Why are there so many Jewish atheists and agnostics?

[meltzerboy]

Norman Podhoretz has written a whole book on the subject:

2009: Why Are Jews Liberals? New York: Doubleday,

Although in reality there appears to be a correlation between Jewish atheism (and Jewish theism) and liberalism, there need not be so in principle. IOW, there are Jewish atheists who are not necessarily liberal in their politics.

 

[TheInquisitor]

It seems to me there are more Jewish atheists and agnostics than Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Muslim, or Hindu ones. Do you also think that is the case, and if so, why?

From what I can tell, Jews are a highly educated minority. When you come into contact the natural explanations for Judaism and its origins like the documentary hypothesis or the lack of evidence for Exodus (which is what educated people would come into contact with), it becomes easy to apply Occam’s razor to the supernatural claims and leave then them where they are, in a book.

 

[meltzerboy]

I can understand this and agree that Jewish people have a high tolerance for ambiguity.

Maybe the lack of central authority came about as a result of Judaism splitting into three divisions - Catholics, however fall into similar divisions, (just not officially) and obviously retain one central authority. Wouldn’t God’s laws be the “central authority”?

The questions I have next are: Do Jews believe in absolute truth? Even if God does allow disaster and injustice, is this not God’s will? At what point are we obedient?

Thanks!

G-d’s laws would be the central authority. However, as Shakespeare puts it, the interpretation of G-d’s laws, “there’s the rub.” Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist movements of Judaism interpret those laws in different ways. Even among the Orthodox, there are differences in interpretation. So although Jews might believe in absolute truth, how we perceive that truth differs. In the end, obedience is often coupled with continual questioning and learning, as in the Socratic method, based on studying and understanding the often hidden lessons of the Torah, the Talmud, the Kabbalah.

 

[lax16]

There are Jews who call themselves cultural Jews: among celebrities, Barbara Walters and Amy Goodman, for example. So yes, one can consider oneself Jewish by ethnicity only. And technically, if one is born of a Jewish mother, one is Jewish provided one does not convert, even if one claims to be an atheist.

But aren’t Jews “Jewish” because God called them - which would make it a religion? Did they exist as a people prior to God choosing them?

 

[meltzerboy]

But aren’t Jews “Jewish” because God called them - which would make it a religion? Did they exist as a people prior to God choosing them?

You are correct: they became the “chosen people,” which means they bear a heavy responsibility for practicing G-d’s commandments. They were not chosen, however, by virtue of any special merit. Judaism is certainly a religion, but like Christianity, there are different expressions of the religion, and the religion teaches that one becomes Jewish either by being born to a Jewish mother or by conversion. Jews who convert are in every possible way considered just as Jewish as those who are born into the religion.

 

[lax16]

From what I can tell, Jews are a highly educated minority. When you come into contact the natural explanations for Judaism and its origins like the documentary hypothesis or the lack of evidence for Exodus (which is what educated people would come into contact with), it becomes easy to apply Occam’s razor to the supernatural claims and leave then them where they are, in a book.

TheInquisitor - Here is a discussion about the lack of evidence of Exodus. I think it gives a fair look at both sides.

biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/08/09/The-Exodus-Controversy.aspx#Article

 

[meltzerboy]

From what I can tell, Jews are a highly educated minority. When you come into contact the natural explanations for Judaism and its origins like the documentary hypothesis or the lack of evidence for Exodus (which is what educated people would come into contact with), it becomes easy to apply Occam’s razor to the supernatural claims and leave then them where they are, in a book.

I think you are basically saying that, as an educated group of people, Jews are more likely to be atheists since natural explanations are more economical in thought than supernatural ones, which should remain in the Hebrew Bible but not believed and applied in everyday life. This statement also infers that people who hold and practice religious beliefs are not as proficient in their thinking. Needless to say, not everyone will agree, but thanks for your response.

 

[TheInquisitor]

I think you are basically saying that, as an educated group of people, Jews are more likely to be atheists since natural explanations are more economical in thought than supernatural ones, which should remain in the Hebrew Bible but not believed and applied in everyday life. This statement also infers that people who hold and practice religious beliefs are not as proficient in their thinking. Needless to say, not everyone will agree, but thanks for your response.

Being an atheist, that’s obvious. Just as you think an Atheist’s thinking is not proficient. I don’t expect to be agreed with.

 

[TheInquisitor]

TheInquisitor - Here is a discussion about the lack of evidence of Exodus. I think it gives a fair look at both sides.

biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/08/09/The-Exodus-Controversy.aspx#Article

Archaeologist Edwin Yamauchi points out the limits of this science when he explains:

(1) little of what was made or written in antiquity survives to this day;

(2) few of the ancient sites have been surveyed and a number have not even been found;

(3) probably fewer than 2 percent of the known sites have been meaningfully excavated;

(4) few of these have been more than scratched; and

(5) only a fraction of the fraction that have been excavated have been published and data made available to the scholarly world (1972: chapter 4).

I’ll be happy to except the events of Exodus when this is taken care of.

 

[meltzerboy]

Being an atheist, that’s obvious. Just as you think an Atheist’s thinking is not proficient. I don’t expect to be agreed with.

Not exactly, since I did not state I thought an atheist’s thinking is not proficient. What I meant was there are those who would not agree with you that a believer’s thinking lacks proficiency.

 

[lax16]

I’ll be happy to except the events of Exodus when this is taken care of.

I think the article answered these questions fairly well. What do you think?

We know (from archaeology) that Jesus lived.
Jesus referenced the Exodus.
Why would he do that if it never happened? He was a religious Jew.

Besides, if there were not these significant events in history, why are there Jewish people today? Why can they trace their beliefs back thousands of years if these things never really happened?
It was their belief in **one God and their following His **direction that set them apart from all other people.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

The Jewish people have always had a “somewhat ambivalent” attitude toward G*d.

For example, they had been having a somewhat comfortable, stable life in Egypt for perhaps 300 years … when the Passover “took place”. [In Ancient Egypt there were 30 dynasties (31 if you include Cleopatra, who ended the dynastic system) containing about 332 known Pharaohs.]

So, they left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years.

They had an almost direct relationship with G*d through Moses … and YET … they fashioned the golden calf.

This on-again, off-again relationship cycled back and forth for around 3000 years!

If you study, using Matt Pinto’s chronological Time Line study guide to the Bible, the going back and forth is blinding. The Babylonian Captivity. The capture of the Ark of the Covenant!

And then Jesus of Nazareth arrived.

 

[TheInquisitor]

Not exactly, since I did not state I thought an atheist’s thinking is not proficient. What I meant was there are those who would not agree with you that a believer’s thinking lacks proficiency.

I understand, please forgive my faulty inference then.

Besides, if there were not these significant events in history, why are there Jewish people today? Why can they trace their beliefs back thousands of years if these things never really happened?
It was their belief in one God and their following His direction that set them apart from all other people.

This video is a great summary of what the majority of academia say about the Israelite people and their origin.

youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg

And why would a religious Jew reference the exodus around 15-35 A.D.? Seems logical to me that a Jew who has never heard of such arguments might not have even thought about whether or not it was true in a time like that.

 

[CaptFun]

It seems to me there are more Jewish atheists and agnostics than Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Muslim, or Hindu ones. Do you also think that is the case, and if so, why?

This is so interesting a question to consider and wonder about I have to do it in two
pieces! But here are my thoughts:

The other groups you named are religions. When I think of “Jewish atheists” it is more like an ethnic thing equivalent to “Italian atheists” or “British atheists” than a religious one.

After all, if Abraham, Moses, David and Daniel, Zerubbabel and the Maccabees are important to a people – if they are raised in a Kosher home and read the Pentateuch; observe the Sabbath and Yom Kippur; celebrate the Passover, Purim, and Channukah – it is quite a different experience from an ethnic Jew more analogous to the person of “Irish descent” who becomes Irish on St. Patrick’s Day but couldn’t tell you who Patrick really was or what he did.

There are a lot of “Christians” including “Catholics” who might also trumpet their religious ancestry loudly … but just as loudly demonstrate how much “their own man” they are by
doing something an observing Catholic (say) wouldn’t do. Many of these are practical atheists or agnostics in those areas where they cut themselves some slack and a separate deal (in case there IS a God) where they can sin liberally in their preferred area
yet remain moral and good by condemning things that they find easily observable. IMO.

After 70 AD when Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, the High Jewish priesthood ceased to exist visibly and the people were scattered. No more religious pilgrimages to Jerusalem as in the time of Jesus and the apostles.

The “Jewish priesthood” was kept in place by those Jews who considered Jesus to be the Messiah. And this not through an offering of Lambs etc. but through the Melchizadek Priesthood of the Pentateuch … which ministered to the Gentiles (as foretold in Isaiah and elsewhere). Those early Christians hid their ceremonies from the secular Roman pagan Governments until with Constantine persecution of Christians not only ceased, but it became the favored faith of the state. Churches were built, worship came out more into the open.

The other “branch of Judaism” was persecuted out of its Temple and synagogues, but also had a problem with the new Christian faith that claimed Jesus as the promised Messiah, was teaching in synagogues with authority, sometimes working astounding public miracles that swayed people into conversion. At a council of Jamnia, shortly before Jerusalem was sacked by Titus … the “Jewish Scholars” laid down a canon of scripture which did not include some of the books of the Septuagint.

If that Council had a predominence of the party of Sadducees (which did not believe in the Resurrection) … books like the two Maccabees that alluded directly to the Resurrection that the Christians were preaching would be contradictory to their school of thought.

Aspects of the book of Sirach sounded very much like Jesus speaking, and Wisdom tended toward a summary of the Israelite faith walk with Yahweh that sounded a bit like
Stephen, who was publicly stoned (except for Stephens’ witness to the person of Jesus as Messiah and more).

Though those scriptures were in use and familiar at that time, the Jamnian Council of Jews (who did NOT accept Jesus as the Messiah nor have a representative segment with that view) did not “canonize” that part of the Septuagint they found disturbing – ruling that scriptures without a physical Hebrew basis (e.g. parchment written in Hebrew) were not part of the “canon”.

Throughout the Empire however, the ruling of that Council took time to get out. And as the Romans went to war with Judea more and more synagogues were persecuted in the dispersion (Jews outside of Palestine throughout the Empire). So many groups retained the Septuagint completely, including 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith and 1 and 2 Esdras (Ezra and Nehemiah) and the Septuagint had longer endings to some books like Daniel as well.

Moving from religious Jews to those Jews who were famous in other fields than religion may explain part of your question. Karl Marx famously was an atheist of Jewish descent.
And had his (non-religious/anti-religious) followers. Communism is somewhat of an anti-religion religion (no god, but requiring a religious-like loyalty and full commitment from its members akin to religious zeal at times).

Every so often a person like Sandy Koufax comes to the fore to demonstrate how much his faith means to him. Famously, during one World Series, he would not pitch on Yom Kippur.

(continued in part 2)

 

[CaptFun]

(continued from part 1)

Every so often a person like Sandy Koufax comes to the fore to demonstrate how much his faith means to him. Famously, during one World Series, he would not pitch on Yom Kippur.

Without naming them there are many famous Jewish people who never allude to worship but might even poke fun at Jewish worship or customs to please an audience of Gentiles or “freethinking Jews”. Then there are those who are devout but prefer not to wear their faith on their sleeve – so as to better fit in with the non-Jewish majority all around them (but if pressed would proclaim their faith - or perhaps demonstrate their faith in a small way
like wearing a skullcap or some jewelry with a pious reference (star of David etc.).

Jews were prominent in the Russian Revolution in both the Menshevik and Bolshevik parties – the victorious Bosheviks were officially atheist. Leon Trotsky was one of the top leaders of the revolution, which claimed to be a worldwide one (not just for Russia). V. I. Lenin was supposed to have been 1/4 Jewish (a great grandfather) ethnically.

While hardly the reestablishment of the Kingdom of David … maybe this is why some ethnic Jews liked Communism so much. “They” had risen to the top there (even if the religion of their ancestors was still persecuted in Russia by official atheism).

The over-the-top anti-semitism of the Nazis and their death camps may have moved
some toward the (atheist) Soviet Union again as the Red Army (and the Democratic allies) defeated Germany in World War II.

When Russia got the A-bomb via the Rosenbergs and David Greenglass, the US Government was accused of anti-semitism in its upcoming prosecution and so named Irving Saypol as prosecutor and Irving Kaufman as the judge to disprove the charge.

Upon conviction, the Rosenbergs were seen as martyrs in some quarters and traitorous villains in others. Their dedication to Communism was admitted even when they denied being spies. And so here were some “famous Jews” committed zealously to Communism which, being Atheistic in its principles, would consider Judaism to be part of the “opiate of the people” ethnic Jew Karl Marx complained about.

During the cold war there were some patriotic American Jews who complained of their ethnic counterparts who seemed to favor Communism or make excuses for it while
reviling American Jews whose opposition to Communism was just as zealous.

As there is no single Pope to unify the Jewish worshippers with a settling ruling … it appears that even the believers among the Jews are separated into groups like Hasidic,
Conservative, and Liberal Jews (more perhaps?).

One could ask why are their so many (de facto) Christian or Catholic atheists and agnostics too, I suppose. But that was not the question here.

And my “answer” to the question is more of a “wondering” and presenting fragments of
things I’ve observed than a hard theory proposed for scrutiny.

As a Catholic I feel that part of MY heritage is “Jewish” and more ancient than that. Pre-Abraham even … going back past Noah to the sacrifice of Abel that was pleasing to God.

But God’s relationship with the children of Abraham and the developments up to the coming of Jesus and the establishment of the Church are important to me and apply to my faith today. The Catholic (“Universal” in Greek) Church invites people of all ancestries and ethnicities to join her in worshipping Our Lord. Including those who are today “atheists” or “agnostics” for the time being. St. Thomas would be a good patron saint for those.

And for Jews who consider Catholicism: you’d be welcomed HOME in a sense.
Jesus and the 12 apostles were all Jewish by ethnicity … and the priesthood, the chair of Moses, and even the promised dynasty of David are preserved in the world today in the Catholic Church. Even though there are more IMPORTANT things preserved there too.

These “Jews” that founded the Catholic Church changed the world forever. The life and teachings of Jesus answer the most profound questions of life and existence and extend even unto the next world. From a persecuted few to a worldwide faith that influenced civilization with dramatic effects.

If as a Jew (anyone) you await the Messiah … Jesus will be a big act to follow. We Christians would welcome you home … and tell you … you are right to await the Messiah as you do … for he is coming! (Back!) Shalom always.

 

[WildCatholic]

That may be the case for some or many Reform Jews. However, as a Reform Jew myself, I would draw a distinction between Reform Judaism and cultural Judaism. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

I’m sorry, I don’t know many reform jews personally, so I assumed most “cultural” jews were from the reformed tradition

 

[Darryl1958]

Leftism is a religion. It makes Judaism as a faith reudundant.
Jews have been from the left since WWII, so they have been more susceptible to the religion of Leftism.

 

[meltzerboy]

Does Judaism teach that if you don’t believe in God, you will go to hell?
If not, that might be one reason.
Fear of eternal fire and torture often keeps someone attached to a religion, I’ve heard some say-- even when they are not really believing in it so much.

No, Judaism does not teach this. In fact, it does not focus on speculation of the World to Come, and its conception of hell is the separation from G-d rather than eternal fire and torture. Therefore you may have a good point. Thanks for your reply.

 

[meltzerboy]

(continued from part 1)

Every so often a person like Sandy Koufax comes to the fore to demonstrate how much his faith means to him. Famously, during one World Series, he would not pitch on Yom Kippur.

Without naming them there are many famous Jewish people who never allude to worship but might even poke fun at Jewish worship or customs to please an audience of Gentiles or “freethinking Jews”. Then there are those who are devout but prefer not to wear their faith on their sleeve – so as to better fit in with the non-Jewish majority all around them (but if pressed would proclaim their faith - or perhaps demonstrate their faith in a small way
like wearing a skullcap or some jewelry with a pious reference (star of David etc.).

Jews were prominent in the Russian Revolution in both the Menshevik and Bolshevik parties – the victorious Bosheviks were officially atheist. Leon Trotsky was one of the top leaders of the revolution, which claimed to be a worldwide one (not just for Russia). V. I. Lenin was supposed to have been 1/4 Jewish (a great grandfather) ethnically.

While hardly the reestablishment of the Kingdom of David … maybe this is why some ethnic Jews liked Communism so much. “They” had risen to the top there (even if the religion of their ancestors was still persecuted in Russia by official atheism).

The over-the-top anti-semitism of the Nazis and their death camps may have moved
some toward the (atheist) Soviet Union again as the Red Army (and the Democratic allies) defeated Germany in World War II.

When Russia got the A-bomb via the Rosenbergs and David Greenglass, the US Government was accused of anti-semitism in its upcoming prosecution and so named Irving Saypol as prosecutor and Irving Kaufman as the judge to disprove the charge.

Upon conviction, the Rosenbergs were seen as martyrs in some quarters and traitorous villains in others. Their dedication to Communism was admitted even when they denied being spies. And so here were some “famous Jews” committed zealously to Communism which, being Atheistic in its principles, would consider Judaism to be part of the “opiate of the people” ethnic Jew Karl Marx complained about.

During the cold war there were some patriotic American Jews who complained of their ethnic counterparts who seemed to favor Communism or make excuses for it while
reviling American Jews whose opposition to Communism was just as zealous.

As there is no single Pope to unify the Jewish worshippers with a settling ruling … it appears that even the believers among the Jews are separated into groups like Hasidic,
Conservative, and Liberal Jews (more perhaps?).

One could ask why are their so many (de facto) Christian or Catholic atheists and agnostics too, I suppose. But that was not the question here.

And my “answer” to the question is more of a “wondering” and presenting fragments of
things I’ve observed than a hard theory proposed for scrutiny.

As a Catholic I feel that part of MY heritage is “Jewish” and more ancient than that. Pre-Abraham even … going back past Noah to the sacrifice of Abel that was pleasing to God.

But God’s relationship with the children of Abraham and the developments up to the coming of Jesus and the establishment of the Church are important to me and apply to my faith today. The Catholic (“Universal” in Greek) Church invites people of all ancestries and ethnicities to join her in worshipping Our Lord. Including those who are today “atheists” or “agnostics” for the time being. St. Thomas would be a good patron saint for those.

And for Jews who consider Catholicism: you’d be welcomed HOME in a sense.
Jesus and the 12 apostles were all Jewish by ethnicity … and the priesthood, the chair of Moses, and even the promised dynasty of David are preserved in the world today in the Catholic Church. Even though there are more IMPORTANT things preserved there too.

These “Jews” that founded the Catholic Church changed the world forever. The life and teachings of Jesus answer the most profound questions of life and existence and extend even unto the next world. From a persecuted few to a worldwide faith that influenced civilization with dramatic effects.

If as a Jew (anyone) you await the Messiah … Jesus will be a big act to follow. We Christians would welcome you home … and tell you … you are right to await the Messiah as you do … for he is coming! (Back!) Shalom always.

Thank you for this engaging history lesson. You make several interesting points relative to the topic.

 

[Miriam1947]

The Jewish people have always had a “somewhat ambivalent” attitude toward G*d.

For example, they had been having a somewhat comfortable, stable life in Egypt for perhaps 300 years … when the Passover “took place”. [In Ancient Egypt there were 30 dynasties (31 if you include Cleopatra, who ended the dynastic system) containing about 332 known Pharaohs.]

So, they left Egypt and wandered in the desert for 40 years.

They had an almost direct relationship with G*d through Moses … and YET … they fashioned the golden calf.

This on-again, off-again relationship cycled back and forth for around 3000 years!

If you study, using Matt Pinto’s chronological Time Line study guide to the Bible, the going back and forth is blinding. The Babylonian Captivity. The capture of the Ark of the Covenant!

And then Jesus of Nazareth arrived.

Have they found graves? One would think that that many people wandering the desert for 40 years would have had people die and be buried.