Why are protestants afraid of the word "saint"?

[why_me]

Why would a protestant be afraid of the word saint, if that word is also in the new testament? I don’t get it.

 

[brosam]

No, Mary doesn’t save anybody.

OK. So what does this canned prayer mean when it talks about depending on Mary for salvation?

 

[st_lucy]

OK. So what does this canned prayer mean when it talks about depending on Mary for salvation?

If it has been explained to you already why do you insist on telling us it means something different? There is nothing more we can say you will just continue with your accusations, because you refuse to hear the truth, your mind is already made up.

What I don’t get is why do Protestants insist that Catholics are breaking the first commandment but they themselves never realize that that they are breaking the eight by spreading falsehoods?

There does come a time in an argument when you must realize that maybe, just maybe when the person you are arguing with (in this case catholics on putting Mary first) is not lying. And as a Christian you should try to not insist that your opponent is lying. Just remember that falsely accusing a fellow Christian of wrong doing is a sin.

Just my two cents.

 

[brosam]

If it has been explained to you already why do you insist on telling us it means something different?

Nobody’s explained it. You’re all avoiding the question because you know that Mary has nothing to do with salvation, but you’re afraid to admit that the prayer is heretical.

What I don’t get is why do Protestants insist that Catholics are breaking the first commandment but they themselves never realize that that they are breaking the eight by spreading falsehoods?

OK. Tell me what I’ve said that’s false.

And as a Christian you should try to not insist that your opponent is lying. Just remember that falsely accusing a fellow Christian of wrong doing is a sin.

Then are you going to repent for just having falsely claimed that I lied?

 

[andzy]

OK. So what does this canned prayer mean when it talks about depending on Mary for salvation?

Remember that this was written by Catholics for Catholics, not for Protestants, therefore you cannot apply Protestant language/understanding here.
Let me try to explain (maybe somebody else here will have a better explanation).
First, the text you provided didn’t talk about Mary providing salvation to somebody through her own powers or some divine qualities.
Second, can we say in a Protestant way that my pastor can save me? No, he hasn’t died on the cross for my sins.
Can we say in a Catholic way that my pastor can save me? Yes! He can pray for me, teach and guide me in the faith, so that I would keep close to Christ and thus “finish the race” faithfully. And it’s not because it is him who redeems and forgives my sins, but because he participates in my salvation.
The same way not only people around me here on this earth, but also Mary and the saints participate in my salvation. Don’t forget that for Catholics there isn’t such a great divide between God’s people here on earth and in heaven (if only that the saints are closer to God in every respect).
Don’t just dismiss it and don’t accuse Catholics of idolatry only because this is not the way you have been taught and/or the way you understand these things. If you do, it won’t make your arguments any stronger; after all, it’s not very Christian to ascribe to others things they don’t believe and then accuse and judge them of such things (and it also is a bad testimony to non-Christians who look at us from outside).

 

[brosam]

Remember that this was written by Catholics for Catholics, not for Protestants, therefore you cannot apply Protestant language/understanding here.

Either you’re depending on her or you’re not. The issue isn’t Roman Catholic v Christianity, but Roman Catholic v Bible.

Second, can we say in a Protestant way that my pastor can save me? No, he hasn’t died on the cross for my sins.

Right. That’s why we don’t pray to dead pastors and tell them that we’re putting our salvation in their hands.

Can we say in a Catholic way that my pastor can save me?

No. At least not if you hold to Biblical soteriology.

Don’t just dismiss it and don’t accuse Catholics of idolatry only because this is not the way you have been taught and/or the way you understand these things.

Now, why would I accuse people who pray to stautes of dead people of idolatry?

 

[ThereseMarie]

QUOTE=brosam;2741373]Nobody’s explained it. You’re all avoiding the question because you know that Mary has nothing to do with salvation, but you’re afraid to admit that the prayer is heretical.

**MARY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION???!!!???!!!??

Wow. She gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!! How is that nothing??? Are you a misogynist? You sound like one.

Peace,**

 

[mercygate]

Either you’re depending on her or you’re not. The issue isn’t Roman Catholic v Christianity, but Roman Catholic v Bible.

Right. That’s why we don’t pray to dead pastors and tell them that we’re putting our salvation in their hands.

No. At least not if you hold to Biblical soteriology.

Now, why would I accuse people who pray to stautes of dead people of idolatry?

Catholics do not believe that the Saints are “dead.” God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

The canonization process does not “create” saints. It identifies those whose lives were so lived in union with Christ that they witnessed the Gospel in a heroic way with every fiber of their being.

The use of images in devotion was settled at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (Nicea 2). Images are not worshiped in the sense that worship is offered to God and to God alone. Much Protestantism has a shrunken view of worship based on Judaism as practice in the post-Temple age. Catholics and Orthodox retain the full spectrum of Sacrificial worship, with Jesus Christ as our Great High Priest. In Biblical terms, “worship” requires sacrifice.

Thus, Catholics and Orthodox freely use images (indeed, the Lord COMMANDED the making of images when he designed the ark, the tabernacle and the temple) in devotion. The only confusion that could arise about worship comes from 2 sources:

1. The abuse of images for devotion, in which an individual might, indeed, wrongfully give an inappropriate or even superstitious veneration to the image or to the saint portrayed in the image. This would NOT be the teaching or practice of the Church. It is an abuse.
2. The single English word “worship” is often used to convey various levels of honor that are distinct in Greek. True worship is reserved for God alone. Veneration and honor may be attributed given (as Paul agrees) to others in the Communion of Saints – on earth or in Heaven.

Brosam: I urge you to stop pontificating about things of which you have no understanding. If you ask civil questions, you may actually get careful, respectful responses. There is NOTHING “unbiblical” in Catholic teaching or in authentic Catholic devotional life. NOTHING.

 

[andzy]

Now, why would I accuse people who pray to stautes of dead people of idolatry?

Maybe because you don’t even attempt to understand what it is that those people actually believe? :doh2:
You’re acting like a non-Christian falsely accusing others of what they themselves don’t understand (like ancient Romans accusing early Christians of cannibalism because of their celebration of the Holy Eucharist, or todays liberals accusing Christians of homophobia). :tsktsk:
Anyway, this is way off topic, and the answers regarding Mary and praying to the saints can be found on other threads.

 

[brosam]

Maybe because you don’t even attempt to understand what it is that those people actually believe?

OK. Correct me: what part of praying to statues of dead people isn’t idolatry?

 

[brosam]

Catholics do not believe that the Saints are “dead.” God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Then why does the Bible say that God is the God of both the living and the dead?

Who are the “dead in Christ” that the Bible talks about?

The canonization process does not “create” saints. It identifies those whose lives were so lived in union with Christ that they witnessed the Gospel in a heroic way with every fiber of their being.

So, those who don’t make “sainthood” didn’t live in union with Christ or witness the Gospel?

The use of images in devotion was settled at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (Nicea 2). Images are not worshiped in the sense that worship is offered to God and to God alone. Much Protestantism has a shrunken view of worship based on Judaism as practice in the post-Temple age. Catholics and Orthodox retain the full spectrum of Sacrificial worship, with Jesus Christ as our Great High Priest. In Biblical terms, “worship” requires sacrifice.

Brosam: I urge you to stop pontificating about things of which you have no understanding. If you ask civil questions, you may actually get careful, respectful responses. There is NOTHING “unbiblical” in Catholic teaching or in authentic Catholic devotional life. NOTHING.

Purgatory, praying to the dead, rituals for salvation, the sinlessless of Mary, papal infallibility…

Anybody who believes that these things are Biblical hasn’t read the Bible.

 

[mercygate]

Then why does the Bible say that God is the God of both the living and the dead?

Who are the “dead in Christ” that the Bible talks about?

Are you deliberately obtuse, or do you really not GET this?

So, those who don’t make “sainthood” didn’t live in union with Christ or witness the Gospel?

Every person who is in Heaven is a Saint. The Church has identified some, of whom we are CERTAIN that they are in Heaven as worthy of public veneration. “Sainthood” is not limited to those whom the Church publicly recognizes as Saints. I believe my grandmother is a saint. The Church might even concur privately, but she is not someone who may be publicly venerated.

Purgatory, praying to the dead, rituals for salvation, the sinlessless of Mary, papal infallibility…

Anybody who believes that these things are Biblical hasn’t read the Bible.

Anybody who makes a statement like this has not really studied the issues. Frankly, Brosam, you scare me. There are millions of people like you who misunderstand and loudly misrepresent Catholic teaching, claiming their own knowledge of the Bible as the authority for their position.

Brosam: Your knowledge of Scripture as witnessed in your contributions to these threads is, to put it charitably, inadequate.

 

[ThereseMarie]

*Purgatory, praying to the dead, rituals for salvation, the sinlessless of Mary, papal infallibility…

Anybody who believes that these things are Biblical hasn’t read the Bible.*

AGAIN: Stop making stuff up. You are trying to be a magician and make things appear and disappear in the Bible to suit your own infallible doctrine. The unfortunate thing is that we also have Bibles and can clearly see that you are taking enormous liberties with your interpretations.

Stick to Scripture, Sam.

 

[Outback]

OK. Correct me: what part of praying to statues of dead people isn’t idolatry?

Brosam, with the greatest of respect, are you interested in understanding or simply telling us how wrong we are based on your faith tradition (which is all it is, by the way)? As Mercygate stated so eloquently, the saints are alive and in communion with God. They are what is referred to as the Church Triumphant. I hope to someday join them. In the meantime, I will use the example of their lives of obedience and faith to bring me closer to the Father, through His Son.

That may be idolatry to you, but with respect to your position, you could not be more wrong.

 

[andzy]

Then why does the Bible say that God is the God of both the living and the dead?
(…)
Anybody who believes that these things are Biblical hasn’t read the Bible.

That’s funny! I guess then you’re reading a different Bible from what all other Christians use - Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, because I’ve read the Bible, and it affirms my beliefs in Catholic teachings.
Seriously, you must be reading some interesting version of the Bible, because I looked up some 10 (Protestant) translations, and they all say that God is the God of the living, not of the dead (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38).

A couple suggestions: a) why don’t you create a new thread, because you’re getting way off topic, b) if you’re serious about your questions, why don’t you read the answers, that others have already given.

 

[mercygate]

That’s funny! I guess then you’re reading a different Bible from what all other Christians use - Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, because I’ve read the Bible, and it affirms my beliefs in Catholic teachings.
Seriously, you must be reading some interesting version of the Bible, because God is the God of the living, not of the dead (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38).

A couple suggestions: a) why don’t you create a new thread, because you’re getting way off topic, b) if you’re serious about your questions, why don’t you read the answers, that others have already given.

Well, one thing is pretty sure, Brosam is probably using a short Bible – one that is missing 7 books.

 

[unacanta]

So, even though the Bible says that Jesus is our advocate, you dismiss this and choose to believe that Mary is your advocate?

You’re telling me that, even though the Bible tells us that it is Jesus and Jesus alone who saves, you’re going to pray to this dead woman to save you? When did Mary die on a cross for your sins?

Brother, I think you failed to read my ending words concerning the prayer.

No thanks, I will stick to trusting in only Jesus. No one should question whom I worship. There are reasons the Reformers had several “solas” in their doctrine.
Una

 

[unacanta]

Remember that this was written by Catholics for Catholics, not for Protestants, therefore you cannot apply Protestant language/understanding here.
Let me try to explain (maybe somebody else here will have a better explanation).
First, the text you provided didn’t talk about Mary providing salvation to somebody through her own powers or some divine qualities.

Correct. The prayer is from the supplicant placing their salvation and soul in her hands. We know that only though Jesus do we have salvation. The point is, why would someone pray such a pray to an enity who is not capable of delivering the request. Our prayers to the Lord are an act of worship. Hence, Protestants assume the Catholic praying the prayer is in an act of worship. The supplicant is not just requesting Mary to intercede, but placing their very salvation and soul in her hands.

[SIGN]In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do I entrust my soul.[/SIGN]

Second, can we say in a Protestant way that my pastor can save me? No, he hasn’t died on the cross for my sins.
Can we say in a Catholic way that my pastor can save me? Yes! He can pray for me, teach and guide me in the faith, so that I would keep close to Christ and thus “finish the race” faithfully. And it’s not because it is him who redeems and forgives my sins, but because he participates in my salvation.

Likewise, the Catholic Pastor (Priest) can’t save us either. Both Pastors do pray, teach and guide but always with the Holy Spirit.

The same way not only people around me here on this earth, but also Mary and the saints participate in my salvation. Don’t forget that for Catholics there isn’t such a great divide between God’s people here on earth and in heaven (if only that the saints are closer to God in every respect).

Of course there lies the rub. Salvation is a gift given by Christ to the believer. Friends, neighbors, saints living or in heaven with the Lord, and Mary have nothing to do with our salvation. It has only one source. Scripture has much to say, however it or at least to my understanding in the Catholic mind is not the final authority regarding spiritual matters.

Don’t just dismiss it and don’t accuse Catholics of idolatry only because this is not the way you have been taught and/or the way you understand these things. If you do, it won’t make your arguments any stronger; after all, it’s not very Christian to ascribe to others things they don’t believe and then accuse and judge them of such things (and it also is a bad testimony to non-Christians who look at us from outside).

Well said. I am involved in Prison Ministry and I have Catholics whom attend a bible study I lead. That is the reason I am here, trying to gain a better understanding of the RCC theology. Hopefully by reading the post here I can gain a better understanding where the inmates are in their walk with the Lord.

Blessings,
Len

 

[unacanta]

QUOTE=brosam;2741373]Nobody’s explained it. You’re all avoiding the question because you know that Mary has nothing to do with salvation, but you’re afraid to admit that the prayer is heretical.

**MARY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION???!!!???!!!??

Wow. She gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!! How is that nothing??? Are you a misogynist? You sound like one.

Peace,**

Not to interject here, but your logic that “She gave birth to the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD” would logically lead to Pilate whom sentence Christ to death on the cross also has part of salvation. After all, according to your logic, Christ would never have died had he not sentenced him just as He would not had life if Mary had not utter the words “be it unto me”

Salvation is a gift from God through the man Christ, He needs no help in administering it. Salvation would have come regardless of Mary or Pilate. “My words will not return void” rings in our ears. Both of them just as Paul was chosen instrument, but the instrument should not be honored but rather the Musican who plays it.

In the mighty Son’s name,
Len

 

[brosam]

That’s funny! I guess then you’re reading a different Bible from what all other Christians use - Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, because I’ve read the Bible, and it affirms my beliefs in Catholic teachings.
Seriously, you must be reading some interesting version of the Bible, because I looked up some 10 (Protestant) translations, and they all say that God is the God of the living, not of the dead (Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:27, Luke 20:38).

From the New American Standard Bible:

Romans14:9 -
Christ died and rose again for this very purpose, so that he might be Lord of those who are alive and of those who have died.

From the American Standard Bible:

Romans 14:9-
For to this end Christ died and lived [again], that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

From the English Standard Bible:

Romans 14:9 -
For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

From the NKJV Bible:

Romans 14:9 -
For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

From the KJV:

Romans 14:9 -
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

From the Holman Standard Bible:

Romans 14:9
Christ died and came to life for this: that He might rule over both the dead and the living.

There are about a dozen other translations I’ll be happy to cite for you, but I’m sure you get the idea.