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Blue_Serenity
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Protestants are always assumed to be wrong.
"Why are there so many different Christian interpretations? If all Christians have th
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SusanL
Guest
You are getting flippant and that is not needed here.Well, are all of your traditions based on Scripture? Doesn’t your catechism have Scripture in it?
If those are true, then it sounds to me like Catholics have everything under control w/o having to personally own or read a Bible.
Did you read my post before? Pope Benedict XVI wants us to read our Bible. You can be Protestant without reading your Bible. You wouldn’t recommend it though.
It is common sense for Catholics to read our Bible. The original complete Bible.
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SusanL
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Not true. You’re getting sensitive.Protestants are always assumed to be wrong.
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jmcrae
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You’ve just said that they are not infallible. This indicates that they are only taking their best guess at the meaning of the Scriptures. They have no way of actually knowing for certain.
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jmcrae
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They would know the main stories of the Old Testament from coming to Sunday Mass - they just wouldn’t know the in-between details. We also teach these stories in Catechism class, and kids learn the main Salvation History stories - in the class that I teach, I cover the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, some of the stories of Abraham and Sarah, Hagar and Ishmael, Isaac, and Jacob and Esau, Joseph and his brothers, Moses, Joshua, Samson and Delilah, Samuel, David, Elijah (in fact, just recently, we did the story of Elijah and the Widow of Zarapheth), Elisha, and Jeremiah. In other grades, they learn about other Old Testament events, as well.
All of the kids in the class own their own Bibles, and I know that they read them, because of the questions they ask during our question period.
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ALLFORHIM
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Ok so if this is the case then how can we know that the Pope knows for certain?
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jmcrae
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Because of Jesus’ promise to him, that the Holy Spirit would guide him to the truth in all things, and that the gates of Hell can never prevail.
This is how we know that the Pope is infallible, because of Jesus’ infallible promise to him. (Jesus is infallible, too.)
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ALLFORHIM
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Jesus promised the HS to all who believe.
1 Corinthian 3:16
1 Corinthians chapter 2 especially verse 4–13
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RNRobert
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Yes, but read 1 Corinthians 12:28-30. All believers receive the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit does not give everyone the same gifts.Jesus promised the HS to all who believe.
1 Corinthian 3:16
1 Corinthians chapter 2 especially verse 4–13
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ALLFORHIM
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Yes and your point is?
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RNRobert
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The Catholic Church believes that it’s leaders have been given the gift of teaching, that the Holy Spirit prevents them from teaching error. As Paul points out, the gift of teaching is not given to all and sundry, but to the pastors of the Church responsible for leading us. You yourself have admitted that you do not posess.
While you have not claimed to have the gift of teaching, and freely admit you are a fallible person, where is one to go to hear the Scriptures preached without error?
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jmcrae
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That not all are Apostles. I Corinthians 12:29.
Only St. Peter was personally given the gift of infallibility. Matthew 16:18.
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ALLFORHIM
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Yes I have not been given the gift of being a pastor. My gift is hospitality/serving.
I go to my minister’s, elders, deacons, my mentor(who has taught me so much biblically) and people who are more mature in their understanding of Scripture then I. I believe there is no such thing as anyone preaching without error. God does not talk about giving anyone this ability. We are told to diligently search the scriptures and hold them close to our heart(paraphrasing) For those who have the HS in them–the HS will give them the understanding of scriptures according to where they are in their life. We all learn until the day we die(that is if you are even studying scripture of course) No one knows all there is to know. There are people(ministers,priests,bishop,pope) who absolutely know more because it is their purpose to study to be able to teach their flock. Which, I have to say my minister does very well. PTLMy minister has extensive knowledge in the bible and he is a Godly man which I can say because I can see his fruit of the spirit and his humility. I believe there are many many other ministers,priest,bishops etc. out there that are exactly the same.
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ALLFORHIM
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RNRobert
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Then what good is an infallible Bible without an infallible interpreter? And, where does it state in Scripture that Scripture is infallible? 1 Tim 3:16 says Scripture is useful, profitable, etc, but it doesn’t claim infallibility. Perhaps the Bible (written by men) isn’t infallible either?
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jmcrae
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He states that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against Peter, meaning that Peter will not be capable of teaching anything that is not actually true.
He also tells Peter that whatever he binds is bound, and whatever he releases is released, giving him the authority to forgive sins and to make disciplinary regulations for the Church.
This is in addition to giving him the name “Peter” which means “Rock” and stating that His Church will be founded upon Peter and his confession of faith. So, there are a lot of things going on in that passage - it’s not only an acknowledgement of Peter’s confession of faith - it includes that, but it is a whole lot more than that, too.
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deb216
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The Bible is not, and never has been, a textbook. Christians are not required to memorize chapter and verse. There is no test. Despite what some would have you believe, Bibles were not prevalent in the early Church. They were not available to study. A scribe would labor all year to produce one, just one, bible. It was a precious and rare treasure.
Early Christians did not read the Word. It was proclaimed to them. What matters is not that we read the Bible but that we learn what we need to learn. Catholics hear the scripture from the cradle to the grave. We learn the entire Bible, not just the parts that Luther saw fit to keep. All of us are reminded to read our Bibles. Many do. Some do not. That is okay. It is not a requirement of salvation.
To those who believe that Catholics do not learn scripture, I invite you to go to Mass. Hear the Word proclaimed! Do not rely on the ignorance of those who built up a strawman and named it “Catholicism.” They have deceived you. Ask yourself, if they are wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? What other lies do they teach…
Early Christians did not read the Word. It was proclaimed to them. What matters is not that we read the Bible but that we learn what we need to learn. Catholics hear the scripture from the cradle to the grave. We learn the entire Bible, not just the parts that Luther saw fit to keep. All of us are reminded to read our Bibles. Many do. Some do not. That is okay. It is not a requirement of salvation.
To those who believe that Catholics do not learn scripture, I invite you to go to Mass. Hear the Word proclaimed! Do not rely on the ignorance of those who built up a strawman and named it “Catholicism.” They have deceived you. Ask yourself, if they are wrong about this, what else are they wrong about? What other lies do they teach…
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Keikiolu
Guest
Thus, you seek help from “authorities”, whom you believe to be wiser than yourself.
So do Catholics.
Catholics do not believe this. Period.
An “error free” book without an “error free” reader (interpreter) is an “ERROR PRONE” situation.
The reason that protestants will admit of no “ultimate authority” that would rectify their admittedly “ERROR PRONE” interpretational situation, is simply because they can’t admit that there IS an ultimate authority,… which makes them (ultimately) crypto-agnostics.
(( Which is probably the best description of a protestant, and the most illustrative and predictive of their behavior. ))
If no one has the ability to interpret the error-free scriptures in an error-free manner (within the confines of doctrine and morals) then the error-free-ness of scripture is moot.
Didn’t Jesus promise that we’d never lose the error-free-ness of the scriptures for all time?
If the scriptures were simply a “help book” for use by individuals to address their problems at various stages of their lives, then that might be a useful purpose for scripture.
Is that all that scripture is?
No ONE claims to “know all there is to know”.
The Pope (and/or him in combo with the Magisterium) claim only that what he interprets, in the areas of doctrine and morals, is “infallible” and to be believed as that ability is conferred by Jesus via the Holy Spirit.
You choose not to believe that. That is your choice, and the choice of those in your denomination(s).
The question is: What is the result or that belief on your denomination(s)?
The result, as demonstrated by the state of the protestant “world”, is unacceptable as a “good” by Catholics, but is acceptable as a “good” by protestants.
So be it.
One can be perfectly logical and consistant within one’s “extensive knowledge” and still be incorrect, simply because the premise’s upon which the knowledge structures are built are incomplete and/or incorrect.There are people(ministers,priests,bishop,pope) who absolutely know more because it is their purpose to study to be able to teach their flock. Which, I have to say my minister does very well. PTL
If you’re happy with the “structures” and “logic” of your teachers, then use them to do good.
If you want to see a more complete and wider set of “structures” and “logic” than your teachers allow for, then study the Church which Jesus FOUNDED (Catholic).
And if you choose not to,… whose loss is your own lack of knowledge in the differences?
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RNRobert
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I just thought of something else. Jesus did not write the New Testament, nor did it just drop down from Heaven. As a matter of fact, the church existed for about 10 years before any of the NT books were written. The early Christians based their faith solely on the verbal *preaching *of the Apostles. So how were they able to keep from error without a New Testament? And since the NT was based on those oral teachings, and if what what you say about not being able to preach without error is true, then how can the New Testament can be trusted?
I think the problem is that Protestants are fixated on the written word. They forget that many cultures pass things through word of mouth as well as the written word.
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RNRobert
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I have news for you. Everybodyreads the Scripture through the lens of their own traditions. Lutherans read Scripture through Lutheran tradition, Presbyterians read Scripture through Presbyterian tradition, Baptists read Scripture through Baptist tradition, and so on. I recall reading a post from someone who had been a Prebyterian. She didn’t believe Baptism was necessary until a Christian of another Protestant denom showed her verses that supported the necessity of Baptism. She was surprised that she never saw that in Scripture before. This was because she read Scripture through Presbyterian beliefs and was unable to see it.
There are exceptions to the rule of course, but these are the folks that usually start their own sects- Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Rusell, Ellen G. White, David Koresh, etc.
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