Why are so many Muslims violent?

[staffsgt7]

StaffSergeant, Thank you for your thoughts.

I fear your sources are not entirely unbiased, and that weakens your argument. The organizations which published the report you cited are both highly partisan and neither is an expert on matters of either theology or history. The document to which you referred is an extraordinarily biased and fearmongering discussion of Islamic finance and was written with a clear agenda.

As thoughtful people, I believe it is imperative that we seek knowledge from unbiased scholarly sources. In that way we can examine the evidence and evaluate it ourselves. Therefore, I recommend slam: The Straight Path by John L. Esposito as a reliable, unbiased introduction to the history and tenents of Islam. Esposito is a reliable source of accurate information because he is a scholar, not a politician. If you will examine his cv, you’ll see that his books have been published by esteemed University presses (nonprofit publishers with the explicit aim of furthering knowledge.)

I will now withdraw from the discussion of this topic. I’ve said my piece. I’m not likely to explain any better than I have thus far.

Pax

Dettingen

When someone doesn’t agree with you they are now biased? Islam’s history won’t agree with you then.

I don’t need anyone to interpret the Koran and Hadith for me, I read it myself. I can’t believe that you don’t think that John Esposito is not biased! You need to check out his background and you will indeed find the Muslim Brotherhood and wahabbists behind him. And as for that group understanding Christianity, how come they do not allow Christians to worship freely in Saudi Arabia?

And the Universities are nothing but their playground. If you read the Muslim Brotherhood report you would find that they have been working at infiltrating and brainwashing since the 1960s. The Muslim Student Association is the Muslim Brotherhood’s organization. Here is a document that tells of the scheming by the Muslim Brotherhood to start up their organizations in America, to get a political party (the Democrat party seems to have been willing to accept the Muslim Brotherhood), and CAIR, ITS, ICNA, ISNA, etc. Take note of where Al Qaeda, Hamas, and others sit on this chart.

http://educateusa.com/AnamatedNetwork.gif

 

[sedonaman]

Explain to me exactly why I’m wrong (but let me guess, you won’t have an answer to that – just more emotive hyperbole and bumper sticker slogans )

You made a number of outrageous claims without offering any proof. At least I had an academic study as a reference.

 

[jakasaki]

To Sam_777 and other Arabic reading members.

There was an article from Alawan, on, 12 August, 2009,

Titled:

“Anyone who claims that Jihad does not originate from the Islamic religion is lying.

” (من قال إنّ الجهاد ليس من الدين فقد كذب!)

Link:
alawan.org/%D9%85%D9%86-%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%84-%D8%A3%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%AF.html

Can you translate that for me because there is no English translation.

And also, it’s been said that the banners they have on their heads, (headbands) say something like “allah akhbar” - “allah is great” can you also confirm that.

But my main interest in translating the news article and what is states.

Thanks much!

 

[yankee_doodle]

One last thing, what about the Spanish Republic of 1936 it was irreligious and the first thing that happened was the burning of Catholic Churchs, convents and the killing of priests, nuns, etc, etc, etc. There were allmost 7000 Catholic religious murdered in the first part of the Spanish Civil War and over 10,000 Catholic Churchs burned. The Catholic Church didn’t do this. In the Modern world all government control is bad.

and in reaction the CC supported Franco (who later offered soft support to Hitler and Mussolini). Nevertheless, this all occurred in a very Catholic Europe. Even Russia, prior to the Bolsheviks was a very Catholic state (Eastern Orthodox). However, IMO the flaw in your reasoning is you overrate the influence of religion on this part of our history. The industrial revolution eventually resulted in a triumph of the middle class of industrialists and businessmen over a landed class of nobility and gentry. In the system that previously existed, the church did legitimize the status quo (in turn for in kind support from the nobility and gentry). This remained true through the feudal period, and the enlightenment (which saw substantial revolution and unrest, but ultimately victory for freedom and democracy), right up through much of the industrial revolution (until the latter part of the 19th century when the church began to take up the cause of workers).

Arguably the CC became involved in the labor movement (in the late 19th century) in response to growing communist sentiment in Europe (although I do think part of the reason was genuine concern for workers among some clergymen). I’ll use Marx’s own words to explain the chief complaint concerning religion among communists:

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

Arguably different regimes and empires throughout time have exploited religion for their own ends. For instance, Hitler was prone to quoting John Chrysostom and Martin Luther. The Romans held a view that they were the divinely appointed masters of their entire region (instead of manifest destiny they termed it Mare Nostrum, meaning “our sea” – referring to the Mediterranean); and in fact the Romans quite often exploited the religious beliefs of conquered peoples to subdue them and guarantee their long term patronage (and its own citizens held a view very similar to the view held by some Americans today – of a divine mandate of sorts).

Communism is as we know a failed system. In a sense we can say it was a primitive and not well thought out reaction to the problem of labor exploitation, which made the fatal mistake of ignoring human nature (and the desire of every person to have a sense of accomplishment and a unique identity).

Today we know the invisible hand of Adam Smith works, and it is a superior system. It’s sort of comparable to the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum physics. Physicists like Born figured out that future events were not necessarily determined by past events. In short, the deterministic view of nature physicists took for granted up to that point was no longer valid. The only thing that applied was chance. Einstein himself couldn’t wrap his mind around that idea. However, ultimately Einstein was proven wrong. The primitive reaction of communism to the problems presented by the industrial revolution are analogous. The ideas of an invisible hand, or chance and probability distributions aren’t intuitive to our minds. The idea of cause and effect is so deeply rooted – it’s no wonder that people believed centralized control over the economy would serve the average person better.

So with respect these sort of associations made by theists (communism/atheism) are not well thought out. They sound more like propaganda as opposed to conclusions gleaned by rigorous academic analysis.

 

[jakasaki]

**Re: Why are so many Muslims violent? **

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 35:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "The person who participates in (Holy battles) in Allah’s cause and nothing compels him to do so except belief in Allah and His Apostles, will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr).

Had I not found it difficult for my followers, then I would not remain behind any sariya going for Jihad and I would have loved to be martyred in Allah’s cause and then made alive, and then martyred and then made alive, and then again martyred in His cause."

 

[yankee_doodle]

When someone doesn’t agree with you they are now biased? Islam’s history won’t agree with you then.

I don’t need anyone to interpret the Koran and Hadith for me, I read it myself. I can’t believe that you don’t think that John Esposito is not biased! You need to check out his background and you will indeed find the Muslim Brotherhood and wahabbists behind him. And as for that group understanding Christianity, how come they do not allow Christians to worship freely in Saudi Arabia?

And the Universities are nothing but their playground. If you read the Muslim Brotherhood report you would find that they have been working at infiltrating and brainwashing since the 1960s. The Muslim Student Association is the Muslim Brotherhood’s organization. Here is a document that tells of the scheming by the Muslim Brotherhood to start up their organizations in America, to get a political party (the Democrat party seems to have been willing to accept the Muslim Brotherhood), and CAIR, ITS, ICNA, ISNA, etc. Take note of where Al Qaeda, Hamas, and others sit on this chart.

http://educateusa.com/AnamatedNetwork.gif

I’m aware of the problems you’re mentioning here (albeit many of these financing sources for terrorism have been shut down); but I’m sort of on the fence here. I’ve seen some compelling speeches by Christopher Hutchins (whose opinion I appreciate), who takes the same tact as you do (a pretty harsh stance against Islam).

My personal knee jerk reaction was expressed in my last post to you; I get concerned when I perceive bigotry against any group (and it particularly raises a red flag when I see atheists and Christians ganging up on another group). Nevertheless, it’s not to say we shouldn’t gang up on Islam. If the religion itself will always be a threat to freedom, and there’s really no way it can ever reconcile itself with the idea of religious tolerance and democracy … then we should put it in our cross-hairs.

I’m just not convinced Islam is incapable of joining the free and democratic world

 

[staffsgt7]

and in reaction the CC supported Franco (who later offered soft support to Hitler and Mussolini). Nevertheless, this all occurred in a very Catholic Europe. Even Russia, prior to the Bolsheviks was a very Catholic state (Eastern Orthodox). However, IMO the flaw in your reasoning is you overrate the influence of religion on this part of our history. The industrial revolution eventually resulted in a triumph of the middle class of industrialists and businessmen over a landed class of nobility and gentry. In the system that previously existed, the church did legitimize the status quo (in turn for in kind support from the nobility and gentry). This remained true through the feudal period, and the enlightenment (which saw substantial revolution and unrest, but ultimately victory for freedom and democracy), right up through much of the industrial revolution (until the latter part of the 19th century when the church began to take up the cause of workers).

Arguably the CC became involved in the labor movement (in the late 19th century) in response to growing communist sentiment in Europe (although I do think part of the reason was genuine concern for workers among some clergymen). I’ll use Marx’s own words to explain the chief complaint concerning religion among communists:

Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.

Arguably different regimes and empires throughout time have exploited religion for their own ends. For instance, Hitler was prone to quoting John Chrysostom and Martin Luther. The Romans held a view that they were the divinely appointed masters of their entire region (instead of manifest destiny they termed it Mare Nostrum, meaning “our sea” – referring to the Mediterranean); and in fact the Romans quite often exploited the religious beliefs of conquered peoples to subdue them and guarantee their long term patronage (and its own citizens held a view very similar to the view held by some Americans today – of a divine mandate of sorts).

Communism is as we know a failed system. In a sense we can say it was a primitive and not well thought out reaction to the problem of labor exploitation, which made the fatal mistake of ignoring human nature (and the desire of every person to have a sense of accomplishment and a unique identity).

Today we know the invisible hand of Adam Smith works, and it is a superior system. It’s sort of comparable to the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum physics. Physicists like Born figured out that future events were not necessarily determined by past events. In short, the deterministic view of nature physicists took for granted up to that point was no longer valid. The only thing that applied was chance. Einstein himself couldn’t wrap his mind around that idea. However, ultimately Einstein was proven wrong. The primitive reaction of communism to the problems presented by the industrial revolution are analogous. The ideas of an invisible hand, or chance and probability distributions aren’t intuitive to our minds. The idea of cause and effect is so deeply rooted – it’s no wonder that people believed centralized control over the economy would serve the average person better.

So with respect these sort of associations made by theists (communism/atheism) are not well thought out. They sound more like propaganda as opposed to conclusions gleaned by rigorous academic analysis.

You know who gave HARD support of Hitler? Al-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He was such a good supporter of Hitler he gave him two Bosnian Muslim divisions and he had Hitler’s ear in regards to the extermination of the Jews. AL Husseini partook in the slaughter of the Christian Armenians a couple of decades before WWII and knew that the world wouldn’t care if the Jews were exterminated too. Al-Husseini wanted to carry on his extermination into the Middle East after Hitler was done in Europe. He didn’t get his chance because Hitler lost the war.

Hitler and the mufti website.

And the 2nd most read book in Saudi Arabia right now is Mein Kampf. It was a bestseller in Turkey according to a 2005 report.

If you prefer to hear this from a left winger then John Rothmann co-wrote ‘Icons of Evil’.

 

[staffsgt7]

I’m aware of the problems you’re mentioning here (albeit many of these financing sources for terrorism have been shut down); but I’m sort of on the fence here. I’ve seen some compelling speeches by Christopher Hutchins (whose opinion I appreciate), who takes the same tact as you do (a pretty harsh stance against Islam).

My personal knee jerk reaction was expressed in my last post to you; I get concerned when I perceive bigotry against any group (and it particularly raises a red flag when I see atheists and Christians ganging up on another group). Nevertheless, it’s not to say we shouldn’t gang up on Islam. If the religion itself will always be a threat to freedom, and there’s really no way it can ever reconcile itself with the idea of religious tolerance and democracy … then we should put it in our cross-hairs.

I’m just not convinced Islam is incapable of joining the free and democratic world

The only thing we should be ganging up on is their attempts to whitewash Jihad, Sharia, the 6th Pillar of Islam,etc. Or to tell our kids fairy tales about Islamic history. We should be giving the MSA the boot, along with Saudi Arabia from exporting their Jihadists in the form of Imams and clerics. Whatever they call them. We should give Sheik Gilani the boot too and dismantling the compounds that are popping up around our country. I did not mention these before.

If the Muslims want to migrate here then so be it. They need to learn the separation of Church and State and if they want to pray during working hours then their work day will be extended. If they don’t want to touch pork, alcohol, or infidels then they should get another job and shut up. We are infidels and know what EID is all about which is a celebration of warriors after they killed the men and took the women and children as slaves, along with all their loot. It is not something to make a stamp about or to have anyone celebrate. If they want to starve and gorge then infidels will NOT partake in it and they will eat whatever they want. Eating pork is not a sin and if a Muslim doesn’t like it then so what. I don’t like their signs of subjugation such as their hijabb and burka and they tell me they don’t care if I like it or not.

No more segregation just because their men and boys do not know how to behave themselves. If they cannot behave then they should be banned from swimming, or partaking in sports. We stopped segregation and now Muslims want to bring it back. It is wrong and if Islam wants it then they can do it in their mosques, not in our public schools. No non-muslim kid will learn any more Koran, or myths of Islam. If our kids do that then their kids will start reciting the Bible and dressing and praying like a Buddhist, or whatever religion is dominant. I would say that dressing up like a Muslim should be kept to Halloween just like kids dress up like nuns on Halloween. No more Sharia finance since that is supporting Jihadists and also has a seditious goal of bringing down our government.

We should not go out and do anything to individual Muslims except to tell them to keep their religion at home. No one is bothering Muslims on the whole. They only bring out persecution when they are afraid after one of their Jihadists attack us and so they start their complaining. If you paid attention to the Arab Festival 2009 you would have noticed the violence was against the non-Muslims. And around that same time Muslims were throwing rocks at gays. It has been coming from their own the support from Jihadists. Here is something from the prayer day at DC.

We should be able to say ‘NO’!!! without fear of a backlash. They are in our country and if they want to live here then it is our laws NOT laws based on the Koran and Hadith.

 

[staffsgt7]

yankee doodle, I don’t think that many in Islam are not able to join the rest of the world. But they work hard at bringing the rest of the world down to their level.

I just watched a news program on a Christian network about how it has been the Christians helping the Muslims in countries like Indonesia that just had a catastrophe. It wasn’t the Muslims in even Muslim rich nations. There was no zakat that was collected directed at that country.

And in countries like Afghanistan it has been Christians helping Musilms with medical care. They said something like there were about 1 doctor for over 50,000.

They also mentioned that in Iraq the Christian population is dwindling. In a couple of years the persecution is so bad that it has gone from 1.5 million to about 1/2 million. But the secrecy might explain that we are not getting the correct numbers. They might be just appearing to be Muslim while secretly being Christian.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Dude, first I question your logic in relying on a Christian network for information about Islam. Nevertheless, the fact is many in the Islamic world are illiterate and they’ve never experienced anything like western democracy. When they do get a taste of it they like it.

How do I know? Only a few years ago most people wrote the idea of a democratic Iraq off as a pipe dream. Today Iraqi’s are protesting their governments (local and national) for better services, and even work force protections like we have in the west. They have a functional government, a police force and armed services that’s fairly reliable and well trained, and even a court system that is rising to meet global standards of integrity (notwithstanding some problems remain).

As long as we continue our support, the momentum in Iraq is toward broader democracy, respect for individual rights, peaceful coexistence with the rest of the world, and prosperity.

Why would you listen to the dark voices of hate and intolerance rather than the reasoned voices of hope?

While your watching Christian programming, a religion supposedly about peace and love, take a listen to guys like the Pastor John Hague (and his progeny), who dream of an apocalypse and war with the Islamic world. How are they any better than Islamofacists (except that they’re contained by a secular society where they can’t get away with doing the sort of things they would naturally do if they were unchecked).

Religion in whatever form feeds on fear, paranoia, superstition, and ignorance. They have to … because if their adherents actually gave real consideration to the facts, the game would be all over.

 

[staffsgt7]

yankee doodle, I don’t think that many in Islam are not able to join the rest of the world. But they work hard at bringing the rest of the world down to their level.

I just watched a news program on a Christian network about how it has been the Christians helping the Muslims in countries like Indonesia that just had a catastrophe. It wasn’t the Muslims in even Muslim rich nations. There was no zakat that was collected directed at that country.

And in countries like Afghanistan it has been Christians helping Musilms with medical care. They said something like there were about 1 doctor for over 50,000.

They also mentioned that in Iraq the Christian population is dwindling. In a couple of years the persecution is so bad that it has gone from 1.5 million to about 1/2 million. But the secrecy might explain that we are not getting the correct numbers. They might be just appearing to be Muslim while secretly being Christian.

I wrote that first sentence wrong. I agree with you. I don’t think that many in Islam will be able to join the rest of the world.

 

[staffsgt7]

Dude, first I question your logic in relying on a Christian network for information about Islam. Nevertheless, the fact is many in the Islamic world are illiterate and they’ve never experienced anything like western democracy. When they do get a taste of it they like it.

How do I know? Only a few years ago most people wrote the idea of a democratic Iraq off as a pipe dream. Today Iraqi’s are protesting their governments (local and national) for better services, and even work force protections like we have in the west. They have a functional government, a police force and armed services that’s fairly reliable and well trained, and even a court system that is rising to meet global standards of integrity (notwithstanding some problems remain).

As long as we continue our support, the momentum in Iraq is toward broader democracy, respect for individual rights, peaceful coexistence with the rest of the world, and prosperity.

Why would you listen to the dark voices of hate and intolerance rather than the reasoned voices of hope?

While your watching Christian programming, a religion supposedly about peace and love, take a listen to guys like the Pastor John Hague (and his progeny), who dream of an apocalypse and war with the Islamic world. How are they any better than Islamofacists (except that they’re contained by a secular society where they can’t get away with doing the sort of things they would naturally do if they were unchecked).

Religion in whatever form feeds on fear, paranoia, superstition, and ignorance. They have to … because if their adherents actually gave real consideration to the facts, the game would be all over.

So, I watch a 1/2 hour show and you accuse me of that being my source for Islam?

I have read the Koran, Islamic history and delved into subjects as their current politics. I have read numerous books on the subject and from one post you think I get all my information from one half hour show. I also read what is happening in Europe and some of what is happening in Africa and Southeast Asia.

I am preparing to be a witness concerning the Muslim Brotherhood in our country and will work on kicking the MSA out of our schools. That is only a start because Sharia finance is also starting to look good to some financial institutions and that cannot happen. They finance Jihad and the overthrow of our government, to state is simply.

The ‘reasoned voices of hope’ does not come from the Muslim world. I write Iraq off as a Pipe dream but have never stated that in this forum. I write it off because they allowed Sharia laws to override any of the other laws they have in place. Right there should tell you that Iraq will go back to its quagmire.

They like it and then we see so many Muslims in our own Western countries supporting such junk as Sharia laws. Some are reverts to Islam and they support Sharia laws. Sharia laws are the most barbaric laws, backwards and violent towards non-Muslims, slaves that are ok under Sharia laws, and their muslim women.

Do you remember the tsunami that devastated so many countries a few years back? Well, most of those countries were mostly Islamic and until the world noticed that no rich Muslim oil nation was giving any charity the Saudis FINALLY gave a mere $5million while dumping millions into our country on their stealth Jihad and billions in training their Jihadists in such countries as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc.

All that has to happen in Iraq is for Saudi to send its Wahabbists, to dump some money into the pockets of their politicians, move some Jihadists into Iraq and it will become a cesspool again. And there will be less resistence once we leave.

I don’t totally disagree with you about religion. In Islam you have religion and politics all mixed up together. I don’t see such a problem with Christianity on a whole. Mostly some of the more fundamental sects of Christianity are messed up, but I don’t see them waging violent jihad against others just because they are not Christians. I do hear that the media blames them for things that they have not done. Most of the time if one really does a background check of the bad people they are not religious at all, or in the case of Islam they are VERY religious. Now cult leaders take the Bible, like Mohammed did, and distort it to mean whatever they want it to mean. And cult leaders do more of the smarmy types of crimes like pediphilia, polygamy, brainwashing, etc which is similar to what Islam does.

 

[yankee_doodle]

I wrote that first sentence wrong. I agree with you. I don’t think that many in Islam will be able to join the rest of the world.

actually I misread it (I don’t even think it was your fault) … but still these Christian efforts usually come with the caveat of evangelicalism (although these days they’re too savvy to overtly exploit a situation like that to evangelize). It’s not that I’m completely cynical … I do acknowledge Christians do some good things, but so does the United Way and the various other secular charities out there.

Our military intervention in Iraq probably did more to spread the idea of democracy in the middle east than any nonsecular effort to date. The fact is religious intervention will naturally be viewed as a threat to Islam, whereas state intervention will not carry the same connotations, particularly where the state is viewed as a neutral entity (that is neither hostile to religion or prefers any particular brand of religion).

My thoughts on this topic are mostly political (and therefore I think outside the range of what’s appropriate to discuss here on CAF), but my point is simply that you can’t approach this problem with a religious preference, rather there are certain ideals that must be consistently supported (i.e. human rights, individual freedom, religious tolerance, etc.).

We need to partner with people who uphold those ideals, whether they’re religious or not. Moreover, you can’t seek validation for religion based on world events that have no nexus with the supernatural claims made by each respective religion. When religion is examined solely on its merits … its claims fall apart.

 

[staffsgt7]

Our posts are starting to get mixed up. I am going to pause for now and logoff for the day.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Our posts are starting to get mixed up. I am going to pause for now and logoff for the day.

I think I wrongly assumed you were an American (apologies for the confusion). I didn’t realize the place you were approaching this problem from.

 

[Benadam]

I’m just not convinced Islam is incapable of joining the free and democratic world

This is the reason imo that we are seeing this extreme reaction. There was a time that the Arab identity was highly esteemed for it’s philosophers and sages. They feel their inadequacies more bbe cause of that now The extremists mostly suffer this collective self esteem issue as the global world crystalizes. The thing they feel is the powerlessness to stop the inevitable death of a culture that has little to contribute to a world that is sweeping over their land and corralling them like cattle. We see a culture that that stuggles to breath and is grabbing onto the most powerfull tools of survival their founders may or may not have concieved.:twocents:

 

[yankee_doodle]

This is the reason imo that we are seeing this extreme reaction. There was a time that the Arab identity was highly esteemed for it’s philosophers and sages. They feel their inadequacies more bbe cause of that now The extremists mostly suffer this collective self esteem issue as the global world crystalizes. The thing they feel is the powerlessness to stop the inevitable death of a culture that has little to contribute to a world that is sweeping over their land and corralling them like cattle. We see a culture that that stuggles to breath and is grabbing onto the most powerfull tools of survival their founders may or may not have concieved.:twocents:

I don’t see it that way. I think the good parts of Muslim culture along with their religion can do just fine – albeit religion in general will be facing exceeding problems in the future (people are getting smarter and smarter, and these days it’s difficult to convince well informed people to believe in religious myths).

 

[Benadam]

I don’t see it that way. I think the good parts of Muslim culture along with their religion can do just fine – albeit religion in general will be facing exceeding problems in the future (people are getting smarter and smarter, and these days it’s difficult to convince well informed people to believe in religious myths).

I agree. I didn’t articulate well that I meant. I meant to say the extremists are the culture lashing out. The modernists are applying their faith to the real world.

 

[josie_L]

So, I watch a 1/2 hour show and you accuse me of that being my source for Islam?

I have read the Koran, Islamic history and delved into subjects as their current politics. I have read numerous books on the subject and from one post you think I get all my information from one half hour show. I also read what is happening in Europe and some of what is happening in Africa and Southeast Asia.

I am preparing to be a witness concerning the Muslim Brotherhood in our country and will work on kicking the MSA out of our schools. That is only a start because Sharia finance is also starting to look good to some financial institutions and that cannot happen. They finance Jihad and the overthrow of our government, to state is simply.

The ‘reasoned voices of hope’ does not come from the Muslim world. I write Iraq off as a Pipe dream but have never stated that in this forum. I write it off because they allowed Sharia laws to override any of the other laws they have in place. Right there should tell you that Iraq will go back to its quagmire.

They like it and then we see so many Muslims in our own Western countries supporting such junk as Sharia laws. Some are reverts to Islam and they support Sharia laws. Sharia laws are the most barbaric laws, backwards and violent towards non-Muslims, slaves that are ok under Sharia laws, and their muslim women.

Do you remember the tsunami that devastated so many countries a few years back? Well, most of those countries were mostly Islamic and until the world noticed that no rich Muslim oil nation was giving any charity the Saudis FINALLY gave a mere $5million while dumping millions into our country on their stealth Jihad and billions in training their Jihadists in such countries as Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc.

All that has to happen in Iraq is for Saudi to send its Wahabbists, to dump some money into the pockets of their politicians, move some Jihadists into Iraq and it will become a cesspool again. And there will be less resistence once we leave.

I don’t totally disagree with you about religion. In Islam you have religion and politics all mixed up together. I don’t see such a problem with Christianity on a whole. Mostly some of the more fundamental sects of Christianity are messed up, but I don’t see them waging violent jihad against others just because they are not Christians. I do hear that the media blames them for things that they have not done. Most of the time if one really does a background check of the bad people they are not religious at all, or in the case of Islam they are VERY religious. Now cult leaders take the Bible, like Mohammed did, and distort it to mean whatever they want it to mean. And cult leaders do more of the smarmy types of crimes like pediphilia, polygamy, brainwashing, etc which is similar to what Islam does.

Have you ever read any books from Oriana Fallaci? I have, and although she is a wee bit insulting with her language with regard to Islam, she is honest.

 

[planten]

The violence of the Muslims can be traced to ignorance of their good side of religion. It becomes worse when they start exporting that violence to western peaceful countries. Some Muslims feel they need to equal some score against the western governments.

But it is clear that their violence is unjustified. While living in a western country, they should live as very peaceful citizen. There should be unconditional attitude of peace from them in USA, UK and France etc.

There are people of other religions living in those countries. There are hindus, Budhists, Jews and christians there. They are having their schools and finance institutions. If other religions do not have any problem then why the Muslims should have any problem. They should live like other people there and enjoy life. But this can only be done by absolute faithfulness in the rule of law (constitution) of that country.

I noted that some Muslims intend to have their own religious laws (Sharia) in those countries. They can apply to the authorities for special permission to have their personal laws. If allowed, they can use it for their own people only, not for any one else. If it is not allowed due to any reason, they can forget it and be happy as they are.

They cannot raise any objection or disturbance about anything while living in those countries. Their salvation lies in trying to overtake the other nations in good works, peacefulness, education and high morale. There should be no anti-state or anti-people activity even in the minds of the Muslims. It should be Love for All, hatred for None.