Why are taxes so high?

[Al_Masetti]

Here’s the text of the radio commercial; not sure how it will paste.

Here goes:

Listen to the latest Taxpayer Minute radio spot to hear the history of taxation in New Jersey. It is not a pretty story. In 1966, we had the 3rd highest property taxes in the country, but NO sales or income taxes. Those days sure look good now.

Then Trenton told us a temporary 3% sales tax would cut property taxes. In 1971, that temporary sales tax became a permanent 5% sales tax! Now, at 7%, the sales tax is the highest in the nation and there has been no property tax relief.

In 1976, Trenton told us that a new 2.5% income tax would cut property taxes. (Notice a pattern here?). That income has steadily risen to the current 9% and property taxes are as high as ever.

Listen to all the Taxpayer Minute radio spots.

taxpayerminute.com/listen.htm

 

[BamaRider]

Dang Al M what a mess up there. You tellin me the ENTIRE state of NJ is run like the cities of Newark and Camden?

Do the regular folks up there have a plan to take the state back, or did they just give up and leave? Or the regualr folks in the minority now?

 

[goofyjim]

Here is one very pragmatic way to reduce taxes.

Eliminate ALL withholding.

Everyone get their full gross pay. Including the 7% that the “employer pays” for that half of Social Security. No deductions or withholding of any kind.

No income tax forms either. No refund checks on the overpayments people make during the year.

And once a month each government agency sends a bill to each person for the “services” they provide. Social Security, Income tax for the Federal Govt, Income tax for the state governments. etc etc etc. Also you’d get bills for the disability and unemployment. Just like you get electric bills and gas bills and credit card bills.

And you buy your own medical insurance, just like you buy your own car insurance.

Boy, you want to see a “taxpayer revolt”!

One of the major economists said he was the person who suggested use of the paycheck withholding during WW2. Said it was the biggest mistake he ever made.

Do a Google search for “tax withholding milton friedman”

Lots of interesting hits. Including this one.

cato.org/pubs/journal/cj14n3-1.html

and also here:

mises.org/story/1797

By the way, Mises [and also Hazlett ]are two excellent names to research.

And how do the unemployed disabled people pay these bills? They can’t. So this system wouldn’t work.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

And how do the unemployed disabled people pay these bills? They can’t. So this system wouldn’t work.

Jim
It really does not matter. I understand your question however there is a fundamental underlying problem. Maybe it would help to consider a government employee on duty buying gas from a common gas station. The gas is taxed by the government whom is purchasing the gas so how much tax revenue is raised by the purchase? Zero, as the government is paying itself no change has occurred. The same issue applies to all non working members of society. Any tax paid by a non working member of society has a net effect of zero. However when a person works their tax is actual part of their work being diverted to another cause, so their tax is real. When these taxes are small the tax money is used wisely however if the taxes are large there is a lack of wise choices and thus you see the issues posted above. Today many small businessman claim tax cheating is built in to current prices, thus reducing or eliminating honest citizens from the suppliers market!!!

 

[Al_Masetti]

Dang Al M what a mess up there. You tellin me the ENTIRE state of NJ is run like the cities of Newark and Camden?

Do the regular folks up there have a plan to take the state back, or did they just give up and leave? Or the regualr folks in the minority now?

Ummmm… no, … but only because I can’t speak for 100% of the State’s population and municipalities.

I would say that regular folks are in the minority.

And yes, folks basically just give up and leave.

A fellow, politically conservative, named Bret Schundler did really well for a while in Jersey City, but was defeated for governor. The past decade or so, whenever a conservative or a Republican comes close to winning, the Democrats break the law and the courts allow them to get away with it and thereby win. The victory of Senator Lautenberg is a case in point; the actual Democrat candidate had to resign from the election (for corruption issues) when it was too late to legally get another candidate, but the Democrats picked Laugenberg anyway as the candidate and he won.

Steve Lonigan is fighting back. Or trying to.

The Congressional district I’m in has a Conservative [pro-life, etc.] Republican Congressman [Scott Garrett], but he’s very lonely, like the Maytag repairman.

 

[Al_Masetti]

And how do the unemployed disabled people pay these bills? They can’t. So this system wouldn’t work.

There are a large variety of charities including Catholic Community Services and Catholic Charities [and a lot of non-Catholic and secular charities] and a lot of doctors will treat people without charge. There always have been.

In addition, there are private Catholic charitable and philanthropic groups that assist people in need at both the parish and diocesan levels. St. Vincent de Paul, for example. Our parish alone has somewhere around 50 groups that provide a variety of assistances. [We actually counted them because a new pastor asked how many there were.] And there are other groups that provide assistance without needing to be counted.

These helping groups and individuals have always been there.

 

[goofyjim]

Jim
It really does not matter. I understand your question however there is a fundamental underlying problem. Maybe it would help to consider a government employee on duty buying gas from a common gas station. The gas is taxed by the government whom is purchasing the gas so how much tax revenue is raised by the purchase? Zero, as the government is paying itself no change has occurred. The same issue applies to all non working members of society. Any tax paid by a non working member of society has a net effect of zero. However when a person works their tax is actual part of their work being diverted to another cause, so their tax is real. When these taxes are small the tax money is used wisely however if the taxes are large there is a lack of wise choices and thus you see the issues posted above. Today many small businessman claim tax cheating is built in to current prices, thus reducing or eliminating honest citizens from the suppliers market!!!

Then by all means do away with taxes so we can have no way to pay for this stupid war. And the president and congress will have to be volunteers instead of getting their exorbitant salaries and pay raises. I could go on and on.

 

[Ryan29]

Taxes being high in America at this point in time clearly is to fund the foreign policy run amok. Five years in Iraq and our Christian brothers and sisters are fighting a fruitless war and what do the people at home have show for their loss? High taxes, oil prices skyhigh, and homeland insecurity. While our boys and girls are being killed and the Al Qaeda’s second in command issues tapes from a cave with a library behind him out of Afghanistan or Pakistan. If this government brought the troops back home and put the money in domestic issues taxes would decrease, but then again I’m also a Paleoconservative, but that is my view anyways.

 

[bobzills]

There are a large variety of charities including Catholic Community Services and Catholic Charities [and a lot of non-Catholic and secular charities] and a lot of doctors will treat people without charge. .

It is nice that this is true in your area. Unfortunately it is not true in our area. For example, a friend of mine is studying to be a doctor. He has been assigned to work as an intern of some sort on the night shift at the emergency room in the local hospital. He said that someone came in recently with a severe life thereatening injury on his wrist and right arm . Apparently it was a suicide attempt, but it was not clear. Anyway it required some sort of surgery or sewing up. There was a lot of blood. The doctor asked the dying patient if he had insurance. The dying patient said not. The doctor then asked the dying man if he had the money to pay for the operation. The man said that he could write out a check for the amount. The doctor then said that would be OK, but since it was now 3:00 AM, he would take the check to the bank in the morning, (or have his secretary take it) and after it had been cleared and he had the cash in hand, he would then be able to perfom the necessary operation.

 

[Al_Masetti]

What is your geographic area?

There are tons of Catholic or other non-profit programs (both religious and secular) all over the place. Many do not seek publicity and/or do not receive publicity.

It is nice that this is true in your area. Unfortunately it is not true in our area. For example, a friend of mine is studying to be a doctor. He has been assigned to work as an intern of some sort on the night shift at the emergency room in the local hospital. He said that someone came in recently with a severe life thereatening injury on his wrist and right arm . Apparently it was a suicide attempt, but it was not clear. Anyway it required some sort of surgery or sewing up. There was a lot of blood. The doctor asked the dying patient if he had insurance. The dying patient said not. The doctor then asked the dying man if he had the money to pay for the operation. The man said that he could write out a check for the amount. The doctor then said that would be OK, but since it was now 3:00 AM, he would take the check to the bank in the morning, (or have his secretary take it) and after it had been cleared and he had the cash in hand, he would then be able to perfom the necessary operation.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

It is nice that this is true in your area. Unfortunately it is not true in our area. For example, a friend of mine is studying to be a doctor. He has been assigned to work as an intern of some sort on the night shift at the emergency room in the local hospital. He said that someone came in recently with a severe life thereatening injury on his wrist and right arm . Apparently it was a suicide attempt, but it was not clear. Anyway it required some sort of surgery or sewing up. There was a lot of blood. The doctor asked the dying patient if he had insurance. The dying patient said not. The doctor then asked the dying man if he had the money to pay for the operation. The man said that he could write out a check for the amount. The doctor then said that would be OK, but since it was now 3:00 AM, he would take the check to the bank in the morning, (or have his secretary take it) and after it had been cleared and he had the cash in hand, he would then be able to perfom the necessary operation.

Sounds like a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Lord, have mercy, what are we coming to? Money has become the god of the United States!

 

[Al_Masetti]

Sounds like a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Lord, have mercy, what are we coming to? Money has become the god of the United States!

No … that’s totally normal for a bureaucracy … a typical bureaucracy in action.

“We have procedures” … is the standard expression.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Directly relevant to the original question: “why are taxes so high?”

I was watching BookTV and they had Grover Norquist on.

Very relevant to this discussion.

You can see his discussion on www.booktv.org and also by visiting www.atr.org

I just ordered his book from Amazon.

“Leave Us Alone”

Fabulous discussion.

Check out his web site and the BookTV discussion.

And in addition:

There are two aspects to the taxation issue: one is the money that goes to the government taking a large chunk from the budget. The other aspect is the horrendous amount of paperwork … totally unproductive in terms of the time and energy that gets absorbed filling out tax forms, gathering data that serves no useful management purpose.

I’ve been reading Boortz & Linder’s book, "Fair Tax … "

amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

… in which ALL Federal income and payroll taxes would be replaced by a retail sales tax. This is different from a VAT. The issue of taxing poor people would be resolved by everyone getting a “prebate”.

amazon.com/FairTax-Book-N…/dp/0060875410

amazon.com/gp/product/006… IN=0061540463

After a lot of consideration, it would appear the only opposition would be from the legion of bureaucrats and lobbyists.

johnlinder.com/

fairtax.org/site/PageServer

boortz.com/

 

[cynic]

I think your opinions could be summed up as economic libertarianism.

 

[bobzills]

…ALL Federal income and payroll taxes would be replaced by a retail sales tax.

I like this idea. You mean we don;t have to fill out an income tax form every year? Who gets all the tax loopholes anyway, except for the rich who can afford tax lawyers to advise people on all these tax avoidance schemes. It just seems fairer to have a national sales tax that everyone will have to pay into whenever they buy anything.

 

[goofyjim]

I like this idea. You mean we don;t have to fill out an income tax form every year? Who gets all the tax loopholes anyway, except for the rich who can afford tax lawyers to advise people on all these tax avoidance schemes. It just seems fairer to have a national sales tax that everyone will have to pay into whenever they buy anything.

Now what have I been suggesting? This would avoid all disputes about income tax being harder on the rich or the poor.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I think your opinions could be summed up as economic libertarianism.

Not sure what that means. I generally avoid labels. Could you explain “economic libertarianism”?

 

[Al_Masetti]

I like this idea. You mean we don;t have to fill out an income tax form every year? Who gets all the tax loopholes anyway, except for the rich who can afford tax lawyers to advise people on all these tax avoidance schemes. It just seems fairer to have a national sales tax that everyone will have to pay into whenever they buy anything.

It’s amazingly interesting. No more IRS. No tax forms for anyone … not for corporations, not for individuals. No estate tax.

Boortz and Linder have appeared many times to give talks. I’ve seen one or both on www.booktv.org at least twice. Check it out.

www.booktv.org and scroll down on the batch of featured videos.

It’s also good for industry as it would encourage companies to reduce outsourcing production overseas.

Apparently our corporate tax is the second highest in the world. The typical corporate tax is around 20% but in the U.S. it’s up around 40%. And there are 65000 pages of tax rules that nobody understands including the IRS.

Read IRS Publication 590 about Individual Retirement Arrangements. The IRA program started with only two pages; the new publication is over 100 pages; total incomprehensiblity.

Read up on the Fair Tax.

Linder introduces it each year in the House of Representatives. This year it’s H.R. 25.

 

[Al_Masetti]

booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9156&SectionName=Politics&PlayMedia=No

I played with the booktv.org web site and got a direct link to the Fair Tax presentation.

The whole idea is to introduce transparency.

In other words, government can grow big (and has grown big) by using hidden taxes. However, if government funding is transparent then we will know exactly how much they are taking from us.

So, the Fair Tax replaces all of the income taxes, the payroll Social Security tax, the inheritance taxes, all the forms, all 65000 pages of the Tax Code … eliminates them … and installs one single retail sales tax (not a hidden VAT). And compensates the poor … every person gets a monthly “prebate”. Simple.

Arguably, the U.S Tax Code is the most onerous on the planet and penalizes everyone, rich (who generate the jobs) and the poor (who fill the jobs), alike.

Today is April 15th, income tax filing day in the United States.

Some cynical people (perhaps realistic people) have suggested that April 15th was chosen as income tax filing day because it is as far away from the voting day as humanly possible. That way voters won’t remember the pain of having to fill out all those tax forms. And dealing with all of the ambiguities and poorly written instructions.

Can you imagine … if the tax forms had to be filed on November 4th … voting day. You show up at the polling place, give them your tax forms, and then vote.

Another reason why taxes are so high is because of withholding.

Withholding was introduced to finance World War 2. It should have been eliminated when the war ended in 1945. But instead … because withholding made taxes appear to be “painless”, it was retained.

And now, the taxation system has degenerated to the point that we now “feel” that if we get a refund, the government is giving us money. In fact, it means we got so totally ripped off by the government during the year, that they had to give us back some small portion of our tax money.

So, check out the Fair Tax presentation. And the Boortz and Linder Web sites.

and also www.atr.org where they discuss transparency.

Grover Norquist also made a BookTV presentation on that issue and wrote a book on it.

Here is Norquist’s presentation on his book: “Leave Us Alone”

booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9289&SectionName=Politics&PlayMedia=No

 

[stinkcat_14]

Apparently our corporate tax is the second highest in the world. The typical corporate tax is around 20% but in the U.S. it’s up around 40%.

While most countries have lower corporate income tax rates, they also typically have value added taxes, which are basically a national sales tax. For example, Ireland has a 12.5% corporate income tax, but a 21% VAT.

How much better is that than a 35% corporate income tax and no VAT?