S
Skadi
Guest
You could say that. I’m a soft polythiest, I beleave there are many paths to the ultimate “is all/god”.
- Status
E
Eleanor61
Guest
I believe some anthropological studies such as Margaret Meade’s were found to be seriously inaccurate. ( strange white woman comes and asks you intensely personal questions, so you don’t necessarily tell the truth). I am not contradicting, it is possible, only that such studies, while technically improved since her day, can be very skewed.
A group of us moms with young adult children were discussing this recently. It seems that while our kids are committed to defending life, they are wishy-washy about gay marriage. Abortion has a definite victim, gay marriage, at least to them, does not. Being intolerant of homosexuality seems mean, as indeed, it can be if we are talking about rejecting individuals rather than rejecting sinful behavior. My older (over 25) children get the distinction, but the younger ones are definitely affected by growing up in such a gay friendly, indeed saturated, culture.
My youngest(14) has persuaded us all to watch Bear Grylls’ Get Out Alive. We normally watch very little broadcast television, but we like Ninja Warrior and it comes on afterwards. There is an obviously gay couple contesting. They are fit and skilled, but they are also the most helpful and self sacrificing people on the show. This may be media manipulation, and it may be just that these particular people are extremely compassionate, but it will leave a positive impression on many viewers. I am inclined to think this is not accidental, but I have been known to be overly cynical about everything.
A group of us moms with young adult children were discussing this recently. It seems that while our kids are committed to defending life, they are wishy-washy about gay marriage. Abortion has a definite victim, gay marriage, at least to them, does not. Being intolerant of homosexuality seems mean, as indeed, it can be if we are talking about rejecting individuals rather than rejecting sinful behavior. My older (over 25) children get the distinction, but the younger ones are definitely affected by growing up in such a gay friendly, indeed saturated, culture.
My youngest(14) has persuaded us all to watch Bear Grylls’ Get Out Alive. We normally watch very little broadcast television, but we like Ninja Warrior and it comes on afterwards. There is an obviously gay couple contesting. They are fit and skilled, but they are also the most helpful and self sacrificing people on the show. This may be media manipulation, and it may be just that these particular people are extremely compassionate, but it will leave a positive impression on many viewers. I am inclined to think this is not accidental, but I have been known to be overly cynical about everything.
B
Book_Worm
Guest
Or it could be that experiencing hatred and bigotry their entire lives has caused them to become more empathetic and caring.I believe some anthropological studies such as Margaret Meade’s were found to be seriously inaccurate. ( strange white woman comes and asks you intensely personal questions, so you don’t necessarily tell the truth). I am not contradicting, it is possible, only that such studies, while technically improved since her day, can be very skewed.
A group of us moms with young adult children were discussing this recently. It seems that while our kids are committed to defending life, they are wishy-washy about gay marriage. Abortion has a definite victim, gay marriage, at least to them, does not. Being intolerant of homosexuality seems mean, as indeed, it can be if we are talking about rejecting individuals rather than rejecting sinful behavior. My older (over 25) children get the distinction, but the younger ones are definitely affected by growing up in such a gay friendly, indeed saturated, culture.
My youngest(14) has persuaded us all to watch Bear Grylls’ Get Out Alive. We normally watch very little broadcast television, but we like Ninja Warrior and it comes on afterwards. There is an obviously gay couple contesting. They are fit and skilled, but they are also the most helpful and self sacrificing people on the show. This may be media manipulation, and it may be just that these particular people are extremely compassionate, but it will leave a positive impression on many viewers. I am inclined to think this is not accidental, but I have been known to be overly cynical about everything.
E
Eleanor61
Guest
I was not implying otherwise, I posited it as a possibility, I just tend to be suspicious of EVERYTHING. Given their youth, they have not experienced the same degree of negative treatment as, say, my 75 year old cousin (who is also bi- racial). If hatred and bigotry make people kinder and more empathtic, wouldn’t that be a circular argument?
B
Book_Worm
Guest
I don’t believe that it’s any less hurtful to experience ten years of negative treatment than it is to experience sixty-five years of it, at least not when you’re young. I think the vicious hatred I still hear teen-aged boys voice toward homosexuals would be pretty devastating and not something that one would not get past very quickly.
I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment about a circular argument. I know that often people who are familiar with suffering are often kinder and more sympathetic.
S
Skadi
Guest
I don’t think you are being overly cynical, as scripted as “reality tv” is today. Just about the only time Gays are portrayed negetively is when they are gossiping and even then they are never the worst.I believe some anthropological studies such as Margaret Meade’s were found to be seriously inaccurate. ( strange white woman comes and asks you intensely personal questions, so you don’t necessarily tell the truth). I am not contradicting, it is possible, only that such studies, while technically improved since her day, can be very skewed.
A group of us moms with young adult children were discussing this recently. It seems that while our kids are committed to defending life, they are wishy-washy about gay marriage. Abortion has a definite victim, gay marriage, at least to them, does not. Being intolerant of homosexuality seems mean, as indeed, it can be if we are talking about rejecting individuals rather than rejecting sinful behavior. My older (over 25) children get the distinction, but the younger ones are definitely affected by growing up in such a gay friendly, indeed saturated, culture.
My youngest(14) has persuaded us all to watch Bear Grylls’ Get Out Alive. We normally watch very little broadcast television, but we like Ninja Warrior and it comes on afterwards. There is an obviously gay couple contesting. They are fit and skilled, but they are also the most helpful and self sacrificing people on the show. This may be media manipulation, and it may be just that these particular people are extremely compassionate, but it will leave a positive impression on many viewers. I am inclined to think this is not accidental, but I have been known to be overly cynical about everything.
I have a gay friend who is just outragiously mentally unstable and narcisistic to the extreme. They have personality faults just like the rest of us. But if you portray one of then poorly your a bigot. The double standards today are terrible.
C
Cojuanco
Guest
OP: If you mean things like same-sex “marriage”? Do you want the short story starting with 1970 Hawaii, the longer version starting with 1930 in Lambeth and Protestants allowing birth control, or with Martin Luther definitvely breaking with the Church?
On the cront of treating them with dignity, however, well, the Catechism teaches us to avoid unjust discrimination in dealing with them. Let’s face it, people with SSA have not exactly been treated with Christian charity in the past for a whole variety of reasons. The reaction, however, has gone to the other extreme among the seculars.
On the cront of treating them with dignity, however, well, the Catechism teaches us to avoid unjust discrimination in dealing with them. Let’s face it, people with SSA have not exactly been treated with Christian charity in the past for a whole variety of reasons. The reaction, however, has gone to the other extreme among the seculars.
A
ATeutonicKnight
Guest
Other people have made good posts, but I want to point out that we are supposed to be “tolerant” of gays. Why wouldn’t we be? They are equal to us, and there’s nothing that makes them inferior. I don’t even like calling them “them” because they are normal people. You are not defined by your sexuality, therefore putting everyone into groups is wrong.
A
agapewolf
Guest
Actually, you are defined by your sexuality.
Being attracted to the same sex is not one’s “sexuality”.
Sexuality is being made male and female. and that is the heart of who we are.
J
JimG
Guest
“Healthy people in healthy cultures have a natural revulsion to the thought of same-sex sexual acts, but that natural revulsion has been eroded by the fact that, for decades, our culture has made contracepted sex the norm.”
From a National Catholic Register article.
K
Kamaduck
Guest
I have never heard the word “sexuality” used to mean sex/gender. Is there some group that I’m not aware of the does use the word that way?
Based on my current knowledge of the term, I have to agree with ATeutonicKnight that we are and should not be defined by our sexuality.
K
Kal2012
Guest
Yep. I have a friend who was married in an Episcopal church w/the P-flag flying high (you know, the rainbow flag).
The church closed a few years later. I visited them at Christmas time after that happened. They couldn’t figure out why the church closed. They spent a good 30-40 minutes explaining all that they had done to save the church. While they couldn’t figure it out, the answer just stood out to me. People don’t go to church to have politics (left or right) shoved in their face.
I just kept my mouth shut during that whole conversation because I didn’t want to talk about the issue. Still, I kept wanting to scream “It’s the damn P-flag, people”.
K
Kal2012
Guest
To answer the question, college campuses. Seriously, the first time I was exposed to this issue was at college. Everyone, it seemed, was talking about who was gay or bi.
In addition, there were the “gay studies” courses.
Also, (back in the day) some of the psychologists who wrote the DSM decided that they weren’t abnormal for being gay.
It didn’t just happen out of the blue.
Once the media got on board, there was really no stopping it.
K
Kal2012
Guest
Also, a lot of Christians dropped out of popular culture because they didn’t want to be a part of what was going on.
Things might be different if we had stayed engaged with the culture and not “given up”.
Things might be different if we had stayed engaged with the culture and not “given up”.
A
agapewolf
Guest
It is the proper use of the word.
A same sex attraction is a disorder. We are not defined by our attractions, good or bad. To say its part of our “sexuality” is doing so.
Sexuality, is, being made male or female.
E
epan
Guest
The political, or civil rights, trend started with the expansion of women’s right, which eventually led to the elimination of gender roles in marriage, over about 100 years.
On the personal side, medical experts changed their thinking.
While the trend may not have been clear, when in the midst of the changes, when viewed retrospectively, it is clear.
This change did not happen suddenly, as some seem to think.
I also believe that the civil rights movement has a momentum which results in the continual expansion of the idea of what a “right” is. This year, it is gay marriage. Next year, it will be something else which is a fringe idea now.
J
JimG
Guest
True, but a lot of Catholics and Protestants gave up and laid down their arms decades ago when they decided to accept contraception. Protestants gave up first, beginning in 1930 with the Lambeth Conference that year approving contraception for married couples for grave reasons. Married couples? Grave reasons? We see where that went. The Catholic Church maintained, as it still does, its stance against contraception, but a lot of Catholics gave up and laid down their arms with their widespread rejection of Humane Vitae after 1968.
That essentially threw in the towel, breaking the link between marriage and procreation. After that, the sexual revolution was inevitable, as was gay marriage.
E
erlembald
Guest
I think one has to differentiate between the dogmatic and the pastoral dimension. I have a gay collegue who is one of the most decent men I know…yet, as a traditionalist-leaning person I still know that homosexuality is ethically wrong.
I think we can only pray for our homosexual friends, and deliver them to the grace of God. God will make the final call, and while we are limited by the sacraments and commandments, HE is not. If I could chose between justice (i.e., the consequent application of justice) and grace, I would - for the sake of my friends - always chose grace. I am simply extremely grateful that this decision is out of my hands and in one’s whom I absolutely, unconditionally trust. God.
I think we can only pray for our homosexual friends, and deliver them to the grace of God. God will make the final call, and while we are limited by the sacraments and commandments, HE is not. If I could chose between justice (i.e., the consequent application of justice) and grace, I would - for the sake of my friends - always chose grace. I am simply extremely grateful that this decision is out of my hands and in one’s whom I absolutely, unconditionally trust. God.
E
EasterJoy
Guest
Actually, people who are shown kindness and caring are the most likely to be kind and caring. Even if the kindness was rare and the nastiness the norm, it is the kindness that makes its mark on a vulnerable person. People who are put down their entire lives can be wonderful, but when someone grows up feeling that the entire society has rejected and marginalized them, it is more of a recipe for making someone insecure, cynical, or nasty. It is the experiences of acceptance and connection that help us dare to reach out to accept and connect, even if those were too rare.
Still, I would not conclude that someone tempted to disordered sex is any more likely to be a nasty person than someone with a propensity to an eating disorder or a physical addiction. The truth is that a) our temptations don’t make us guilty, let alone guilty of essentially unrelated sins, and b) if the temptation is deep-seated, that flaw in our temperament might make us far less culpable than if someone with a typical level of temptation did the same thing. God knows who is struggling with what. More to the point, we know how well we do with the sins that tempt us the most. Usually, it is not very well. That doesn’t make the sin OK, but if we want to be judged as we judge, then we had better decide that people with deep-seated homosexual tendencies deserve a great deal of compassion for their trial, admiration for when they succeed, and compassion for when they fail. It is no less than what we’ll need, when we’re judged–especially for those thing for which we’ve rationalized ourselves a false pass, right?
C
CaliLobo
Guest
There are a lot of good points in this thread, but how about the simple answer: Because people, including Christians, realize that sexuality is immutable, and that intolerance of LGBT people is hate?
- Status