Why are the New Age movement and other exotic ideas so attractive?

[tqualey]

Hi, CMatt25,

I do not know about you indulging PRmerger … but, I do not recall you ‘indulging’ me. This is a discussion and not putting material out there for others to contemplate and discuss is really self-defeating. So, here goes…

What kind of objective standard do you use as a measurement for the validity of what you believe?

I do not know the answer you will provide - so, this is valid material for me.

Let me answer my own question so you can see what it is that I believe. I started out believing Scripture - the Genesis account of God’s creation, man’s disobedience and promise of a Redeemer - all the way to John baptizing in the Jordan River and pointing to Christ as the Lamb of God. But, then I had to go back and say to myself, ‘Self, how do you know this is true?’ and went in search of how we actually got the Scriptures. Since I believe God is all powerful - and is able to work through sinful men to bring His Will to Fulfillment - I found the Catholic Church, which is, “… pillar and bulward of Truth…” (1Tim 3:15) and not the Scripture.

Combine this with the fact that the 30,000+ groups, assemblies, tabernacles, communions, tempels and what-have-you can not agree on even the basics - do manage to agree on one item: the Catholic Church is wrong - this tells me something… and, it is not that all of these other guys are right!

This is the criteria I use. I am interested in listening to your point of view.

God bless

PR, I’ve indulged you plenty on the forum already with my answer to your same question on other threads. Speaking to you about faith, conscience, belief, prayer, study, sincere attempts to discern. And yet about how you can believe I’m wrong. And both of us can believe Phelps is wrong. And Phelps might say both of us are wrong.

But after repeatedly answering, you said you do not understand. And at one point I can only guess because you do not understand me, you even accused me of allowing injustice towards homosexuals and other races because I disagree with Fred but in the end, short of doing something like plucking his eyes out, I saw no way of forcing him to change his beliefs to mine. Nor to yours. I said I could tell him I disagree just as you tell me you do not agree with me. But in the end I have to agree to disagree with Fred Phelps and that made you mad you said.

So why would I indulge you again with the same answers here? Just so you can say you still do not understand and continue to call my criterion vague and nebulous, and so forth. We go in circles and at some point I just sometimes have to say folks just might not understand another in matters of faith. And that’s just the reality of faith and belief to me.

And it’s past my bedtime as it is so I am heading there now. Have a good night. And peace and understanding. I trust we shall meet again on another thread. God bless.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Hi again Christine. My religion is full of rules, albeit for different reasons I suppose. Tell me of you would why you would see Hinduism as a hopeless religion. I an honestly fascinated that you would think that, so could you tell me why?

Your friend
Sufjon

why, because there is no salvation!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Because the multi-tentacled beast of the “new age” massages the hedonistic ego of our modern society.

You deserve better; you are entitled; it is your right; you are better than; they’re wrong-you’re right; it goes on and on.

No one (save a small few) is interested in the “Good News” or “The Sound Doctrine”.

The world, the flesh and the devil have desensitized us to the point of accepting doctrines of demons.

We look for the exotic; the strange; the new’; the exclusive; the trendy; instant gratification. No one wants to pray the Rosary or go to Confession or go to Mass. No interest in a life of prayer and a life of the spirit - nutured by the Sacraments.

This is a huge subject and at the center of the New Age movement is Lucifer.

Amen, brother, Amen!

 

[mangy_dog]

Hi, Mangy Dog,

I would say this is really a great summary!

The history of God’s interaction with humans - as recorded in the Bible - has a long and amazingly consistent approach that unfolds to even the causual reader: we can not stay focused on God!

Now, staying focused on a fertility god and goddess, sacrificing babies (and today it is unborn babies) and worshipping Mammon who looks remarkably like George Washington is what we are doing today. Some want to criticize this - and worship Nature, Mother Earth and go out and find a tree to hug as a demonstration of oneness with everything! Ah, and then there are those who desire the Eastern flavor of distraction… to ‘curry’ favor wih their gods, various systems of navel gazing and the loss of self in something else.

It really is just too big a thought: the Creator of the entire Universe - loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to earth to die for our sins. All are redeemed through the Blood of Jesus Christ. But, some will reject this tremendous love - and find Lucifer more than willing to provide earthly distractions for an eternity of his pleasures in tormenting us for foolishly following him

God bless

You are so right.

It is sad but, my job is to pray. Pray everyday and at every moment of the day. My job is to have a life of prayer and a life of the spirit as opposed to a life of the body and a natural existence - absent from the supernatural gift of God’s grace.

It’s sad…and so, I’m going to the hospital chapel to pray.

God bless you Tom.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I agree Tom but I’m having a serious problem still with Fatima.

Relativism I have heard used in many ways with the Catholic Church today also . Without a doubt by all the followers of the Blue Army.

Now I have listened to some interesting debates by them, with Rabbi Scholars included who also felt the same. The message of Fatima provides a serious stumbling block for the church elect.

There’s no proof of a consecration of Russia ever occured as instructed? How do you explain it? I have Pope John Paul IIs 84 words right here in front of me. In other words they did the best they could do?

“Enlighten the peoples of which you await our consecration and confiding” March 25th 1984 were his words to the Immaculate Heart of Mary at Fatima.

Never has Russia been named in a consecration by the Pope with all the Bishops included. Never happened.

Is the church consigned to weakness, impotent, unwilling to wage War according to Gods Will? I suppose many just don’t believe? But look at the mess we are in.

To me its a demonic presence which will continue until the consecration is done. And it will be done correctly. And as a result the problem we are encountering in the USA with Protestant denominations, The EO and the moritorium in Russia? All pretty predictable. Islam has become a puppet for Communism. Look how Communism effected Red China? They are luring the US into a grave mistake believeing capitalism will prevail in Russia.

War to the hilt between communism and capitalism is enevitable. Today of course Russia is not stroing enough. But they are much stronger than 15 years ago. What another 5-10 years max?

To win we shall need the element of surprize the Western World will have to be put to sleep.

So we shall begin by launching the most spectacular peace movement on record. Their will be electrifying overtures and unheard of concessions. The capitalist countries stupid and decadent will rejoice to cooperate in their own destruction. And leap and another chance to be friends.

As soon as their guard is down will will smash them with clenched fists.

Dimitri Manuilsky, Professor at the Lenin School of Political Warfare, Moscow,

Or the books written by KGB defector Antolliy Galitsyn “New Lies for the Old” or “The Perestroika Decpetion”

Rated at 95% correct with re-structuring of the West to think Russsia is collasping, with one world rule of communism?

600,000, Catholic in Russia not one extra since 1917. But lets not upset the Patriarch of Russia? Thats ecumenism? before ecumenism works we’ll be in WW-III, we missed it in 95 with Russia by 10-minutes. With the US missle launched over Russia. Within two-minutes all the 1000’s of cold war Nuclear Warheads were re-directed back at the USA. Within in 10-minutes the choice to not fire them was made. But yet look at the Israel/Iran situation?

Personally thats my problem with the CC today. I don’t think, I know we live inbetween two Supernatural worlds. And with complete humility and dependence on God, nothing else will work.

The Bible is full of Prophets starting with Elias who God has constantly sent when man has started to fall off track.

Fatima’s miracle was a defiance of the laws of nature, nobody but God can do that.

Oh well another conversation for another day I suppose. I believe the Blue Army has some very valid points though. They are certainly on the ball. And of course theres a right and wrong way to go about doing things. And their appeals to the Pope and Church are all done correctly.

 

[CMatt25]

You disappoint, brother. :sad_yes:

Oh well. I’ve done my best to explain in our many previous discourses on threads. So not much I can do about it PR if my best has not been good enough for you and if you haven’t understood what I was saying. God bless you always in your faith and peace be with you always.

 

[CMatt25]

Hi, CMatt25,

I do not know about you indulging PRmerger … but, I do not recall you ‘indulging’ me. This is a discussion and not putting material out there for others to contemplate and discuss is really self-defeating. So, here goes…

What kind of objective standard do you use as a measurement for the validity of what you believe?

I do not know the answer you will provide - so, this is valid material for me.

Let me answer my own question so you can see what it is that I believe. I started out believing Scripture - the Genesis account of God’s creation, man’s disobedience and promise of a Redeemer - all the way to John baptizing in the Jordan River and pointing to Christ as the Lamb of God. But, then I had to go back and say to myself, ‘Self, how do you know this is true?’ and went in search of how we actually got the Scriptures. Since I believe God is all powerful - and is able to work through sinful men to bring His Will to Fulfillment - I found the Catholic Church, which is, “… pillar and bulward of Truth…” (1Tim 3:15) and not the Scripture.

Combine this with the fact that the 30,000+ groups, assemblies, tabernacles, communions, tempels and what-have-you can not agree on even the basics - do manage to agree on one item: the Catholic Church is wrong - this tells me something… and, it is not that all of these other guys are right!

This is the criteria I use. I am interested in listening to your point of view.

God bless

Hi Tom, we specifically discussed our beliefs of confession a bit as I recall on my Protestants 1500 yrs thread. But rather than repeating myself in the details of how I look at and arrive at faith and belief and taking up further space on this thread, if its ok with you, you can get quite a bit of my indulging of PR in detail on the “Can people choose to be spiritual and live a loving life” thread. And I truly do hope that will help in you understanding my POV as to where I am currently at along on my lifelong faith journey.

Let me just say though I agree it all starts with faith. This does not mean there is relative truth and not one truth. It merely means I am being honest with myself in my understanding the difference between faith and belief and proof. Yes PR too likes to point out from where I get the story compiled from. But I’m thinking our all powerful God can use His body of believers at any given time for the purpose of His choosing. So He chose a church at the time centuries later to do this. That does not mean He might not need to do something else at later times to assure the gates will not be prevailing in the end. That’s His call and the best we can do is try to listen to His Spirit along the way in faith. And trust in Him to know our heart.

God bless you Tom always too! And United in Him Whom is far greater than any differences we might have, let us all, you, me, PRMerger, Catholics, Protestants, other non Catholics, :grouphug: Peace!

 

[PRmerger]

And I truly do hope that will help in you understanding my POV as to where I am currently at along on my lifelong faith journey.

It is understood.

What has been pointed out is that it is
-inconsistent
-uses only the Self as the arbiter of truth, for that which agrees with the Self is that which you affirm; that which disagrees with your own “faith” you proclaim, “God really didn’t say that. And I know because of the feeling I have from praying.”

 

[PRmerger]

Yes PR too likes to point out from where I get the story compiled from. But I’m thinking our all powerful God can use His body of believers at any given time for the purpose of His choosing. So He chose a church at the time centuries later to do this.

Right. But in your paradigm there is no way to discern when the Church got it right (as in not including the Gospel of Thomas) or got it wrong (as in proclaiming that divorce and re-marriage is wrong),*** except for your own opinion. ***

It is creating a god in one’s own image and likeness, rather than conforming one’s image and likeness to God’s.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thats right my sister.

Matt you know we all struggle with this Cross as was my intention to explain to you above about fatima.

But I don’t drag souls from God, I bring then to Him. I take my personal quest directly to the Popes mailing address. And he’ll tell you if he was here, he is familiar with my stance.

The point is with Apostolic Sucession, Peter and Paul, the Scripture verse, its all laid out abundantly clear for us. While we may disagreee on points of contention in the mystical realm “today” Biblically speaking we are on the same page.

I understand people having a different thought process, a different point of view, a different opinion.

But we must always look at ourselves “first” and ask, “is it me, am I not understanding”. Am I being influenced by false teaching, am I in denial?

All this is prevalent in our society. Surely you must admitt, Jesus Chirst stated one church through his Apostles. While that chuch may not be identicle to 2000 years ago. It is the same church.

How has it become possible that the list PR posted above has become so easily acceptable today? But through false teaching?

You know what I find most disturbing, with the idea of Free-Will and you own God given choice to do as you please, regardless if it goes against the will of God. When your thinking become infectious amoug others then this is a Grave Sin. Christ speaks on it in scripture. “Woe to those who cause my followers to sin”.

If you can’t help them then don’t hurt them. thats the hard fast rule.

Notspeaking diectly to you, but how is telling someone they don’t need Baptism to find Salvation from God. That the Body and Blood of Christ is merely symbolic?

Some on the thinking we encounter here is such an abomination and so heretical, it keeps many of coming back from just the dwelling thoughts of it in our minds.

I find it facinating that you could so convinced in your own thinking of Sola Scriptura, to make a argument thats “well we agree to disagree”? Its imposssible you can be 100% conivinced of your position in face of all thats been said on this thread. Impossible.

When we as Catholics constantly check doctrine, dogma, Scrpiture, and the ECF who immedately after John, Paul, Peter, Jame, etc. As we are constantly checking and double checking our own facts in “truth”.

Its one heck of a leap to go with Sola Scriptura and those such as Calvin or Luther. And thats not to say there has not been some great protestant thinkers. But still when stacked against the mountain of abundant evidence?

I don’t know, I see nothing good, I see the seven deadly sins. Pride and most important in this period Sloth. Especially when the sands of the Hour Glass are so close to empty.

And its not the point of judging anyone, its the point of seriously stepping back to process your own thinking. I believe theres a rush to judgement based on influence and learned bahavior.

I have nothing but Faith, Hope and Love for you, I hope you see through all the obstacles of this physical world and find Truth.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Sufjon]

why, because there is no salvation!

Not having salvation is is not a problem when you are not lost. What is empty about God actually having His act together? It’s actually kind of nice knowing that you are where you are supposed to be, and that there is a plan for you, rather than being where you are because a prototype of you made a mistake somewhere in prehistory. No ground to make up, no want, no fear. You just play out who you are, and you unfold as you are meant to. How could God have it any other way unless He makes mistakes, right?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Not having salvation is is not a problem when you are not lost. What is empty about God actually having His act together? It’s actually kind of nice knowing that you are where you are supposed to be, and** that there is a plan for you**, rather than being where you are because a prototype of you made a mistake somewhere in prehistory. No ground to make up, no want,** no fear.** You just play out who you are, and you unfold as you are meant to. How could God have it any other way unless He makes mistakes, right?

Your friend
Sufjon

I think you are quite misinformed about Christian teaching, Sufjon. Christianity proposes that God is indeed sovereign, and thus has “His act together”. In the above post, you seem to be proposing that the Christian God does not have “His act together”–is that your perception?

Also, Christianity does propose that God has a plan for us, His People, His Bride.

Additionally, do you know that the Christian message is “do not fear”? It is mentioned in our Sacred Scriptures quite often.

 

[Sufjon]

I think you are quite misinformed about Christian teaching, Sufjon. Christianity proposes that God is indeed sovereign, and thus has “His act together”. In the above post, you seem to be proposing that the Christian God does not have “His act together”–is that your perception?

Also, Christianity does propose that God has a plan for us, His People, His Bride.

Additionally, do you know that the Christian message is “do not fear”? It is mentioned in our Sacred Scriptures quite often.

Hi PRMerger: I think you missed the whole point in what I said. Anyway, as far as the Christian God not having His act together, I can only say that I am still not sure what to make of Him. It sounds like you are agreeing that He has a plan for us. Then you say that you need to be saved. If God has a plan for each of us and some of us go to hell, then He either planned for you to go to Hell, or He doesn’t make very good plans. We had this conversation before. Even if He gave you free will, He certainly knew the outcome for each of us if He had His act together. If He had His act together, then Satan was no accident either. The conclusion is that this is the huge chasm that Christianity would have to cross for me to bu into it. This contradiction in logic does not exist in my religion, hence I am having a very hard time understanding what you are saying. Could you address these points directly?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[CMatt25]

Hi PRMerger: I think you missed the whole point in what I said … We had this conversation before.
Your friend,
Sufjon

U2 Sufjon?

 

[CMatt25]

It is understood.

What has been pointed out is that it is
-inconsistent
-uses only the Self as the arbiter of truth, for that which agrees with the Self is that which you affirm; that which disagrees with your own “faith” you proclaim, “God really didn’t say that. And I know because of the feeling I have from praying.”

That’s great PR that you understand now. Because here you were saying you were having difficulty and did not get it.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7869720&postcount=324

There is no more inconsistency in my faith PR than in another’s. Each of our faiths is based on our understanding of our consciences. Devout Catholics such as yourself and Gary, Tom, others, place your faith in the Catholic Church’s interpretation of Herself, in Her interpretation of the Church, in Her interpretation of ECF writings. You follow your conscience and you believe it must conform entirely to the Catholic Church or else your conscience is in err. You believe this because the Catholic Church tells you this and you believe She is the same Church Christ founded and has always remained so.

I keep faith based on my conscience too. And yes before you bring up Fred again, he has his beliefs. I know you don’t understand how I could say Fred is wrong for following his conscience. But I can disagree with him, PR, and do, if only based on what you have told me about Fred.

Just as your conscience tells you I am wrong. And from what I can gather from our many previous discussions, you would get into Fred’s face and tell him he is wrong too and I’m not exactly certain what else you would do with him.

But that doesn’t mean any of us can prove faith. You don’t really know either if God meant what you believe He said as interpreted for you. Yes you can say you do and that your beliefs are the exact correct ones because the Catholic Church tells you so. But that’s not really absolute proof. That’s a belief in the Catholic Church and in all She says.

This does not mean there is relative truth and not one truth. It means we can not prove with absolute certainty what the one truth is. We walk by faith.

And it’s not as if I haven’t tried to believe as you. I have struggled perhaps beyond your imagination. But try and try as I have, there are some things deep within my conscience where as CCC tells you, God’s voice echoes within us, that I simply, PR, can not.

As Sujon says, “You just play out who you are, and you unfold as you are meant to.”

And I place my faith in my Creator’s hands, in His mercy and understanding to know my struggles and to know my heart. It is not some willy nilly “self” but my understanding of Him Whom is my arbiter.

God bless you PRMerger n your lifelong faith journey with Him. And peace be with you always.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sufjon,

As was previously pointed out to you, this man-made religion that claims to be logical does not offer salvation. And, this is the pot you will have put yourself for all eternity.

None of us can understand God. What we can understand is that none of this Universe just came about by some accident - there are just too many patterns, like day followed by night - every day - we have patterns in everything. And a pattern means there is a Pattern Maker.

It is something to consider - and one you need an open mind and heart to begin the journey.

Good luck on the path you have chosen for yourself.

God bless

Hi PRMerger: I think you missed the whole point in what I said. Anyway, as far as the Christian God not having His act together, I can only say that I am still not sure what to make of Him. It sounds like you are agreeing that He has a plan for us. Then you say that you need to be saved. If God has a plan for each of us and some of us go to hell, then He either planned for you to go to Hell, or He doesn’t make very good plans. We had this conversation before. Even if He gave you free will, He certainly knew the outcome for each of us if He had His act together. If He had His act together, then Satan was no accident either. The conclusion is that this is the huge chasm that Christianity would have to cross for me to bu into it. This contradiction in logic does not exist in my religion, hence I am having a very hard time understanding what you are saying. Could you address these points directly?

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Hi, Sufjon,

As was previously pointed out to you, this man-made religion that claims to be logical does not offer salvation. And, this is the pot you will have put yourself for all eternity.

None of us can understand God. What we can understand is that none of this Universe just came about by some accident - there are just too many patterns, like day followed by night - every day - we have patterns in everything. And a pattern means there is a Pattern Maker.

It is something to consider - and one you need an open mind and heart to begin the journey.

Good luck on the path you have chosen for yourself.

God bless

Hello TQualey: I am not sure I follow you. Whose religion is man made and believes the universe is an accident?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sufjon,

Glad to hear you read the article.

Sorry about being a bit late in responding to this post … I am easily distracted …

OK… let’s see what we have here … h-m-m-m-m… “nothing to lose”, eh? I really must disagree with you on that one. Let me explain…

Hi tqualey; I read the article. You asked what I think. I think the Pope is doing his best to defend and protect what he feels to be true. Relativism would indeed seem to threaten all that. Since I have nothing to lose, I also have nothing to defend, but I can certainly understand his POV.

Your friend
Sufjon

I would interpret your respose is a really big YES concerning Relativism. The problem with this, Sufjon, is that is it treats all things as equal… and we know that is not true. For example, grass is food for cows but not food for humans because we cannot disgest cellulose. To treat all foods equally would put both humans and cows in danger - cows can not digest meat.

None of us can consciously chose evil for evil’s sake. It just can not be done. We make choices based on what we think at the time is best for us - and some of our choices have been remarkably short-sighted, self-defeating and harmful. The alcoholic makes a decision that either he wants to stop hurting or he wants to feel better - either way - he chooses to drink more alcohol. This is a destructive choice - it is even more destructive if he gets in a car because he thinks he can drive and runs into you!

Not only are there wise and foolish choices - there are moral absolutes!

The flag you have been waving for Moral Relativism reduces everything to “Why can’t we all just get along?” in the famous words of Rodney King. Christ died for redemption of every one of us - and that means that each of us has a real value. Satan is damned to hell for all eternity - and, his only aim is foolish revenge by trying to deprive the Creator of some of His human creations, So, we have value for the Devil, too. There can be no argument that we have intrinsic value… but there is a difference. God wants to share His Kingdom with us for all eternity. The Devil wants to torment us - truly inferior creatures to the angels - even the fallen ones - for all eternity. Now, please do not think of eternity as a really long period of time. It is the total absence of time. And for a truly finite mind such as I have - that just scares the hell out of me!

Think in terms of defending and protecting the soul that Christ redeemed with His Life, Death and Resurrection. We are not mere spectators in this activity - we are here to do His Will… and for this He has promised us life eternal.

From your posts, it would appear that you have truly embraced Moral Relativism and that our activities at promoting Moral Absolutes are not only misdirected but nonsense. Believe me, you were not the first to think this - nor, will you be the last. St. Paul encountered such opposition when he wrote the beginnng of his first letter to the Corinthians. Paul identified that for some, “…the message of the cross is foolishness…”. Here is link where you can read this first chapter to get the sense of what Paul was addressing:usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians1.htm

You know… there is no future in Relativism - there are some out there with a real agenda and tormenting your soul for all eternity is their target. Those who wave Relativism’s falg are ultimately constrained to actually pick a side, deny evil exists and simply eat, drink and be merry…

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sufjon,

God established the Hebrews as His Chosen People - and the OT is an account of their history. God then sent His Son to be the Redeemer of the world - and established His Church on Peter (Matt 16:18). There is no other that makes such a claim. All other religions have a sinful man deciding that he will chose to follow someone or something in a way that suits the sinful man.

I was under the impression that New Agers were more into things just happen a’la Big Bang and here we are. If this is not accurate, than I apologize.

Hope this answers your questions.

Did you get a chance to read the link I forwarded?

God bless

Hello TQualey: I am not sure I follow you. Whose religion is man made and believes the universe is an accident?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Hi, Sufjon,

God established the Hebrews as His Chosen People - and the OT is an account of their history. God then sent His Son to be the Redeemer of the world - and established His Church on Peter (Matt 16:18). There is no other that makes such a claim. All other religions have a sinful man deciding that he will chose to follow someone or something in a way that suits the sinful man.

God bless

Hi Tqualey: Thank you for sharing. Actually before there was a Hebrew religion, God told people of my faith that we are all His people. Before God came among the Jews as Jesus, He came among us and told us that we are all His children and that no one is ever lost. God coming among Human kind in human form was only new to the Jews. By that time, it had been happening in Hinduism for at least a thousand years. Nothing new to us. So, it does appear to me that you are speaking from what seems to be the vacuum of Jewish-Christian experience, which in it’s ego-centric nature is a form of relativism. I don’t think God made the rest of us simply to serve as a dull backdrop against the effulgence of some chosen people. You may believe that if you like, and I would never try to change that, but I certainly can’t with any honesty say that I agree or even see the logic in it, especially knowing God as the more loving and inclusive God that I already know.

Your friend
Jesus