Why are the Protestants so misinformed with "works"?

[TULIPed]

Thanks. I appreciate your kind words.

Pride is a sin I pray for help with every day. Unfortunately, the Holy Spirit seems to be working me over on patience lately. Which I’m terrible with as well. Come to think of it, I’m pretty sorry at it all. Depraved really.

 

[TULIPed]

I usually tell Protestants that good works are the fruits of our faith.

And we would agree. We would say that the Holy Spirit living within us gets all the credit for any and all good works that we do.

 

[po18guy]

Go straight to the Divine Physician! Just as I said. What are you afraid of? You will not believe some of the miracles that have occurred there. I can attest to a few of them myself.

 

[Dan_Defender]

And we would agree. We would say that the Holy Spirit living within us gets all the credit for any and all good works that we do.

Thanks for agreeing, but I know Protestants who don’t and who claim that having faith is enough.

 

[TULIPed]

I go to him every day - a lot. Lots and lots of humility and patience to work on…

 

[TULIPed]

So they say that we should “go on sinning so that grace might increase”? Odd Protestants these folks.

 

[De_Maria]

We would disagree on this considering Paul is using the law to universally disqualify both Jew and Gentiles as righteous in God’s sight in Romans 1-3.

On the contrary, Rom 2:13, “Doers of the Law are justified”.

In other words, in Rom 2, St. Paul explains that Jews and Gentiles are justified by doing the Law.

That is a glaring error in the Protestant explanation of Rom 1-3.

The Gentile, who didn’t have the law to include the ceremonial laws such as circumcision are upheld as examples to the Jews for being a law to themselves when they obey it (the moral law, rather than the ceremonial law) in Chapter 2. Both Jew and Gentile are then condemned universally in Chapter 3 before Paul discusses how we are justified by faith apart from works.

On the contrary, in Romans 3, St. Paul segues into an explanation of the justification of those who are children of Abraham. If you read the details of his explanation, it is plain that he is talking about the justification that occurs during the Sacraments. This is the justification that occurs apart from the works which have already been clearly defined in Rom 2. Those who are justified by doing the Law, are perfectly justified by faith apart from works in the Sacraments.

It is Catholics, who like Abraham, declare their faith in God and God looks into their hearts and declares them faithful, then washes of their sins in the Washing of Regeneration. See also Titus 3:5

James’ entire treatise is in reference to the outward demonstration of faith for the benefit of one’s brother. Protestants have no issue harmonizing Paul and James.

Impossible. His main example is the episode where Abraham offers Isaac on the mountain. There is no one there to witness the event, except the Angel of God.

Protestants also agree that one cannot separate faith and works. However, we do not deny Paul by saying that our works justify us before God.

St. Paul said exactly that. See Rom 2:13.
And St. James also. See James 2:24

The two things are linked in the life of the believer, not for justification but in sanctification. We tend to define these terms using the distinctions Paul uses in his epistles.

Where?

 

[fhansen]

And Protestant teaching takes into account the role of works in the Christian life. We just don’t tie it to justification. We tie it to sanctification as Paul did.

Exactly, man is no longer obligated to actually be righteousness; sola fide/imputed righteousness effectively gives him the license to remain as he was before “justification”, so-called. What a deal!

 

[fhansen]

I always find it interesting when someone’s prooftext stops short of reading the whole passage. You forgot this part that Paul is building up to: For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Rom 2 stands very well on its own; man is still obligated to be righteous under the New Covenant. The law, while holy, spiritual, and good, cannot justify man; only God can do so. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). Man’s “righteousness” is as filthy rags, but the “righteousness of God”, which comes as the Spirit indwells and we live/abide in Him, accomplishes in us what we cannot on our own: the justice or righteousness man was made for. God did not create man to be a sinner after all.

 

[De_Maria]

So they say that we should “go on sinning so that grace might increase”? Odd Protestants these folks.

They’re out there. I’ve met them.

PS Luther taught what you just said. “Sin and sin mightily, and grace will abound the more.”

 

[TULIPed]

PS Luther taught what you just said. “Sin and sin mightily, and grace will abound the more.”

No kidding. Please point me to the quote, I’d like to read it as I’ve never heard this before. Perhaps @Hodos might have a bit to say about this…

 

[po18guy]

I mean physically and spiritually. If not, then I can state with utter confidence that you have no idea what you are missing. If you love Jesus Christ, you owe it to both Him and yourself to find out.

He doesn’t bite. He’s waiting for you.

 

[TULIPed]

If you love Jesus Christ, you owe it to both Him and yourself to find out.

I do and I have. Thank you for the kind invitation though.

 

[po18guy]

I strongly advise all - Catholic, non-Catholic, non believer - to go to adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Many are ultimately afraid that they will be convicted of the truth of the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ is no one to fear!

Oh, and think seriously about calling Dr. David Anders, an extremely well educated Calvinist theologian.

SRSly.

 

[Wesrock]

And Protestant teaching takes into account the role of works in the Christian life. We just don’t tie it to justification. We tie it to sanctification as Paul did.

The Church teaches that a person’s cooperation in works increases his justification. The Protestant terminology distinction between justification and sanctification doesn’t have ancient widespread use so far as I’m aware. The Church rejects Pelagianism and the idea that man can accomplish anything by himself to merit grace or justification (initial or increase).

 

[Nicene]

If you refer to 2 Peter, all prophecy is directed by the Holy Spirit. Notice that the Holy Spirit gets the credit, not the person

Actually several points on this. By 2 Peter I assume you are referring to this:

2 Pet:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,"
18 we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.
19 And we have the prophetic word made more sure. You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Fist Peter isn’t giving a doctrinal on being “directed” but as it says “moved” (inspired) by the Holy Spirit. There is a vast difference between being directed and being moved. Second in context the section is dealing with false prophets, continued in 3:1 and following. Peter is defending the church as having the interpretation and that the false prophets are interpreting for themselves as the impulse of men. This is in fact what Martin Luther did. Basically this scripture, by using the single line is being taken out of it’s context with regard to Stephen.

cont.

 

[Nicene]

However, you are confusing the issue. Stephen is already justified by God. What you are talking about here is a matter of sanctification. We don’t conflate the two things.

CCC 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion , effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom . On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.

From a Catholic understanding Justification and Sanctification are not a 2 step process as noted earlier in 1 Cor above. In being made right with God in the interior man he also sanctified us. Catholics do not see it as a legal process.
cont.

 

[Nicene]

Grace simply means that God is freely giving of the Holy Spirit to outfit Stephen to fulfill the work he is being led to perform. This isn’t his attribute apart from Christ or the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit working through him in sanctification. The entire book of Acts is about the Holy Spirit leading the Church to fulfill the great commission. The Holy Spirit is the one who gets the credit in Acts. However, none of this happens without God’s free gift of his Son, or the Holy Spirit calling me to faith and sustaining me in the faith. The explanation of the Third Article of the Apostle’s Creed in the small catechism would help explain what we believe about the work of the Holy Spirit if that helps.

1995 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor , the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life

Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!”
16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

2 Pet 1 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

Led by the Holy Spirit, not passive passengers in the car so to speak. Partakers of the divine nature.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Hodos]

Exactly, man is no longer obligated to actually be righteousness; sola fide/imputed righteousness effectively gives him the license to remain as he was before “justification”, so-called. What a deal!

Yep. You should hope so. Your salvation depends on it. But again, you ignored the rest of our theology where works are addressed. Funny how that happens in polemical quips.

Rom 2 stands very well on its own;

Except it doesn’t. That is why there are 15 more chapters in Romans. Chapter one leads to chapter 2, which leads to chapter 3, which leads to chapter 4, etc.

The law, while holy, spiritual, and good, cannot justify man;

Exactly, the law always accuses. You are guilty is what Paul says in the first half of Romans 3. Keep moving forward. If you read the rest of Romans 3 you will be on your way.

 

[Hodos]

No kidding. Please point me to the quote, I’d like to read it as I’ve never heard this before. Perhaps @Hodos might have a bit to say about this…

He is referring to a letter from Luther to Melanchthon (who lived an exceptionally pious life) who was struggling with the same attack of conscience that Luther did. Luther points him to the efficacy of God’s forgiveness rather than dwell on his sin. Unfortunately polemicists stop at one sentence without reading the rest of the letter or the entire body of Luther’s work who literally wrote entire treatises on the place of Good Works in the Christian life, and whose body of Sermons rejected the antinomianism he is being accused of supporting. They also ignore the Lutheran confessions which speak at length on the law and gospel in the life of the Christian in no less than seven separate documents. But since it hasn’t been said enough, here is a couple relevant excerpts from the Augsburg Confession:

“Article IV: Of Justification. Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by his death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in his sight. Rom. 3 and 4.”

“Article VI: Of New Obedience. Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.”

It seems Ambrose was a believer in at least one of the dreaded Solas. It also demonstrates that Luther wasn’t just freelancing.