Why are so many Evangelicals becoming Orthodox and not Roman Catholic?

[Kathy2004]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal
Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

Here is an article that claims over 150,000 people were received into the RCC this year and that is not including infants: usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-071.shtml

I converted in 2005 into the RCC. I was a non-denomination-charismatic-evangelical. I came in kicking and screaming but the Lord Jesus Christ brought me in. He showed me in so many ways that this is the Mother Church that He wanted me in. He answered all my questions and fears. I had prayed to know truth. I was tired of Church hopping and all the nonsense that goes on. I wanted historic stability which I thought would come from Messianic Judaism. I was surprised at where I found it.

I almost dropped out of RCIA several times. Once I was watching a program on EWTN, the speaker said that we could ask the Blessed Virgin Mary to come into our heart. I was shocked, I said, “that’s it, I can not do this, that is blasphemy.” I was crying to the Lord about it. I was so upset because I did not know where to go. I had already seen too much and knew I couldn’t go back to Protestant Church. It was like when Peter told the Lord, “where can I go, only you have the words of life.” All of a sudden a had an explanation go through my mind that put me at peace. I believe it was a intellectual revelation. I understood that Mary was like Eve before the fall and that it had to be that way so she could give birth to the second Adam who was Jesus. Adam and Eve disobeyed.The Blessed Virgin Mary obeyed by saying yes. Jesus, as the second or last Adam resisted Satan and defeated him thereby redeeming us from the fall, unlike what Adam did. They reversed the curse.

Before this revelation, I could not believe in the Immaculate Conception. Now I have a better understanding of it.

Marian devotion is very hard to accept for most non-Catholics and it has taken me a while to feel comfortable praying the Rosary. I think this is a major roadblock for others who would like to convert to the RCC.

I had another experience with the Pope that I might share some other time. The Lord cleared that up for me as well.

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church! I pray and believe that we will be unified soon.

 

[dzheremi]

I really don’t mean to be a wet blanket, but it always fascinates me that many Catholics apparently see reunion with the Orthodox as something of an inevitability, and even sometimes as something that is fated to happen soon. Why? What exactly are you basing this on?

I wish that I could see all of these signs that you are all apparently seeing! I really do.

 

[Zlatan]

I was raised a fundamentalist Pentecostal but I decided to leave Pentecostalism once I saw the utter stupidity and hatred it provokes. I don’t know how any thinking human being could become an evangelical and I feel sorry for any such converts. :dts:

 

[JesusforMadrid]

I think you are correct.

How many converts to Catholicism arIiIe registered every Easter…150,000? They have to come from somewhere, it could conceivably be that more Evangelicals join the RC, although the way they find themselves making that decision can vary quite a bit.

Hold on here. I am not saying that globally or in the US the absolute number of Evangelical converts to Orthodoxy is greater than to the RC church. I am, however saying two things that are fairly incontrovertable:

1. There is a NET conversion of RCs to Evangelical churches, both globally (the South American effect) as well as in the US. Evangelical churches in America have grown by attracting mainline Protestant and Roman Catholics. The RC church in the US has not experienced decline in membership like the mainline churches due to immagration.
2. The relative shift of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy rather than the RC church is incredible. The Orthodox Church in the US is fast growing due largely to attracting Evangelicals. Given that there are 100 RC parishes for every 1 Orthodox, we would have to see many more thousands of Evangelicals converting to the RC church. The disproportionate numbers of Evangelical converts in Orthodox parishes, seminaries, Orthodox publishing and radio in the US is highly significant indeed.

 

[Peter_J]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

Sounds good to me. Heck, I’m glad that so many Orthodox converts are former Evangelicals, rather than former RCs.

 

[Hesychios]

Hold on here. I am not saying that globally or in the US the absolute number of Evangelical converts to Orthodoxy is greater than to the RC church. I am, however saying two things that are fairly incontrovertable:

1. There is a NET conversion of RCs to Evangelical churches, both globally (the South American effect) as well as in the US. Evangelical churches in America have grown by attracting mainline Protestant and Roman Catholics. The RC church in the US has not experienced decline in membership like the mainline churches due to immagration.
2. The relative shift of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy rather than the RC church is incredible. The Orthodox Church in the US is fast growing due largely to attracting Evangelicals. Given that there are 100 RC parishes for every 1 Orthodox, we would have to see many more thousands of Evangelicals converting to the RC church. The disproportionate numbers of Evangelical converts in Orthodox parishes, seminaries, Orthodox publishing and radio in the US is highly significant indeed.

OK, I see the point.

 

[Hesychios]

Sounds good to me. Heck, I’m glad that so many Orthodox converts are former Evangelicals, rather than former RCs.

To be honest, that would be OK by me too.

 

[thunderballs75]

This is because the Orthodox are the only real traditional ones anymore. I can barely stand going to Mass anymore because it is just like going to an evangelical service. The NO Mass is no more reverent than a protestant church service. In fact, I’d say that many of the Protestant services are more reverent than the Catholic ones!

 

[dvdjs]

… Neither the Ukrainian Catholic nor the Ruthenian Catholic liturgies are just like the Orthodox, although in a few places they try very very hard to recover it. Mostly they are too compromised. I would grant that the Melkite liturgy is very Orthodox and almost indiscernible from the Antiochian Orthodox in practice.

I did, however, attend a very small Russian Catholic (actually Belorussian) mission in Chicago, and I will tell you that even though the priest was actually a Latin, it was the most authentic liturgy.

I had a teacher who, in explaining that there are 230 three-dimensional crystallographic space groups, first rigorously proved that there is one and only one three-dimensional crystallographic space group, and then proved that there are an indenumerable infinity of them. It wasn’t hard to grasp the lesson that without rigorous criteria and norms such categorizations are meaningless.

And so it is with “just like”, “indiscernible from”, “most authentic”, and “too compromised”. The latter, being pejorative and unsupported by objective criteria, is plainly disrespectful.

So, what are you really talking about Hesychios?
For example, if what is linked and discussed at the following link is Orthodox, then what exactly are your norms of “authentic” and of “too compromised”? byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/317893/Live%20Internet%20Broadcast%20from%20J#Post317893

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

It seems to me that the OP’s comments refer only to the USA and traditionally Catholic countries of Latin America, but we would benefit from expanding the discussion to address what’s happening in traditionally EO countries. Thus, while it is true that large numbers of Catholics convert to become Evangelical Protestants in Brazil or Mexico, I would be very interested in whether EO people in EO countries leave Orthodoxy in large numbers to become Protestants. I am familiar with the situation in Romania, since I was born and raised there. In Romania, which is a historically EO country, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Jehovah’s Witnesses had a growing presence already during the Communist years. Apparently the number and visibility of Protestants/Evangelicals has further increased in the last 20 years, since the downfall of Communism. I wonder about the situation in Russia and former members of the USSR. A Russian acquaintance told me that Bible-based Protestant organizations have appeared in Moscow and these were virtually absent during the Communist years. I have mixed feelings about the expansion of Protestant denominations and organizations in countries such as Romania. On the positive side, they are devoid of the disturbing nationalism of the EO Church which in Eastern Europe sometimes borders on chauvinism and has been guilty of stoking national hatred. Also, they attract people who would not join the EO Church anyway, being disillusioned with the EO Church for various reasons. On the negative side, I realize that EO people who become Protestants will miss out on the Eucharist and other Sacraments.

And then, at least in Western Romania, there are many former EO people joining the Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic Churches.

It seems to me that there’s a net outflux from EO to Catholic and Protestant/Evangelical Churches in Romania, but my assessment is based on anecdotal evidence and I don’t have statistics. The Romanian EO Church (about 20 million members) is the second largest after the Russian, has more members than the Greek EO. But again, I would be quite interested about the situation in countries such as Russia and Ukraine.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

Gabriel of 12;

For one, lets us give praise to God for these Evangelicals converting to Catholicism whether it be Eastern Orthodoxy Rite, Roman Catholic Rite, or Eastern Orthodoxy not in communion with the successor of Peter present day Pope. One thing is sure, they have found the “True Christian faith”.

Because many of the Eastern Catholic church’s are independent of one another as far as authority is concerned to their Culture and language Rites, may be an invitation to converting Evangelicals (who are accustomed to operating as an independent Church) so as not to accept the biblical authority of the Roman Catholic Magisterium set by Jesus himself. After many years of protesting against such Petrine doctrines from the Catholic Church. The Eastern Church may be a welcome to them, especially to those Seperated Eastern Rites not in full communion with the Successor of Peter, which may welcome their protest against the Roman Catholic Rite, converting the Evangelical into already schism with the body of Jesus Christ.

It would be better for the Evangelical to convert to “Eastern Orthodoxy” not in schism with the Roman Ponitff. As far as Catholicism is concerned no matter the Rite if valid, Roman Catholics applaud the Evangelicals conversion to the body of Jesus Christ Whether be Eastern Rite, or Roman Rite all are welcomed.

To my personal knowledge, South American Catholics converting to Evangelicals, are attracted to this “United States” Evangelical movement, for the attraction Evangelicals give them in the “Wealth and health” Evangelical gospel preaching. Much to the Evangelical missions that open the doors of freedom to many of these government impovrished communities with the hope to visa in or become a U.S Citizen. not to mention a relaxed liberal Catholicism from the arena in somber from centuries of existance. This new religion or freedom to interpret scripture by ones own authority without a Magisterium or teaching authority combined with the atmosphere of becoming a U.S Citizen or visa into the U.S makes change a most welcome atmosphere for the political impoverished.

 

[Kathy2004]

It seems to me that the OP’s comments refer only to the USA and traditionally Catholic countries of Latin America, but we would benefit from expanding the discussion to address what’s happening in traditionally EO countries. Thus, while it is true that large numbers of Catholics convert to become Evangelical Protestants in Brazil or Mexico, I would be very interested in whether EO people in EO countries leave Orthodoxy in large numbers to become Protestants. I am familiar with the situation in Romania, since I was born and raised there. In Romania, which is a historically EO country, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Jehovah’s Witnesses had a growing presence already during the Communist years. Apparently the number and visibility of Protestants/Evangelicals has further increased in the last 20 years, since the downfall of Communism. I wonder about the situation in Russia and former members of the USSR. A Russian acquaintance told me that Bible-based Protestant organizations have appeared in Moscow and these were virtually absent during the Communist years. I have mixed feelings about the expansion of Protestant denominations and organizations in countries such as Romania. On the positive side, they are devoid of the disturbing nationalism of the EO Church which in Eastern Europe sometimes borders on chauvinism and has been guilty of stoking national hatred. Also, they attract people who would not join the EO Church anyway, being disillusioned with the EO Church for various reasons. On the negative side, I realize that EO people who become Protestants will miss out on the Eucharist and other Sacraments.

And then, at least in Western Romania, there are many former EO people joining the Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic Churches.

It seems to me that there’s a net outflux from EO to Catholic and Protestant/Evangelical Churches in Romania, but my assessment is based on anecdotal evidence and I don’t have statistics. The Romanian EO Church (about 20 million members) is the second largest after the Russian, has more members than the Greek EO. But again, I would be quite interested about the situation in countries such as Russia and Ukraine.

One word explains why people leave Orthodoxy for Protestant sects:

                      **EVANGELIZATION**

They preach the gospel message and bring people to Jesus. Protestant Churches have more activities and fellowship than most Catholic/Orthodox Churches that make people feel wanted and loved. They actively express their faith and are enthused about the Life. The praise and worship is another attraction.

I already had a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus before I became Catholic. I was taught to love scripture and went to a lot of Bible studies. I went to Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa in the early days. There was something going on every night. This gave me a good foundation and I am grateful for what I learned there. Now, I did have to relearn much of what I was taught about scripture and I did have a lot of false preconceived ideas, but that is ok. The Lord has His ways. I was at least attempting to follow our Lord.

I am glad that the RCC is now into evangelization, thanks to John Paul II. This has brought good energy and excitement to the Church. People are starting to take their faith more seriously. I think the threat of losing Catholics to other sects has created a lot of positive actions that should have been there to begin with. The Lord is cleansing the Church.

I think also this is the reason why many evangelicals are converting to Orthodoxy. They love Jesus but want stability. It is a move of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hesychios]

^^^^^
The above is a good post!

 

[Pani_Rose]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

MIGHT i ASK YOU WHY SO MANY OF THE ‘TOP’ EVANGELICAL AND OTHER PROTESTANT PASTORS AND LEADERS ARE BECOMING CATHOLIC? Some examples would be Allen Hunt and Francis Beckwith.

The journey back

Dr. Francis Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church. (He was raised Catholic and received the sacraments of initiation as a child and young person). Most of the post centers on the tussle over ETS matters and leadership, (he has resigned from the presidency) but:

There is a conversation in ETS that must take place, a conversation about the relationship between Evangelicalism and what is called the “Great Tradition,” a tradition from which all Christians can trace their spiritual and ecclesiastical paternity. It is a conversation that I welcome, and it is one in which I hope to be a participant. But my presence as ETS president, I have concluded, diminishes the chances of this conversation occurring. It would merely exacerbate the disunity among Christians that needs to be remedied.

The past four months have moved quickly for me and my wife. As you probably know, my work in philosophy, ethics, and theology has always been Catholic friendly, but I would have never predicted that I would return to the Church, for there seemed to me too many theological and ecclesiastical issues that appeared insurmountable. However, in January, at the suggestion of a dear friend, I began reading the Early Church Fathers as well as some of the more sophisticated works on justification by Catholic authors. I became convinced that the Early Church is more Catholic than Protestant and that the Catholic view of justification, correctly understood, is biblically and historically defensible. Even though I also believe that the Reformed view is biblically and historically defensible, I think the Catholic view has more explanatory power to account for both all the biblical texts on justification as well as the church’s historical understanding of salvation prior to the Reformation all the way back to the ancient church of the first few centuries. Moreover, much of what I have taken for granted as a Protestant—e.g., the catholic creeds, the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, the Christian understanding of man, and the canon of Scripture—is the result of a Church that made judgments about these matters and on which non-Catholics, including Evangelicals, have declared and grounded their Christian orthodoxy in a world hostile to it. Given these considerations, I thought it wise for me to err on the side of the Church with historical and theological continuity with the first generations of Christians that followed Christ’s Apostles.
​

amywelborn.typepad.com/openbook/2007/05/the_journey_bac.html

%between%
**
**

 

[mark_a]

There is a bias against RC ecclesiology and the papacy among most Evangelicals, no?

And so these converts get the perceived advantages of liturgy, tradition, apostolic succession, and the sacraments without the perceived drawbacks.

Yep.

And it’s articulated very well in this article.

 

[SSTeacher]

I know, I know, I know. Many posters on Catholic Answers are Evangelical converts to Roman Catholicism. But lets be clear: every year there are thousands, perhaps millions more Roman Catholics who are becoming Evangelical. Estimates were that in the largest RC country, Brazil, a million Catholics were joining evangelical churches every year. Visit an American non denominational evangelical church and you will find, based on my experience, that a quarter to a third of the congregation were raised Roman Catholic.

Now, about converts to Orthodoxy: let us attend!

There has been a steady stream of converts, some well known such as Frankie Schaeffer (son of Francis) and Rod Dreher (Crunchy Con and former protestant and then RC). Over 80% of converts to Orthodoxy in the US are former Evangelicals and charismatics. Over 50% of the priests at Orthodox seminaries in the US are converts, mostly former Evangelicals. In the Antiochian Orthodox jurisdiction, perhaps 70% of priests are former Evangelicals. 2000 former members of the Evangelical Orthodox Church converted in one day. Several parishes from the troubled Charismatic Episcopal Church have joined Orthodoxy en masse in the past year, using the Western Rite.

You can read about this trend here:

orthodox-church.info/eureka/asp/becomingorthodox.asp

What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.

I chose Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism for several reasons but perhaps the most compelling was the Orthodox approach to worship.

When I first heard, “O Gladsome Light,” I was transported. It was so ethereal. I couldn’t get it out of my head. Standing in the presence of the Lord to worship in Great Vespers and the Divine Liturgy was for me a new and engaging experience. It seemed strange at first but now it seems quite natural. Orthodox worship is focused entirely on the Lord. Evangelical worship, on the other hand, is people–focused. The Novus Ordo Missae seems to me to be more like Evangelical worship. I could never declare that I was worshipping in spirit and in truth if I had to endure a Novus Ordo Missae every week knowing that Orthodox Christians were standing in the presence of the Lord in the way that they do and singing and chanting His praises.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[Religio71]

it seems that liturgics is a common attraction to Orthodoxy. I’ve attended Divine Liturgy (in english thankfully ) and found it amazing. However, a properly done Novus Ordo Mass, with singing, incense, etc. is also beautiful, and nothing like Evangelical worship. In fact, just reading the text of the Novus Ordo shows that it really isn’t similar to Evangelical services. I’ve also noticed, especially in cities, the Novus Ordo being offered in Latin, which is a great experience as well.

I think more Catholic parishes need to have “fuller” service schedules. I’ve noticed that Orthodox churches will have matins, vespers/vigil, Divine Liturgy, Akathist, etc. Some Catholic churches just have Mass at various times of the day. In Cathedrals, this is of course different. You would have various side chapels and shrines, lighting candles, Mass, novenas, Adoration and Benediction (with confession during adoration), rosary, etc. If only this would be more widespread cantius.org/

Orthodox liturgies are also always sung, which is nice to hear and experience.

 

[Kathy2004]

I really don’t mean to be a wet blanket, but it always fascinates me that many Catholics apparently see reunion with the Orthodox as something of an inevitability, and even sometimes as something that is fated to happen soon. Why? What exactly are you basing this on?

I wish that I could see all of these signs that you are all apparently seeing! I really do.

I think if you look with spiritual eyes, you will see the purpose of God in having a unified Church. God is one. The Church is one body with many members, but these members are not yet unified in purpose.

The sign for me is all the converts to Orthodoxy in one form or another, including myself. I did not set out to be Catholic on my own. It was the Holy Spirit that led me into all truth just like Jesus promised.

The Church is being purified and many changes are happening for the good.

Matthew 16:18 RSV

[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In Ephesians 5:27 Paul writes: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.

Is there some reason why you do not think this should happen?

 

[SSTeacher]

However, a properly done Novus Ordo Mass, with singing, incense, etc. is also beautiful, and nothing like Evangelical worship.

I daresay. But the fact is that when the Novus Ordo Missae isn’t “properly done” it is “improperly done” and that was a telling point for this writer and seeker.

Ecumenically,
Mick

 

[Religio71]

I daresay. But the fact is that when the Novus Ordo Missae isn’t “properly done” it is “improperly done” and that was a telling point for this writer and seeker.

Ecumenically,
Mick

I agree. I attended a Mass at my university where the congregation said the Doxology (Through him, with him, in him…) with the priest The mass coordinator thought this was ok, as “each mass has a different feel”

I’d say that the Divine Liturgy probably has less abuses than the Novus Ordo.