Why are people so tolerant of gays now?

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EasterJoy said:
It is as clever a treatise on the contemporary tricks of the Evil One as one could ask for, and a good antidote to the lie that the Scriptures aren’t “relevant” or “progressive” enough and all of that rot. Lewis didn’t try to be a Doctor of the Church. He was more like the kid who says that the emperor has no clothes, and there is quite a thirst in Christendom for that these days, isn’t there? Without that, there is no end to the twisting of the red letters that would be going on. Besides, it does not hurt for the world to be reminded that demons actually do exist, that our “enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” (1 Pet. 5:8) Not all who read the Scriptures can be made to believe that any more.

If you haven’t read it, I’d highly recommend it. It has a lot of insight for such a brief book!
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We read portions of it at my catholic HS but I’m no longer Christian so I don’t subscribe to that particular view of demons any more. They certainly are devious little suckers though, and very dangerous.
 
EasterJoy said:
Plus, there is hardly such a thing as a “primitive culture”. There are cultures without electricity, but that doesn’t imply the people don’t have fully human morals based on systems of thought that are as advanced as anyone else’s. So there isn’t some experiment being run out there with a control group of humans who are normal. All societies have both their fully human people and their fallen-human issues, regardless of what technology they have. It could easily be argued that our society, with its breakdown of reliable or predictable social support structures or social mores, is about as “primitive” as human society gets! If deprived isn’t primitive, after all, what is?

What is new, too, is the ability of a relatively low number of individuals in our society to communicate and form an identity together over and above the prevailing culture. That didn’t used to happen very much…although I’m sure it happened, just not as something that those involved could afford to advertise. People in our culture can also exhibit behaviors without the larger group knowing about it–also hard to do in a more close-knit and less individualistic group.

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I think what he meant by primitive culture is cultures fully secluded from current civilization who live exactly as humans used to live probably when humanity first appeared. In my country there are several cultures like this, (about four different groups of natives) they live in the middle of the jungle, they literally live on top of trees like animals, have very little contact with current civilization (besides from scientist that go to remote areas to study them) and they want to remain secluded. There are many cultures like this in latinoamerica and homosexuality is non existant in these cultures. They tend to be polygamist or practice polyandry but there is no such thing as homosexuality.
 
Skadi said:
We read portions of it at my catholic HS but I’m no longer Christian so I don’t subscribe to that particular view of demons any more. They certainly are devious little suckers though, and very dangerous.
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To tell you the truth, I think the *Screwtape Letters *reveals more about the way people deceive themselves morally than the way the devil does it. Screwtape says as much himself! I think that is what makes it such a popular book. It very cleverly uncovers the ways in which we con ourselves into believing we’re better than we are.
 
i guess our society are getting crazier day by day… one of my opinions is: this world is on a bias
 
MarcoPolo said:
May I ask why you believe it is wrong to harm others?
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I believe in not initiating harm.

The 9 Noble Virtues are
Courage
Truth
Honour
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Industriousness
Perseverance

Initiating harm is contrary to these. In addition a society in shich people harm eachother at will cannot survive. That said, I do believe reciprocating harm is acceptable.
 
EasterJoy said:
To tell you the truth, I think the *Screwtape Letters *reveals more about the way people deceive themselves morally than the way the devil does it. Screwtape says as much himself! I think that is what makes it such a popular book. It very cleverly uncovers the ways in which we con ourselves into believing we’re better than we are.
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Yes, the human ego is capeable of some incredible mental gymnastics that’s for sure.
 
Skadi said:
I believe in not initiating harm.

The 9 Noble Virtues are
Courage
Truth
Honour
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Industriousness
Perseverance

Initiating harm is contrary to these. In addition a society in shich people harm eachother at will cannot survive.
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Interesting - you mention survival as a basis for why these virtues should be exercised. What is the value of human survival?
 
Skadi said:
I believe in not initiating harm.

The 9 Noble Virtues are
Courage
Truth
Honour
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Industriousness
Perseverance

Initiating harm is contrary to these. In addition a society in shich people harm eachother at will cannot survive. That said, I do believe reciprocating harm is acceptable.
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Would it be correct to say that your approach is utilitarian in nature?
 
marymary1975 said:
I think what he meant by primitive culture is cultures fully secluded from current civilization who live exactly as humans used to live probably when humanity first appeared. In my country there are several cultures like this, (about four different groups of natives) they live in the middle of the jungle, they literally live on top of trees like animals, have very little contact with current civilization (besides from scientist that go to remote areas to study them) and they want to remain secluded. There are many cultures like this in latinoamerica and homosexuality is non existant in these cultures. They tend to be polygamist or practice polyandry but there is no such thing as homosexuality.
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And there are several anthropological studies that have observed homosexual behavior in primitive societies.
 
TK421 said:
Which also means that the support of it isn’t as strong as people might think. The majority of the population in a new pagan society might be complacent and approve of it, but not with strong conviction. The hardcore advocates are a minority and then a much larger group is being led along with them.

It’s also about making oneself feel justified. A person that holds little or no standards in their own heterosexual lifestyle is going to have a hard time looking down on same sex lifestyles without feeling awkward about it. They either need to reassess their own lifestyle and determine that they’re in the wrong, or they just give up and open the doors completely.

Next up on the plate: incestual sex. Justification? If you use contraceptives to ensure you don’t produce offspring, then it’s ethically okay. Countdown: 20-30 years.
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Just wanted to say Hi. I’m a former (devout) evangelical. Took four years of hard study and prayer but the Lord finally broke through this thick skull…🙂
 
jmcrae said:
Even today, in primitive cultures, homosexuality does not exist - why not? Because it offers nothing useful to the survival of the community.
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I don’t think so…

The Etoro Tribe of Papua New Guinea, homosexual acts are a rite of passage into manhood and becoming a warrior.

130 Tribes of of Native Americans held cross dressing homosexual, men and women “two-spirits” in very high respect, and to have sexual relations with one was believed to bring good luck and health.

In Ancient Greece the view was true love can only be found between two men. Plato wrote that gay lovers were more blessed than ordinary mortals.
 
marymary1975 said:
I think what he meant by primitive culture is cultures fully secluded from current civilization who live exactly as humans used to live probably when humanity first appeared. In my country there are several cultures like this, (about four different groups of natives) they live in the middle of the jungle, they literally live on top of trees like animals, have very little contact with current civilization (besides from scientist that go to remote areas to study them) and they want to remain secluded. There are many cultures like this in latinoamerica and homosexuality is non existant in these cultures. They tend to be polygamist or practice polyandry but there is no such thing as homosexuality.
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Nobody on this earth has been put in a time capsule. Each society, however secluded, has its own innovators. Every society has matured over time in its own way. There is a range of social mores in non-technological societies, just as there is in technological societies. There is a range in what is taboo and not taboo. There is a range in how tightly previously-accepted behaviors are held on to. Sometimes, it is the uprooted who hold the most tightly to what is left of their traditions, while those whose roots are undisturbed feel more free to change from one generation to the next!

There is no reason to look to cultures who have only had their own example to teach them as if they were some sort of gold standard of human behavior, as if they were untainted innocents. Yes, the concept of a stranger is going to be quite different to someone who has little experience with ever meeting any than for someone who moves among total strangers on a daily basis. Yes, violence is different when you’ve learned it on TV than only knowing it firsthand among people you know. Otherwise, though, people who grow up in small communities aren’t different than people who grow up in bigger ones. They accept what they know, what the people with accepted authority have accepted and taught. Well, their people with accepted authority are just as prone to the foibles of humanity as anyone else’s. Therefore, some “primitive” cultures will seem extremely innocent to us, while others will seem barbaric, depending on how their taboos match up to ours. This shouldn’t be any surprise!

Also, keep in mind that even in our own societies, there have always been ways in which the “official” version of what is and is not tolerated has departed from what actually goes on. There are always things we say don’t happen that do happen in secret, and always things we say we do but that we do not do so unfailingly as we like to think. We are not always correct in estimating the prevalence of the things that shock us–we tend to guess quite high or quite low, depending on our temperament. There are things that we hold are true about ourselves that used to be true but are no longer true. There are things we believe about those we idolize or look down on that are molded away from the strict truth in order to fill out a picture we want to see. “Primitive” societies self-reporting to anthropologists are not going to be any different than the rest of us in that regard. They, like the rest of us, will have a self-image that they will project. I do not mean to imply that there is deceit, only that none of us match up as well as we think to what a mirror says!
 
Avdima said:
I don’t think so…

The Etoro Tribe of Papua New Guinea, homosexual acts are a rite of passage into manhood and becoming a warrior.

130 Tribes of of Native Americans held cross dressing homosexual, men and women “two-spirits” in very high respect, and to have sexual relations with one was believed to bring good luck and health.

In Ancient Greece the view was true love can only be found between two men. Plato wrote that gay lovers were more blessed than ordinary mortals.
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I think two-spirit people are different, though. I thought they were more like genderqueer people than simply homosexuals, but I could be wrong about that. I know I’ve seen them listed as one of the groups under the umbrella term “trans*”.

Anyways, I have to agree that homosexuality is not limited to modern America.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Interesting - you mention survival as a basis for why these virtues should be exercised. What is the value of human survival?
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Ideally, honor, Family, and keeping ones oaths should take priority over ones own life. In fact my religion dose have a little fatalistic flavor to it, I HOPE to die fighting, that is the one undesputed way a person reaches Valhalla. However in the modern world that isn’t likely.

That said, it is acceptable morally in my religion to kill a man who attacks you, is attempting to steal from you, or has insulted you in one of a few very specific ways. In addition back in the day civil trial by combat and duels were also very common in Northern Europe. As we’re blood feuds.

The line between Murder and justified killing is somewhat blurry.
 
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