Why are so many catholics anti-2nd amendment?

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Adamski

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One theory I have is so many catholics are urban, which means they depend on the police and have never gone hunting.

I live 35 miles from a police station and at any time there is only 1-2 officers on duty on my half of the county. I have close encounters with 1 coyote, 2 mountain loins, 2 bears and 1 break in in the last 14 years.
 
Gun ‘control’ doesn’t mean complete confiscation across the board. Guns have legitimate farming and other commercial purposes.
 
In the gun control thread in the Social Justice section, the vast majority of Catholics are not anti-gun.

The numbers are much more even in the big picture, but that’s only if you include cafeteria Catholics. On an actual Catholic forum such as this, you’re always going to find most people are not anti-gun. The exception would be if you visit an Anglo country. England is uniquely hostile towards gun ownership. Even Germany and Scandinavia, which are otherwise generally more liberal then England, they are more apathetic towards the subject. They don’t own guns personally, but they’re not as fearful towards them as an ethnic Anglo might be.

It’s related to ethnicity and subculture more than it is on Catholicism itself. New England has been annexed by secular liberalism and New England is also Irish. That makes for a lot of anti-gun people that also happen to be nominally Catholic, because their grandmother asked their parents to baptize their kids and they swing into the parish on Advent. There isn’t necessary a link between the two. If you go to Texas (where Catholicism is experiencing healthy growth) you’re not going to find the same sentiment.

Although admittedly, it’s very difficult to find a subculture that is more “pro gun” than conservative protestant US. Catholics might not be gung-ho about it in the way that they are, but that isn’t to say that they’re anti-gun either.

Personally I support the right to gun ownership, but it’s not an issue I honestly care a whole lot about compared to certain other things. To some of the more flamboyant gun owners, that could still be perceived as not necessarily “pro gun”.

Catholic ethnic groups that are anti-gun are those groups which are in the process of dying out. Most of their children are disengaged with the Church.
 
LongingSoul said:
Gun ‘control’ doesn’t mean complete confiscation across the board. Guns have legitimate farming and other commercial purposes.
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The AR-15 is the great equalizer against evil, a handicapped person could fend of 3 people with pistols
 
Adamski said:
The AR-15 is the great equalizer against evil, a handicapped person could fend of 3 people with pistols
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The majority of guns used for crime are either stolen or borrowed from someone in the first place. How would a disabled person with an AR-15 go against 3 persons with AR-15s stolen from other disabled persons? How would he equalise the scene then?
 
Adamski said:
One theory I have is so many catholics are urban, which means they depend on the police and have never gone hunting.
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But gun control doesn’t affect guns for hunting purposes, does it?

I don’t think that theory works. Much more to the point, Catholics put the value of human life above an abstract commitment to autonomy, which seems to lie behind the gun issue. Guns are symbols of masculinity. But Christians are called to be crucified with Jesus, and that means giving up the kind of masculinity that is symbolized by gun ownership. (Note: that doesn’t mean don’t own guns, only that gun ownership is an idol in this country. People find their identity in it rather than in the Cross of Jesus.)

Edwin
 
LongingSoul said:
Gun ‘control’ doesn’t mean complete confiscation across the board. Guns have legitimate farming and other commercial purposes.
Click to expand...
Just a little insight into the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution for those outside the US–
While you’re right that there are uses for guns such as hunting, etc., the reason this right was included by our Founders was to ensure that the citizens could keep a rogue government in check, if it ever came down to that. (They wanted the power to be with the people, even it the physical sense.)

I agree with that principle. The problem is that when that 2nd amendment was written, the people could own firepower which was pretty much equal to the government’s (pistols/muskets), so it was a legitimate check/balance. But nowadays, to have the citizens bear arms that equal the government’s, we’d have to be allowed to own tanks and missiles, which obviously can’t happen.

So we in the USA have a dilemma – we want to keep the 2nd amendment (at least I sure do!) but the initial reason for the amendment isn’t quite as practical anymore. Yet saying that we should have the right to own guns merely for hunting or to fend off robbers sounds pretty weak. So it’s a Catch-22.
 
Contarini said:
But gun control doesn’t affect guns for hunting purposes, does it?

I don’t think that theory works. Much more to the point, Catholics put the value of human life above an abstract commitment to autonomy, which seems to lie behind the gun issue.
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Over 50 percent of Catholics voted for a staunch pro abortion president in the USA. I’m not sure that it wasn’t ones liberal political ideology that ruled the day than the value of human life.
 
Adamski said:
One theory I have is so many catholics are urban, which means they depend on the police and have never gone hunting.

I live 35 miles from a police station and at any time there is only 1-2 officers on duty on my half of the county. I have close encounters with 1 coyote, 2 mountain loins, 2 bears and 1 break in in the last 14 years.
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Who says they are?

Linus2nd
 
Adamski said:
One theory I have is so many catholics are urban, which means they depend on the police and have never gone hunting.

I live 35 miles from a police station and at any time there is only 1-2 officers on duty on my half of the county. I have close encounters with 1 coyote, 2 mountain loins, 2 bears and 1 break in in the last 14 years.
Click to expand...
I think that is largely an Eastern and Urban attitude rather than a Catholic one. Most Catholics that I know are very strongly in favor of our 2nd Amendment Constitutional Rights.
 
I own a gun for last ditch defense. I feel like it is sensible to have one, but I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all. I bought a revolver which unlike guns with magazines can be thrown in a drawer and forgotten about, once you are trained to use it, which I am.

I don’t care if others own guns, as long as they are responsible. The second amendment came about to keep the government mindful about about abusing it’s citizenry, and I think that was a healthy move.

A third benefit [aside from hunting and target shooting] is that in the highly unlikely event our national defense ever eroded to the point a hostile power considered invading the US mainland, they would be faced with a very large standing army.

Really, this is a personal choice issue in my mind. One can own a weapon and not be a part of the culture of death. Amazing but true.
 
LongingSoul said:
The majority of guns used for crime are either stolen or borrowed from someone in the first place. How would a disabled person with an AR-15 go against 3 persons with AR-15s stolen from other disabled persons? How would he equalise the scene then?
Click to expand...
Actually many disabled people are still able to buy guns. Think back to the 2011 Tucson shooting. Laughner was so disabled hat he was smiling in his mugshot.
 
Can you provide any data to support your opinion that “so many” Catholics are anti-2nd amendment?

I don’t know any Catholics who are “anti” 2nd amendment.
 
I am not pushing to repeal the Second Amendment. Is that what you mean by anti-2nd amendment?

I would like to point out, however, that states and countries with tighter gun control usually have lower rates of gun death.
 
Beryllos said:
I am not pushing to repeal the Second Amendment. Is that what you mean by anti-2nd amendment?

I would like to point out, however, that states and countries with tighter gun control usually have lower rates of gun death.
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Do you have a cite for this?
 
Adamski said:
One theory I have is so many catholics are urban, which means they depend on the police and have never gone hunting.

I live 35 miles from a police station and at any time there is only 1-2 officers on duty on my half of the county. I have close encounters with 1 coyote, 2 mountain loins, 2 bears and 1 break in in the last 14 years.
Click to expand...
I concur with your theory (minus the hunting comment). But it’s not a Catholic thing, it’s more of a local government thing, a subject of local police coverage.

If you use the Jesusland map as a reference for defining “Blue States” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesusland_map#mediaviewer/File:Jesusland_map.svg all of these states except for Delaware, Maryland, CA, OR, and WA have local townships (some call it different, but they have them). They each have local police even if they do not live in an incorporated city. In total, 20 states have Townships en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_(United_States

For example, I grew up in rural Southern Delaware and now live in Suburbs of Philadelphia (a non-incorporated area). The local police station for my parents in Delaware is the State Police, who are responsible for a big area. My parents don’t have a local or county police department. In PA, my local police is my township police department. Basically, every township has their own police department. Everyone in the State of PA either lives in an Incorporated City or Town (call boroughs in PA) or in a Township.

So what does this mean… if you live in the Suburbs and you are worried about criminals coming to your house to rob you, your view might be influenced by how quick the Police can show up to your house. The further away or large the jurisdiction of your police department, the more you might feel you need a gun. The close the station and smaller the jurisdiction, the less you might feel you need a gun and want them out of the criminal’s hands.

In closing, I don’t think it’s a Catholic issue. But I do think it’s a subconsciouses by-product of local police coverage & response time.

God Bless
 
Beryllos said:
I am not pushing to repeal the Second Amendment. Is that what you mean by anti-2nd amendment?

I would like to point out, however, that states and countries with tighter gun control usually have lower rates of gun death.
Click to expand...
I’d like to point out that CT & CA have the tightest gun laws in the Nation!
 
I think there is a big difference between anti second amendment (no guns at all) and pro gun control. I have no problem with guns and really enjoy target practice and dont have any problem with hunting. I also have work experience woking in psychiatric wards and inner cities plagued by gun violence, while I lived in Chicago the constant onslaught of easy to acquire weapons from out of state made the gang violence much worse.
  • As far as the legal/historical purpose goes I disagree with the SCOTUS and think that militia clearly refers to militias regulated by the various states and not anyone with a rifle, but as far as my response goes thats beside the point.
  • Courts have ruled that all rights are limited, including voting and even life itself since the death penalty has been upheld.
  • My reasons for supporting gun control, background checks and waiting periods before purchasing weapons and ammunition is related to the massive risk for assault and suicide.
  • The data for assault and murder is hard to examine across societies/countries Israel/Switzerland have lots of guns in homes but they are for military use so how do you count them? They are accessible but the people that have them have been screened/trained so they cant be used as a justification for the kind of lax gun laws some people promote. Also should you count the number of homes with access to guns or the number of guns in a household when doing the math?
  • I am sure that rural vs urban plays a role but I suspect it has more to do with seeing the impact of the lack of gun control and living so closely with neighbors than police response times, after all in many inner city areas response time is slow to the point of no response. Walking past random gang violence on your way to school has a pretty big social/psychological impact. Living in a dense urban area and using public transit tends to make people more aware of other peoples social/economic problems despite the stereotype to the contrary.
Suicide
hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/
cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm
thinkprogress.org/health/2013/11/14/2945661/study-guns-suicides/

Gang Violence
articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-17/news/ct-met-guns-gangs-20130217_1_levaine-tanksley-gun-laws-gun-trafficker

Murder
crimepreventionresearchcenter.org/2014/03/comparing-murder-rates-across-countries/
theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
 
When should gun control stop. The Government is chipping away in most states. I’m in CA, look-up the latest gun laws. Now they successfully implementing another gun control law. It’s called ammo control. You can look that up too. With all the guns in the world, you can’t fire a shot w/o ammo.
 
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