Why are so many Evangelicals becoming Orthodox and not Roman Catholic?

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I think if you look with spiritual eyes, you will see the purpose of God in having a unified Church. God is one. The Church is one body with many members, but these members are not yet unified in purpose.

The sign for me is all the converts to Orthodoxy in one form or another, including myself. I did not set out to be Catholic on my own. It was the Holy Spirit that led me into all truth just like Jesus promised.
What do you mean by “Orthodoxy”? If we are talking about reunion of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, then don’t you think that considering yourself already “Orthodox” by virtue of being Catholic actually does your position a disservice? If “Orthodoxy in one form or another” is any and all of the Apostolic Churches, then we probably would not be having this conversation. Obviously, there is more to being “large O” Orthodox or “large C” Catholic than just belonging to one or the other Church, as we are not in communion with each other…for a reason…well, for many reasons. I definitely applaud your desire to see past divisions, but I guess I was looking for something more concrete that would point to the inevitability of reunion, because as it is I am not seeing it.
Is there some reason why you do not think this should happen?
Perhaps I did not express myself clearly enough. No one would like to reunite with the Orthodox more than I, but I think that all the wanting in the world will not change the theological and ideological positions that divide us. There certainly is no wiggle room on issues of Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, and the other things that Orthodox Christians view as “inventions”, and since they obviously already feel that they are right on all of these issues, while Catholics feel that their own Church is right, I don’t so much see it as a matter of letting the Church be guided as Jesus set forth, as both Churches already believe that this is what is happening with regard to their own Church.
 
I chose Orthodoxy rather than Catholicism for several reasons but perhaps the most compelling was the Orthodox approach to worship.

When I first heard, “O Gladsome Light,” I was transported. It was so ethereal. I couldn’t get it out of my head. Standing in the presence of the Lord to worship in Great Vespers and the Divine Liturgy was for me a new and engaging experience. It seemed strange at first but now it seems quite natural. Orthodox worship is focused entirely on the Lord. Evangelical worship, on the other hand, is people–focused. The Novus Ordo Missae seems to me to be more like Evangelical worship. I could never declare that I was worshipping in spirit and in truth if I had to endure a Novus Ordo Missae every week knowing that Orthodox Christians were standing in the presence of the Lord in the way that they do and singing and chanting His praises.

Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Respectfully,
Mick
👍
Isn’t Catholicism Orthodox?

I understand how you felt when you heard that song that transported you into the heavenlies. I had a similar experience when I visited the RCC before I converted. I had a compulsion to go visit and arrived just as the Holy Communion procession line was converging towards the altar. I was sitting in the very back of the Church. The song "One bread, One Body was being sung by a Lady with a beautiful angelic voice. At that moment, I visualized people throughout the world doing the same thing. I felt the unity in the RCC with this song and the Eucharist and I yearned for it too. This was a pivotal moment in my conversion experience.

Here is the song:
youtube.com/watch?v=ggPW0qOZdyI&feature=related

The Holy Mass is all about Jesus. I feel the same way you do about that. I had heard that Catholics did not read the Bible, but the Liturgy is all scripture! I love it. It is not about personality at all or wanting the preacher to feed you like how I felt in Protestant Churches. It is all Jesus and communion with Him. How awesome!

I just got back from a Benedictine Abbey here where I live. I participated in Vespers and I love singing and chanting the Psalms too!

I do not understand the fuss over the Novus Ordo Missae. Can you explain why you feel that way? Have you attended a Mass at the RCC?
 
I agree. I attended a Mass at my university where the congregation said the Doxology (Through him, with him, in him…) with the priest :eek: The mass coordinator thought this was ok, as “each mass has a different feel” :eek:
Forgive my ignorance. What’s a “mass coordinator”?
I’d say that the Divine Liturgy probably has less abuses than the Novus Ordo.
You sound like a Catholic who laments the intrusion of marketplace values, practices and terminology into the House of God. There are probably many who feel as you do.

I’d go a little further with my analysis, though. I’d suggest that there are no abuses in the Divine Liturgy. How could an abuse possibly creep in? I can’t envision a way that it could happen. Can you?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
Forgive my ignorance. What’s a “mass coordinator”?

You sound like a Catholic who laments the intrusion of marketplace values, practices and terminology into the House of God. There are probably many who feel as you do.

I’d go a little further with my analysis, though. I’d suggest that there are no abuses in the Divine Liturgy. How could an abuse possibly creep in? I can’t envision a way that it could happen. Can you?

Cordially,
Mick
👍
At my university, a mass coordinator was the person who made the schedule for lectors, cantors, eucharistic ministers, etc.

As a Catholic, I just want to see the Mass said the way it should be. It wasn’t right for the laity to say the Doxology with the priest, since, to my understanding, only the priest says it. The response “each Mass has a different feeling/flavor” doesn’t work, because you can’t change who says what in the Mass for a “different flavor”.

I actually have noticed Orthodox discussing liturgical abuses on Orthodox forums. Again, it may be harder for those to happen, but I wouldn’t say there are no abuses that happen.
 
At my university, a mass coordinator was the person who made the schedule for lectors, cantors, eucharistic ministers, etc.
OK, now I get it.
As a Catholic, I just want to see the Mass said the way it should be. It wasn’t right for the laity to say the Doxology with the priest, since, to my understanding, only the priest says it. The response “each Mass has a different feeling/flavor” doesn’t work, because you can’t change who says what in the Mass for a “different flavor”.
I can appreciate your way of thinking.
I actually have noticed Orthodox discussing liturgical abuses on Orthodox forums. Again, it may be harder for those to happen, but I wouldn’t say there are no abuses that happen.
Interesting. Any details you might be able to pass on to me?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
 
What is happening? Why are these Evangelicals becoming Orthodox in such great numbers and not Roman Catholic? I have my own theories but would love to understand this better.
I have been batting these questions around in my head for a couple weeks now, and have been looking for just such an opportunity to hash some of this stuff out with others.

I can only speak to Lutheran churches, really. But Lutherans in many ways are in the same boat as most others in the “comfy mainline protestant middle,” just to varying degrees depending on the synod.

This article has prompted some of the same questions for me as the OP, except with a more Lutheran spin. I think there are many today who believe that in the next decade, many of us will need to make a choice- full-on evangelical, or a retreat back to the ancient church (or at least a retreat back to ancient church liturgies). At once there are two conflicting pressures on many protestant congregations, from the individuals who attend on up through the clergy. The first pressure is to fight irrelevance due to what the OP terms “evangelical christianity” - perhaps in some ways synonymous with fundamentalism, but more of the “new age” churches, the “megachurches,” etc. For some congregations, the choice is to become more like the evangelicals or watch younger members drift into the non-denominational church across the street because they sing christian rock songs.

The other pressure is losing membership to Rome and Orthodoxy. I don’t have a statistic, but there are enough that go in that direction- particularly clergymen- to make it a valid concern.

And thus, each congregation is ultimately given a choice. They can go hard “church growth” (a ridiculous term denoting the “church growth” movement, also known as “emulate the megachurches”) and abandon the old liturgies, or they can stick to their guns and hope for the best. Keep in mind, no matter what the Pastor chooses, he potentially is losing some of his flock. Possibly enough of it over time to make the congregation suffer financial difficulties.

Many in my particular synod, much to my dismay, play around with “church growth” principles. It starts out with putting up a powerpoint presentation so people can follow along easier, then it’s throwing out the old Red Hymnals, and before long, it’s ripping out pews and installing couches and cappuccino machines. When one is willing to make the church into a coffee shop, how far behind will little compromises on doctrinal issues be?

Anyway, there is pressure to make a choice. When that choice needs to be made, in my experience, it has usually been in favor of “church growth” and evangelicals. Thus, those clinging to the old ways either must give up the fight or find a new home. Rome or Orthodoxy is a major question, and I’m not sure where I would end up today if I took the leap.

On the one hand, there is a cultural affinity with Rome. I feel like if I were to walk into a Catholic Church tomorrow, I would roughly know the blueprint of the mass, and not make a total fool of myself. There is also the aforementioned article, which notes that Lutheranism is a Catholic movement, and if Lutheranism is in its twilight (for a variety of reasons which have only IMO been exacerbated since the article I linked to was written), the default posture is to go back to the church from whence we came.

On the other hand, there are certain disagreements with Rome that still exist within the community at large, and with myself individually. Some of those disagreements are resolved by the fact that in Orthodoxy, there is no Papacy. I think there is an argument, for some very persuasive, that it is legitimate to feel that while their cultural affinity is with Rome, the history of the Roman Church and specifically the rise of the Papacy indicates that something has gone terribly wrong at some point with Western Christianity. And whatever happened in the West, it didn’t happen in the East. So I could see how it would be easier for some in this position to gravitate more toward Orthodoxy, despite a stronger historical and cultural connection with Rome.

I don’t necessarily endorse either side of the choice to be made, really, since everyone has their own circumstances by which they come to ponder the OP’s question. I think were I to have to make the choice, it would probably be with Catholicism- but I am a “dance with the girl who brung you” type of person. I also believe in Lutheranism as a Catholic reform movement, not as something that exists for the sake of existing. Thus, it would make little sense for me either in terms of theology or personal/denominational history to go Orthodox, since my own conception of being a Lutheran is one irrevocably tied to Rome.

However, it’s a very difficult question. I’m not sure I could hold it against a person (protestant) trying to make the choice, no matter which of the two they ended up in.
 
Isn’t Catholicism Orthodox?
I have been received into the Orthodox Church of America as a catechumen. The Orthodox Church of America isn’t a part of the Catholic Church. It isn’t “in communion with Rome.”
I understand how you felt when you heard that song that transported you into the heavenlies. I had a similar experience when I visited the RCC before I converted. I had a compulsion to go visit and arrived just as the Holy Communion procession line was converging towards the altar. I was sitting in the very back of the Church. The song "One bread, One Body was being sung by a Lady with a beautiful angelic voice. At that moment, I visualized people throughout the world doing the same thing. I felt the unity in the RCC with this song and the Eucharist and I yearned for it too. This was a pivotal moment in my conversion experience.

Here is the song:
youtube.com/watch?v=ggPW0qOZdyI&feature=related
That was quite beautiful. I enjoyed it greatly. Thank you for providing that link.
The Holy Mass is all about Jesus. I feel the same way you do about that. I had heard that Catholics did not read the Bible, but the Liturgy is all scripture! I love it. It is not about personality at all or wanting the preacher to feed you like how I felt in Protestant Churches. It is all Jesus and communion with Him. How awesome!
Most of the Evangelicals I encountered didn’t read the Bible, either. They got their thoughts and ideas from their pastor and/or Sunday school teacher.
I just got back from a Benedictine Abbey here where I live. I participated in Vespers and I love singing and chanting the Psalms too!
It’s a wonderful way to worship.
I do not understand the fuss over the Novus Ordo Missae. Can you explain why you feel that way? Have you attended a Mass at the RCC?
When I lived in south London back in the 1970s I met Michael Davies. He lived quite near me. We became friends and I used to chauffeur him and his family to the Great Western Hotel where the Society of Saint Pius X rented a room for £150 every Sunday morning for a Tridentine Mass, which had been suppressed by the Catholic Church in favor of the Novus Ordo Missae. It was sad to see those older Catholics so crushed by the direction their Church had taken. The Tridentine Mass was very reverent (I went to the Novus Ordo Missae in the UK and I would say there was a huge difference between the two). Michael told me that Father Faber called the Tridentine Mass “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven.” I hung around with those SSPX guys for a few years. Michael was a primary school teacher and he used to write a “Letter from London” for The Remnant. I think he eventually became the President of Una Voce. I eventually lost interest in the whole thing and drifted into an attitude hovering somewhere between agnosticism and deism. Then, about nine years ago, I entered American Evangelical circles (I emigrated from the UK and came to live in the States in 1990 after I married a southern girl in 1989).

I was quite content with my new life as an Evangelical and I guess I’d still have been an Evangelical if the church I’d joined had remained the same. Sadly, the Sunday morning worship deteriorated into Sunday morning entertainment and I eventually left in disgust. As I went looking for another church, I became uneasy about the Evangelical/Protestant position and that eventually led me to address the notion of the “One True Church.” There’s a choice of two. The Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. I chose the latter.

Informatively,
Mick
👍
 
I have been batting these questions around in my head for a couple weeks now, and have been looking for just such an opportunity to hash some of this stuff out with others.

I can only speak to Lutheran churches, really. But Lutherans in many ways are in the same boat as most others in the “comfy mainline protestant middle,” just to varying degrees depending on the synod.

This article has prompted some of the same questions for me as the OP, except with a more Lutheran spin. I think there are many today who believe that in the next decade, many of us will need to make a choice- full-on evangelical, or a retreat back to the ancient church (or at least a retreat back to ancient church liturgies). At once there are two conflicting pressures on many protestant congregations, from the individuals who attend on up through the clergy. The first pressure is to fight irrelevance due to what the OP terms “evangelical christianity” - perhaps in some ways synonymous with fundamentalism, but more of the “new age” churches, the “megachurches,” etc. For some congregations, the choice is to become more like the evangelicals or watch younger members drift into the non-denominational church across the street because they sing christian rock songs.

…However, it’s a very difficult question. I’m not sure I could hold it against a person (protestant) trying to make the choice, no matter which of the two they ended up in.
Í’ll chime in, since I am a craddle Lutheran and share many of your concerns with my own Anglican confession.

I read your link and thought it quite interesting. I have long thought that Lutheranism could be revived by reconnecting with its roots. I am not sure how institutionally it should do so, but a greater anchoring with the Fathers would be a good start. The Confessing movement and the Paleo-Orthodox movements within the mainline churches reflect this aim. The Lutheran Marva J. Dawn has written about the need for worship which glorifies God and not just seeker sensitive, all of which resonates with me.

I have read extensively about the “emerging church” and it is one of the things that eventually led me to look for something that was more stable, but not stale.

“More stable” Christianity can be found in looking back to the historic church, which may be Orthodoxy (following people like Jaroslav Jan Pelikan into the Eastern Church) or Roman Catholicism or perhaps something else. But Evangelicals cannot just invent things and expect to hold people’s attention over time, at least not thinking people. Our hip Evangelical pastors like Rob Bell posit “new” ideas that border on universalism, without being aware of the fact that Origen said something very similar in the second century and was universally condemned for it. We eventually get tired of the private interpretations of individual pastors and look for authority and context. Some of us will choose the authority of Rome, although I think Evangelicals disproportionally are being attracted to Orthodoxy, for many of the reasons that are stated above.

The challenge is to keep the medium fresh without changing the content. I would not mess with the Divine Liturgy–I mean not at all so please don’t crucify me-- or the Catholic or Lutheran equivalents. However, I think there are other things that churches can do to maintain “community” and keep church “relevant”, such as separate praise and worship times (in whatever style but aimed at glorifying God), healing services, separate apologetics and Q&A meetings or “Alpha” courses, etc. The Orthodox Church in particular seems to be hostile to the charismatic movement, which outside of the US is having a huge effect on global Christianity. I would love to understand how all those former charismatics are getting on in Orthodoxy: do they jettison the charismatic gifts entirely or is the Orthodox Church receptive to the charismatic gifts apart from mystical experiences of the saints and one healing service during Great Lent?
 
Í’ll chime in, since I am a craddle Lutheran and share many of your concerns with my own Anglican confession.

I read your link and thought it quite interesting. I have long thought that Lutheranism could be revived by reconnecting with its roots. I am not sure how institutionally it should do so, but a greater anchoring with the Fathers would be a good start. The Confessing movement and the Paleo-Orthodox movements within the mainline churches reflect this aim. The Lutheran Marva J. Dawn has written about the need for worship which glorifies God and not just seeker sensitive, all of which resonates with me.

I have read extensively about the “emerging church” and it is one of the things that eventually led me to look for something that was more stable, but not stale.

“More stable” Christianity can be found in looking back to the historic church, which may be Orthodoxy (following people like Jaroslav Jan Pelikan into the Eastern Church) or Roman Catholicism or perhaps something else. But Evangelicals cannot just invent things and expect to hold people’s attention over time, at least not thinking people. Our hip Evangelical pastors like Rob Bell posit “new” ideas that border on universalism, without being aware of the fact that Origen said something very similar in the second century and was universally condemned for it. We eventually get tired of the private interpretations of individual pastors and look for authority and context. Some of us will choose the authority of Rome, although I think Evangelicals disproportionally are being attracted to Orthodoxy, for many of the reasons that are stated above.

The challenge is to keep the medium fresh without changing the content. I would not mess with the Divine Liturgy–I mean not at all so please don’t crucify me-- or the Catholic or Lutheran equivalents. However, I think there are other things that churches can do to maintain “community” and keep church “relevant”, such as separate praise and worship times (in whatever style but aimed at glorifying God), healing services, separate apologetics and Q&A meetings or “Alpha” courses, etc. The Orthodox Church in particular seems to be hostile to the charismatic movement, which outside of the US is having a huge effect on global Christianity. I would love to understand how all those former charismatics are getting on in Orthodoxy: do they jettison the charismatic gifts entirely or is the Orthodox Church receptive to the charismatic gifts apart from mystical experiences of the saints and one healing service during Great Lent?
Christ is risen!

I wouldn’t say that the Orthodox Church is hostile to gifts from the Holy Spirit, after all the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit occurs every Sunday when the bread and wine become Christ’s own body and blood. 👍 However, the Orthodox Church rejects what people call the “charismatic movement” that occurred in the 60s or so. It’s a Johnny-come-lately in Christianity and doesn’t hold up to experiences that people have had throughout the history of the Orthodox Church, i.e. the Saints.

If you’re interested, there is a podcast from Ancient Faith radio that discusses people who converted to Orthodoxy. The episode from 15 May is about a former Charismatic Episcopal minister converting. I thought it was a good episode, you might think so, too. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
I think if you look with spiritual eyes, you will see the purpose of God in having a unified Church. God is one. The Church is one body with many members, but these members are not yet unified in purpose.

The sign for me is all the converts to Orthodoxy in one form or another, including myself. I did not set out to be Catholic on my own. It was the Holy Spirit that led me into all truth just like Jesus promised.

The Church is being purified and many changes are happening for the good.

Matthew 16:18 RSV

[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In Ephesians 5:27 Paul writes: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish.

Is there some reason why you do not think this should happen?
I realize that this article is from 2007, but it could be a sign also?:

timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1403702.ece
 
Harpazo;52427 said:
Christ is risen!

I wouldn’t say that the Orthodox Church is hostile to gifts from the Holy Spirit, after all the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit occurs every Sunday when the bread and wine become Christ’s own body and blood. 👍 However, the Orthodox Church rejects what people call the “charismatic movement” that occurred in the 60s or so. It’s a Johnny-come-lately in Christianity and doesn’t hold up to experiences that people have had throughout the history of the Orthodox Church, i.e. the Saints.

If you’re interested, there is a podcast from Ancient Faith radio that discusses people who converted to Orthodoxy. The episode from 15 May is about a former Charismatic Episcopal minister converting. I thought it was a good episode, you might think so, too. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew

Thanks for that. I listened to it. I think the best thing for the troubled CEC and the growing American Orthodox church would be for the CECs to all become Orthodox!

Still, a quick read of the Didache shows that the Early Church was sacramental, liturgical and charismatic. Does the Orthodox Church welcome, say, prophets as they did in the first and second centuries?
 
Thanks for that. I listened to it. I think the best thing for the troubled CEC and the growing American Orthodox church would be for the CECs to all become Orthodox!
I think that would be wonderful! Many of them did and I pray those that have entered the Church will be a good example to their brethren in the CEC that were unsure.🙂
Still, a quick read of the Didache shows that the Early Church was sacramental, liturgical and charismatic. Does the Orthodox Church welcome, say, prophets as they did in the first and second centuries?
I’m not sure about prophets, per se, at least not in the Old Testament, nor the Mormon sense of the term. Also not in the sense that the Roman Church has pseudo-prophets (although I don’t think they’re called prophets, but rather “mystics”) with all of these people who supposedly have divine revelations or these prophetic apparitions with the Theotokos telling them to build a shrine to her. I don’t think that has ever happened in Orthodoxy. I know that there are many holy elders on Mt. Athos and other monasteries, such as Valaam, Optina, and especially those in Egypt. Reading the lives of some of the Saints from these places it’s quite apparent that God has given them prophetic gifts, but nothing new pertaining to the faith of the Church

Because the Orthodox Church believes that all revelation stopped with the death of the last Apostle, the Church is very, very wary of any new items of faith and fiercely takes into account that verse in 2nd Corinthians about receiving messages from others.

I hope that helps. I’m a little wordy and not too good at explaining. :o

In Christ,
Andrew
 
ATEISTS BECOMING ORTHODOX

I have little experience with Evangelical Baptists who become Orthodox but there is a great number of ateists now becoming believers and even ecclesiastically formed Orthodox christians. In Soviet Union ateism was never studied because it was assumed most “regular” people were ateist. But probably was in fact committed or “believing” ateist was 60-80% of population in 1970-1980.

According to a study in 1989 in former Soviet Union there were 6000 Orthodox churches with 5 million believers who regularly attended services and completed sacraments of confession and communion (4% of population). By 2005 this was 12,600 churches with 9.5 active Orthodox christians (8.5% population). Moreover now 35% of population claims to be Christian believerers, even if not ecclesistically-formed.
 
ATEISTS BECOMING ORTHODOX

I have little experience with Evangelical Baptists who become Orthodox but there is a great number of ateists now becoming believers and even ecclesiastically formed Orthodox christians. In Soviet Union ateism was never studied because it was assumed most “regular” people were ateist. But probably was in fact committed or “believing” ateist was 60-80% of population in 1970-1980.

According to a study in 1989 in former Soviet Union there were 6000 Orthodox churches with 5 million believers who regularly attended services and completed sacraments of confession and communion (4% of population). By 2005 this was 12,600 churches with 9.5 active Orthodox christians (8.5% population). Moreover now 35% of population claims to be Christian believerers, even if not ecclesistically-formed.
Volodymyr, thanks for that update. 8.5% practicing Orthodox Christians is not bad, taking into account that Christians were persecuted previously for more than 70 years, in certain regions. The total number of practicing Christians in former Soviet Union, including Catholics and Protestants /Evangelicals, probably exceeds 10%. Western European countries such as France and Germany may in fact have less than 10% practicing Christians, which is of course a shame. I remember that a few years ago, 53% of the USA population were practicing Christians (probably similar today). And in Ghana, Africa, some 80% are practicing Christians now.
 
Í’ll chime in, since I am a craddle Lutheran and share many of your concerns with my own Anglican confession.
My feeling is that the Anglican experiment seems in a dire situation. I go to a Continuing Anglican parish (as Episcopalianism in the US is headen towards Unitarian Universalism), but I’m not sanguine about the survival of traditional Anglicanism. Maybe if I lived in Asia or Africa I’d feel differently. Even the Africans seem obsessed, in some ways, with turning Anglicanism into a confessional faith, something that Anglo-Catholics and broad-church would prefer to avoid.

The hard part I would have, for me about converting to Roman Catholicism, even Orthodoxy… it’s just not “reformed” enough. Orthodoxy and Roman Catholics both seem to go nuts about the Virgin Mary and saints. Catholics create Marianisms with their official dogma, and Orthodox with “Tradition”. I read the early Fathers, and I don’t see this huge Marian piety, not until later centuries.

Just an example - the Bible says that Christ first appeared to Mary Magdalene, but if you were to ask a devout Orthodox or Roman Catholic… they would tell you that he first visited his own mother, the Virgin Mary. Yet this only appears in a 5th-6th century speculation on the part of a later Father, and later in post-Schism Roman Catholic piety. I think sometimes the testimony of the Bible is lost in there. And placing John the Baptist as the 2nd in heaven is completely unbiblical in many ways (didn’t Christ himself say there would be many others greater than the St. John the Forerunner? What does that mean?). We just don’t know about some of these things beyond Tradition, and the Tradition is hardly unanimous (after all, Roman Catholic would probably have St. Joseph as #2… even though the more ancient tradition said it was St. John the Baptist, itself problematic based on Christ’s own words).

Anglo-Catholic Anglicanism, while having alot of Catholic sacramentality, and piety (and occasionally Orthodox, too), has always had a Reformed or even Evangelical sensibility, focusing on the Bible as the highest authority, THEN Tradition, reason, and experience.
 
I think that would be wonderful! Many of them did and I pray those that have entered the Church will be a good example to their brethren in the CEC that were unsure.🙂

I’m not sure about prophets, per se, at least not in the Old Testament, nor the Mormon sense of the term. Also not in the sense that the Roman Church has pseudo-prophets (although I don’t think they’re called prophets, but rather “mystics”) with all of these people who supposedly have divine revelations or these prophetic apparitions with the Theotokos telling them to build a shrine to her. I don’t think that has ever happened in Orthodoxy. I know that there are many holy elders on Mt. Athos and other monasteries, such as Valaam, Optina, and especially those in Egypt. Reading the lives of some of the Saints from these places it’s quite apparent that God has given them prophetic gifts, but nothing new pertaining to the faith of the Church
I’m not sure about prophets, per se, at least not in the Old Testament, nor the Mormon sense of the term. Also not in the sense that the Roman Church has pseudo-prophets (although I don’t think they’re called prophets, but rather “mystics”) with all of these people who supposedly have divine revelations or these prophetic apparitions with the Theotokos telling them to build a shrine to her. I don’t think that has ever happened in Orthodoxy. I know that there are many holy elders on Mt. Athos and other monasteries, such as Valaam, Optina, and especially those in Egypt. Reading the lives of some of the Saints from these places it’s quite apparent that God has given them prophetic gifts, but nothing new pertaining to the faith of the Church

Thanks for this. I recognise that the Orthodox Church never “lost” the idea of the Holy Spirit, as perhaps the Western Churches did, and therefore are sceptical about the charismatic movement as a new innovation. Nonetheless, I think it is a pity that the Orthodox Church does not recognise more the orthopraxis of the charismatic spiritual gifts.
Because the Orthodox Church believes that all revelation stopped with the death of the last Apostle, the Church is very, very wary of any new items of faith and fiercely takes into account that verse in 2nd Corinthians about receiving messages from others.
I hope that helps. I’m a little wordy and not too good at explaining. :o
In Christ,
Andrew
I would be interested in how the Orthodox Church views prophecy in the Early Church. Clearly, it is not infallible like Scripture, but it nonetheless occurred in the first few centuries, so if you are correct, than the Orthodox Church doesn’t consider “prophecy” to be “revelation”. St. Paul encourages prophecy (e.g. I. Cor. 14) for the edification of the church, and the Didache has special instructions for how to treat itinerant prophets. As for other gifts, many Orthodox, it would seem, would benefit from healing services apart from the Anointing Service on Wednesday during Great Lent.

I think there is nothing in Orthodox doctrine that would inhibit greater reliance on the charismatic gifts (in a biblical way). I would be interested to see how Orthodoxy reacts to an increasingly charismatic Christian world. I know that there are some Orthodox priests such as Fr. Eusebius A. Stephanou who are very involved already in the movement, although I don’t know how they mix traditional Orthodoxy with charismatic gifts.
 
As an Evangelical Anglican, I am clearly grappling with many of these issues. I too have many doubts about Marian piety. For me, there are several aspect of Orthodoxy that make it more palatable than going to Rome:
  1. Authority. I like the idea of authority coming from the Holy Spirit, through the laity, which recognises a particular doctrine as being consonant with the Scriptures and the consensus of the Early Church, what the Orthodox group together to define as “Tradition”. The idea of a monarch-like pope as final authority, and speaking infallibly ex cathedra, doesn’t square with my reading of Scripture and the Early Church
  2. Organization. I like the conciliar approach of the Orthodox rather than the rigid authoritarian approach of Rome. Granted, conciliar approaches produce friction and disputes, as we see even in the book of Acts. Yet I think it is the more Biblical approach.
  3. Filioque. This seems like an arcane issue, but in fact I think the logic of the Orthodox position is compelling, aside from historical arguments for why or why not. If the Holy Trinity is a triangle, by adding the filioque clause to the creed, Rome has inverted the Trinity, putting Jesus and God on top and relegating the Holy Spirit to a position of inferiority. It is argued by Orthodox that this has practical effects, when played out over 1000 years of church history. First, the Holy Spirit has a historically less important role in the RC churches than in the Orthodox Churches. Second, by elevating Jesus over the Holy Spirit, the RC church has implicitly elevated Mary as well and this manifests itself in the extremes of Marianism in the RC church to which you refer.
  4. Mary. You refer to your difficulties with this and while some Roman Catholics will gloss over the differences in doctrine between the two churches, Orthodoxy has not succumb to the same elevation of Mary to a almost quasi-divine status as has the RC church. I have not ever seen, for example, an icon of just the Theotokos in an Orthodox Church: she is always holding Jesus. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I do not think they exist. By contrast, the first thing you see in many RC churches, at least in my country, is a statue of Mary at the front of the Church, sometimes above the Cross! I have absolutely no fear that the Orthodox would adopt ever more elaborate titles for the Theotokos such as Co-mediatrix or Co-redemtrix. I am speaking here more about impressions than fundamental doctrine, which I know is similar, except for the IC.
  5. Mystery versus scholasticism. I think the EO, by avoiding the tendency of scholasticism, have avoided wrongly defining several doctrines. For example, I don’t understand why the need for defining transubstantiation as such. The EO position is actually remarkable similar to the Lutheran position of co-substantiation, as has been shown in recent dialogues between the two churches.
I have followed the solid, logical arguments by RCs in favour of purgatory and indulgences. However, defining these as such is unnecessary, especially when these cannot be defended by the consensus of the fathers, in my opinion. If one is going to speculate, as Augustine did regarding purgatory, so be it, but do not elevate this to dogma.

Of course, there are arguments for avoiding Orthodoxy as well: jurisdictional chaos, very foreign and seemingly endless liturgies (albeit beautiful), the “ethnic” nature to many Orthodox parishes. Still, seems more compelling to me if I were to make the switch.

I would love to check out Western Rite Orthodoxy, because it might seem more familiar liturgically to me.
 
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