, as far as we know, about homosexuality.

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He has said quite a bit on the subject, actually.

 

[agapewolf]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He has said quite a bit on the subject, actually.

And the new testament…you know, when he talked about marriage

 

[epan]

Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He has said quite a bit on the subject, actually.

OK, so you embrace the OT. Tell me, is a raped girl required to marry her rapist if the rapist pays 50 shekels?

I thought so. I think we can agree that the OT is ludicrous in this context. If you are a cafeteria catholic then you can pick and choose whom you are morally superior to. If not, then there is a problem with the OT, since you can’t mix clothing fibers, you must shun females who are menstruating, and so on…

Are you saying that you live by the OT, or are you just picking and choosing your preferred morality based on personal preference?

 

[EasterJoy]

… and Jesus said nothing, as far as we know, about homosexuality.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:17-19

And he said to them, "You justify yourselves in the sight of others, but God knows your hearts; for what is of human esteem is an abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets lasted until John; but from then on the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone who enters does so with violence. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the smallest part of a letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:15-17

“Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers. This is the letter delivered by them: "The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth: 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’” Acts 15:-2229

If the Church has not used her authority to bind and loose to abrogate some part of the Law, that authority given by the Lord and by which the laws of kashrut and circumcision were abrogated, for example, it is not abrogated. The law against sex outside of marriage and the law forbidding marriage between members of the same sex are in effect–the Council of Jerusalem did not abrogate any of the rules for marriage. The Church does not condemn anyone for being tempted to violate the rules of marriage, but nevertheless teaches that actually violating the rules of marriage is strictly forbidden. If anything, the Lord said that the law of Moses was too lax with regards to the rules for marriage, rather than too strict. Find where the Lord said anything different.

PS The Lord also did not grant biological proclivity as an excuse to sin, but required mastery over all of the tendencies of the body that are contrary to moral law:
“If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.” Matt. 5:29-30

 

[jmcrae]

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt. 5:17-19

And he said to them, "You justify yourselves in the sight of others, but God knows your hearts; for what is of human esteem is an abomination in the sight of God. The law and the prophets lasted until John; but from then on the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone who enters does so with violence. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the smallest part of a letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:15-17

“Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers. This is the letter delivered by them: "The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth: 'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’” Acts 15:-2229

If the Church has not used her authority to bind and loose to abrogate some part of the Law, that authority given by the Lord and by which the laws of kashrut and circumcision were abrogated, for example, it is not abrogated. The law against sex outside of marriage and the law forbidding marriage between members of the same sex are in effect–the Council of Jerusalem did not abrogate any of the rules for marriage. The Church does not condemn anyone for being tempted to violate the rules of marriage, but nevertheless teaches that actually violating the rules of marriage is strictly forbidden. If anything, the Lord said that the law of Moses was too lax with regards to the rules for marriage, rather than too strict. Find where the Lord said anything different.

PS The Lord also did not grant biological proclivity as an excuse to sin, but required mastery over all of the tendencies of the body that are contrary to moral law:
“If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.” Matt. 5:29-30

Brilliant!

 

[Mr_Kelvin]

Most of us are overly tolerant of gays because deep now we know, most gay people are very sensitive and unstable people. It is very easy to hurt their feelings and make them enemies. Worse, the gay people took over the US Government and military, and it is only a matter of time before we begin experiencing direct religious persecution for calling homosexuality what it is, a grave mortal sin. NOBODY is inherently gay by nature. They have a void in their life, and the devil grabs a hold of that and turns them into peverts. I am having to deal with a lot of gay people on a daily basis, and trying to walk a fine line between being nice or being too nice. I have to be very careful what I say or how they take simple mistakes one makes. You can accidentally involve someone else in a car club activity, and if the gay person thinks you failed to inform them properly, they will immediate start thinking the worse of you and that you excluded them because they are gay. We need some heroic priests to come out and lay down the guidelines with scenarios about how to treat gays without compromising our morals or being lured into the back room. It is pathetic that now with the sexual indoctrination of our country, we got to worry about homos now too. Everyone has become animalistic, and there is a woman in Quebec right now lobbying for the right for women to parade naked in front of men on the beach since if men don’t have to wear shirts, why should they?. She is suing the park and going to Canada Human Rights Commission, to lead a revolutionary movement of nudity …I digress. Very disturbing times.

 

[jmcrae]

Most of us are overly tolerant of gays because deep now we know, most gay people are very sensitive and unstable people. It is very easy to hurt their feelings and make them enemies. Worse, the gay people took over the US Government and military, and it is only a matter of time before we begin experiencing direct religious persecution for calling homosexuality what it is, a grave mortal sin. NOBODY is inherently gay by nature. They have a void in their life, and the devil grabs a hold of that and turns them into peverts. I am having to deal with a lot of gay people on a daily basis, and trying to walk a fine line between being nice or being too nice. I have to be very careful what I say or how they take simple mistakes one makes. You can accidentally involve someone else in a car club activity, and if the gay person thinks you failed to inform them properly, they will immediate start thinking the worse of you and that you excluded them because they are gay. We need some heroic priests to come out and lay down the guidelines with scenarios about how to treat gays without compromising our morals or being lured into the back room. It is pathetic that now with the sexual indoctrination of our country, we got to worry about homos now too. Everyone has become animalistic, and there is a woman in Quebec right now lobbying for the right for women to parade naked in front of men on the beach since if men don’t have to wear shirts, why should they?. She is suing the park and going to Canada Human Rights Commission, to lead a revolutionary movement of nudity …I digress. Very disturbing times.

Maybe we should get men to wear shirts on the beach.

Public modesty is geared to what is offensive to men, but no one thinks of what is offensive to women; as a woman, I would appreciate it if men would keep their shirts on, actually.

 

[Mr_Kelvin]

I wear shirt at the beach when I swim, and there would be less skin cancer if people actually covered up.

 

[Book_Worm]

NOBODY is inherently gay by nature.

No reputable scientist believes this. Do a little research into the science of epigenetics.

We don’t need heroic priests to show us how to behave toward homosexuals; if our Pope does not feel it is his place to judge them, why should we feel we have the right to do so?

 

[EasterJoy]

Most of us are overly tolerant of gays because deep now we know, most gay people are very sensitive and unstable people. It is very easy to hurt their feelings and make them enemies. Worse, the gay people took over the US Government and military, and it is only a matter of time before we begin experiencing direct religious persecution for calling homosexuality what it is, a grave mortal sin. NOBODY is inherently gay by nature. They have a void in their life, and the devil grabs a hold of that and turns them into peverts. I am having to deal with a lot of gay people on a daily basis, and trying to walk a fine line between being nice or being too nice. I have to be very careful what I say or how they take simple mistakes one makes. You can accidentally involve someone else in a car club activity, and if the gay person thinks you failed to inform them properly, they will immediate start thinking the worse of you and that you excluded them because they are gay. We need some heroic priests to come out and lay down the guidelines with scenarios about how to treat gays without compromising our morals or being lured into the back room. It is pathetic that now with the sexual indoctrination of our country, we got to worry about homos now too. Everyone has become animalistic, and there is a woman in Quebec right now lobbying for the right for women to parade naked in front of men on the beach since if men don’t have to wear shirts, why should they?. She is suing the park and going to Canada Human Rights Commission, to lead a revolutionary movement of nudity …I digress. Very disturbing times.

The Church teaches this in the Catechism (boldface mine):

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[agapewolf]

No reputable scientist believes this. Do a little research into the science of epigenetics.

Actually, its church teaching. God doesn’t put disorders in our nature.