Why are there three Persons in God? Why not more? and related questions

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I’ll take this as as attempt at question 1. I see that you are saying He has to exist as a Trinity because that is that nature of God. But why three? Moreover, why does the existence of Persons stop at three?
I don’t think anyone can fully answer that without being God. My own guess is that three Persons fully express the Divine Nature, just as three sides fully express the nature of “triangle,” no more, no less.

Since the Trinity is known from divine revelation (we would not have known it otherwise) we have no basis to speculate that there are more persons, or fewer persons, than what has been revealed.
 
I havent receiveded any acceptable answers. All youve said to me is that I should just believe.

I don’t get the problem. I am asking why is God Triune? Why are you so offended by that?

I also ask why wasnt another Person generated from the love of the three Persons? Again, why is that wrong?

All respects, but you seem to be a bit defensive because you don’t know the answers to the questions. Please post elsewhere where you may be helpful.

You have a closed mindset that tells me basically that, “What I believe is what is obviously true”. Okay, but I am asking questions so that I know why I believe something. If you want to remain ignorant of the matter that is up to you.

If you want to complain further or tell me how nonsensical I my questions are, please PM me.

Like I said, please don’t bother wasting space on this thread. Post in the many other threads that are available.

**Can someone please get back to the OP. **
 
I don’t think anyone can fully answer that without being God. My own guess is that three Persons fully express the Divine Nature, just as three sides fully express the nature of “triangle,” no more, no less.

Since the Trinity is known from divine revelation (we would not have known it otherwise) we have no basis to speculate that there are more persons, or fewer persons, than what has been revealed.
Jim,

One of the reasons I am so curious about this is that the Church obviously believes that she does know some of the answers, otherwise she wouldnt have defined the truths.

Like I have mentioned in other threads, I think that based on the bible alone, the Church couldnt have come up with so comprehensive a doctrine. So much has been defined by the Church that goes beyond the Scriptures.

Someone correct me if Im wrong. But issues like, each Person of the Trinity fully possesses the divine Nature, they do not share that Nature goes beyond the Scriptures and human reasoning.

Another one is that the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped. Where in the Scriptures alone do we find this? How do we know that the Holy Spirit is co-eternal, and omnipotent like the Father and the Son based on the Bible alone?

What Im saying is that obviously the Church did feel that she could make doctrines even though those concepts relating to God are obviously difficult for the human mind to grasp. No wonder there are so many religions and conflicting beliefs out there.
 
You havent provided any acceptable answers. All youve said to me is that I should just believe. You havent provided me with much insight at all.

I don’t get the problem. I am asking why is God Triune? Why are you so offended by that?

I also ask why wasnt another Person generated from the love of the three Persons? Again, why is that wrong?

All respects, but you seem to be a bit defensive because you don’t know the answers to the questions. Please post elsewhere where you may be helpful.

You have a closed mindset that tells me basically that, “What I believe is what is obviously true”. Okay, but I am asking questions so that I know why I believe something. If you want to remain ignorant of the matter that is up to you.
Since you don’t understand, or rather prefer to not take the correct answer to a question as an answer to your question, what revelation actually is, I can’t help you with your nonsensical questions. Obviously! 🙂
If you want to complain further or tell me how nonsensical I my questions are, please PM me.
Like I said, please don’t bother wasting space on this thread. Post in the many other threads that are available.
**Can someone please get back to the OP. **
Do you believe in the Holy Trinity which is God?
 
I don’t think it’s possible to give you a satisfactory answer, MH84.

The inner nature of God is not something that human reason can comprehend. What little we do know about the Trinity has been revealed to us by God, not worked out by us on our own.

It’s true that the Scriptures are not as specific about the Trinity as some later theological statements have been. On the other hand, as Catholics we believe that the Scriptures, while inspired of God, are not the totality of Revelation.

Catholic teaching is based on what Jesus taught the apostles, and what the Holy Spirit led the apostles to teach, a great deal of which is recorded or at least alluded to in the Scriptures.

Later philosophical definitions were arrived at because they seemed to best explain and defend the truth as it had been revealed. The early Christians, being Jewish in background, knew there was only one God. Yet Scripture sometimes describes Jesus as possessing traits proper only to God, and seems to present Jesus and His Father as distinct entities in some sense. Likewise, the Holy Spirit sometimes seems to be a name for the power or activity of God, but at other times Jesus talks of the Spirit as a personal entity, distinct from both Himself and the Father. And it’s possible to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, a sin Jesus considered more terrible than blasphemy against Himself. Finally, the apostled handed down from Jesus Himself the teaching that baptism should be performed “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” seemingly putting the three on the same level.

So, out of the revealed Tradition (including the written Scripture), we have three entities that are distinct enough to have different names or titles, all of whom are described at one time or another as possessing the traits of God. Yet we have only one God, and must worship Him alone.

It’s only natural that Christians would debate exactly what was being revealed to them in these teachings. That especially happened when someone would publicly put forward an interpretation that seemed a little “off” to other people, as though it maybe overemphasized one aspect of the revelation and didn’t grapple properly with the others. Eventually, over the course of multiple Councils, the bishops hammered out very precise philosophical statements about the relationships within the Trinity. Naturally, these were more detailed than the Scriptural data, because the exact problem was the many interpretations one could put on that data. The bishops wanted a clear statement that they could point to and say “This is what Jesus and the apostles meant, expressed as exactly as we can manage it. If you teach something else, you have gotten it wrong somewhere down the line.”

Attempts at explaining the Trinity by analogy, such as the lover/beloved/love idea, can be helpful, but are necessarily limited and should not be taken as central to the teaching itself.

So … why are there three Persons in the Godhead, no fewer and no more? If you are asking that in an absolute sense, there is no answer. There’s no “why” to God; He is the way He is. If you are asking why the Church recognizes three Persons and not some other number, it is because that is what the data of revelation suggest. We are told of Father, Son, and Spirit, but no others like them.

Why, in the “lover/beloved/love” analogy, does the love between Father and Son manifest as one Person rather than two? Well, because the analogy is just that – a way of trying to make sense of what we are already told, namely that God is one yet three. Since four is not given as an option, the analogy does not attempt to go there.

Why is it taught that each Person possesses the Divine Nature in full rather than dividing it up? That’s just a matter of reasoning from premises to conclusions. In this case, since God is held to be infinitely simple and without parts, it is simply not possible that the Persons “split” the Nature. Likewise, the language of revelation indicates that each Person is God in His own right, not one of a set of sub-gods that snap together to make the full God like some Transformers toys.

Why do we teach that the Holy Spirit is God right alongside the Father and Son? Well, obviously that’s not as clear in the data of revelation, since it took a bit longer for the Spirit’s status to be definitively settled than it did for the other two. However, as I noted above, even in Scripture itself we see the Spirit referred to as a personal entity (not just a power or force) with attributes proper only to God. And of course, the baptismal formula (which soon became the universal Christian blessing) seems to place all three on the same level and declares that they have between them only a single name.

Does that help at all?

Usagi
 
PM me, you are making a fool of yourself here.
I’d rather have you “educate” us with your “wisdom” in public, mon frere. 🙂

So, are you or are you not a Trinitarian Christian?
 
  1. Did God “have” to exist in a Trinity?
If so, why did the Nature of God require only three Persons, why not four or an infinite number?.
MH84 here is an deductive argument that I came up against Modalism a few years back.

P1) God is LOVE.
P2) God is a necessary being (meaning that He defines Himself and needs nothing outside of Himself)
P3) Perfect Love involves giving oneself to another (No greater love than a man willing to give up his life for his friends)
C1) God the person must love another person.
C2) Since God needs nothing outside of Himself and God is perfect love then God must be a plural person being.

Because of the John’s revelation that God is Love, the Christian God cannot be anything but a Triune God. If He is not then He by definition would not be God. For if God is Love that love must be perfect inside of Himself, it cannot be fulfilled by being directed outside the Godhead. If it is then it means that God needs something outside of Himself which means that God is not a necessary being but rather a contingent being which results in God being imperfect.

So John’s revelation destroyed the possibility of seeing God as a monad. He must be a plural person being.

MH84, I am running out of time so I will attempt to answer the other questions tomorrow.

God Bless,

Emite
 
Why did the Nature of God require only three Persons, why not four or an infinite number?
That is asking Why is God the way He is. That is like asking why we have one head or two arms.

These are things we aren’t going to find out until we behold the beatific vision.
 
Thread pruned of uncharitable and largely irrelevant posts.

Please remain on the topic and maintain the highest levels of charity or expect citations and a closed thread.
MF
 
**I want to quickly add before I continuing posting here is that I support that the moderator stepped in. However, due to the complexity of the issue is seems that some of my comments in post 14# are now out of context.

I want to state clearly here that none of those comments were directed at anyone on this thread. It was to another party. The posts from that person for some reason was completely removed. My comment were directed at that poster, not anyone whose posts are still present.**
 
If so, why did the Nature of God require only three Persons, why not four or an infinite number?
  1. If the Father is the Lover, and the Son is the Beloved, and the Holy Spirit is the outpouring of love from the Father and the Son, why isn’t their a fourth Person who is generated from the love of the three Persons?
  2. Also, if the Holy Spirit is the outpouring of love between the Father and the Son how isnt He composed of two Persons? What I mean is the basic philosophy I understand is that the Son is the “thought” of God the Father, and because He is perfect, the thought is Personified as the Son.
Concerning the number of persons in the Trinity it falls back again to John’s Revelation that God is Love.

P1)The Father loves the Son perfectly.
P2)The Son loves the Father perfectly.
P3) Nothing is perfect except for God.
P4) God is Love.
C1) Therefore the Love that is shared between the Father and the Son is God.

Why only one Holy Spirit instead of two? Well from my personal experience in my marriage is that I love my wife and she loves me. But this is not two loves, rather one love that is shared. Love in the spiritual world is like gravity in the physical world. Love is the binding force or the force that brings together. So the Love that is shared between the Father and the Son is not two loves but one Love.
 
Usagi, even though in my opinion you only seem to be hinting at the answers Im looking for, your post has been clearly one of the most patient, well thought out and sober posts that Ive read lately on this forum. Especially if you are just a laymen like me. 🙂
 
MH84 here is an deductive argument that I came up against Modalism a few years back.

P1) God is LOVE.
P2) God is a necessary being (meaning that He defines Himself and needs nothing outside of Himself)
P3) Perfect Love involves giving oneself to another (No greater love than a man willing to give up his life for his friends)
C1) God the person must love another person.
C2) Since God needs nothing outside of Himself and God is perfect love then God must be a plural person being.

Because of the John’s revelation that God is Love, the Christian God cannot be anything but a Triune God. If He is not then He by definition would not be God. For if God is Love that love must be perfect inside of Himself, it cannot be fulfilled by being directed outside the Godhead. If it is then it means that God needs something outside of Himself which means that God is not a necessary being but rather a contingent being which results in God being imperfect.

So John’s revelation destroyed the possibility of seeing God as a monad. He must be a plural person being.

MH84, I am running out of time so I will attempt to answer the other questions tomorrow.

God Bless,

Emite
ERose I appreciate your attempts at some of my hard questions lately.

I see that you answered my first question without pretending that you are answering everything.

But I have a question based on this line of thinking. I have to repeat, “Why a Trinity?”

I know this is a very hypothectical question but, are you saying that if God was only one Person he wouldnt be love itself like he is as a Trinity? I don’t think that is plausible.

Even if it was, why is the optimal number of Persons for a perfect God of love, three Persons?

Why not two? Look at a human husband and wife for instance. Is their love any less for each other if they don’t have a child? Or, if a couple had two children instead of one would their love be even greater than when there was only three members of the family?

Also, Ive just thought of a point, a good one I think :):

You know how we have an understanding that the Son is generated because the Father had a perfect thought of Himself, and therefore that thought was Personified? Well, wasn’t that thought Love?! Or at least, wasnt love a “part” of that thought? So if that is the case, how does the generation of Persons increase the love that is in God if He already loved Himself perfectly?

Finally, if three is the optimal number of Persons for a God that is Love, why would 4 Persons decrease that love? Wouldnt that increase God’s love based on what you are saying ERose?

I hope someone has some insight for questions 2 and 3. Because I wonder why was the Holy Spirit the last Person to be generated by God? Why wasn’t there another Person generated from the perfect outpouring of love from the three Persons? I wonder what the ECF thought about this. Even though some of them are hard for me to read/understand because of their wisdom and knowledge.
 
MH84,

Thank you for your kind response for my response to your question. Hopefully my comments are helping you on with some of your questions and to be honest this is a great opportunity for all of us to learn more about our God for it forces us to think about Him. For I believe that the Trinity is the pinnacle of all truth and our eyes, hearts and minds should be directed toward Him.
I know this is a very hypothectical question but, are you saying that if God was only one Person he wouldnt be love itself like he is as a Trinity? I don’t think that is plausible.
The argument above that I proposed is a deductive argument. (I do not know you, so I do not know how affluent you are with logic and if you are affluent please forgive me. A deductive argument is defined as if all the premises are true statements and the conclusion is deduced from the premises then the conclusion must be be true.) What that means is logically the conclusion of the argument I propose must be true unless one or more of the premises are false. So to invalidate a deductive argument, you must invalidate at least one premise. So when looking at the argument I have proposed which of the premise(s) are invalid in your mind and why?
You know how we have an understanding that the Son is generated because the Father had a perfect thought of Himself, and therefore that thought was Personified?
One of the ways you need to change your view of God is that there is no time in God. God has no history. No beginning, no end, no change. The Son and Spirit have always been and always will be. So the best way to evaluate this that that the Son is eternally generated or begotten from the Father and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son. Anyway one way to look at the Son is that the Son is the Focus of the Father’s Love. This Focus has alway been and alway will be and vice versa. The Father is the Focus of the Son’s Love as well.
Well, wasn’t that thought Love?! Or at least, wasnt love a “part” of that thought?
Yes for God is Love.
So if that is the case, how does the generation of Persons increase the love that is in God if He already loved Himself perfectly?
There is no increase of Love in God for Perfect Love cannot be improved upon. Remember also that according to our Saviour, Love is perfected by totally giving of oneself to another. (No greater love than a man willing to give up his life for his Friend) So in the Trinity Love is perfect.
Finally, if three is the optimal number of Persons for a God that is Love, why would 4 Persons decrease that love? Wouldnt that increase God’s love based on what you are saying ERose?
The reason for only 3 is that it is complete. Lover, Beloved, & Love.
 
  1. Did God “have” to exist in a Trinity?
If so, why did the Nature of God require only three Persons, why not four or an infinite number?
  1. If the Father is the Lover, and the Son is the Beloved, and the Holy Spirit is the outpouring of love from the Father and the Son, why isn’t their a fourth Person who is generated from the love of the three Persons?
  2. Also, if the Holy Spirit is the outpouring of love between the Father and the Son how isnt He composed of two Persons? What I mean is the basic philosophy I understand is that the Son is the “thought” of God the Father, and because He is perfect, the thought is Personified as the Son.
Now, if that thought is Personified to beget one Person (the Son), how is the perfect love from the Father and the Son restricted to form only one other Person (the Holy Spirit)? The love of the Father is perfect as is the Son’s love. So why wasn’t two Persons formed from the outpouring of the Father and the Son?
  1. Is this why (question 3) the Orthodox church believes the Holy Spirit proceeded only from the Father?
Btw, questions 2 and 3 are similar, but not exactly the same.
How about:

What is, is.
 
. . .

I know this is a very hypothectical question but, are you saying that if God was only one Person he wouldnt be love itself like he is as a Trinity? I don’t think that is plausible.

Even if it was, why is the optimal number of Persons for a perfect God of love, three Persons?
. . .
The reason God is a Trinity is because God is love. Love requires twoness, in fact threeness: the lover, the beloved, and the act, or relationship, of love between them. God is Trinity because God is love itself in its completeness.
The doctrine of the Trinity makes the most concrete and practical difference to our lives that can possibly be imagined. Because God is a Trinity, God is love. Because God is love, love is the supreme value. Because love is the supreme value, it is the meaning of our lives, for we are created in God’s image. The fact that God is a Trinity is the reason why love is the meaning of life and the reason why nothing makes us as happy as love: because that is inscribed in our design. . . .
The doctrine of the Trinity also tells us the nature of love. Love is altruistic, not egoistic. God is other-love because he has otherness within himself; he is more than one Person.
Pope John Paul II says: “God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.” The doctrine of the Trinity means that the family is not a mere sociological or biological human fact but “goes all the way up” into the nature of God.
books.google.com/books?id=VZ-xgfJkNNgC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=god+in+his+deepest+mystery+is+not+a+solitude&source=web&ots=rGKr5NZaBY&sig=SbUeMBojvgcnzNHuzsObYi9JFws
 
Usagi, even though in my opinion you only seem to be hinting at the answers Im looking for, your post has been clearly one of the most patient, well thought out and sober posts that Ive read lately on this forum. Especially if you are just a laymen like me. 🙂
Laywoman, actually. But thank you.

Would you mind engaging with my post a bit more? I am curious to hear what you got out of my points and what you feel still needs to be addressed. I am happy to have provided “hints” but I am eager to help further if I can 🙂

Usagi
 
MH84:

Is your primary difficulty with the doctrine of the Trinity itself, or with the images, analogies, and philosophical elaborations used to explain it?

As I put forth in my previous post, the Church started from the original revelation – that there is only one God; that nevertheless Father, Son, and Spirit are all in some sense God; and that they are also in some sense distinct from each other – and developed all that other stuff along the way.

“God is a Trinity because God is Love and therefore must have existed as a relationship from all eternity, before anything outside God was created” is one attempt to give a “why” for the Trinity, but it’s not the Trinity doctrine itself. If you don’t find it useful, feel free to think about the Trinity in some other way.

Likewise, the specific “Lover/Beloved/Love” analogy came after, and is subordinate to, the basic idea of the Trinity. Sure, if you start from the analogy, it might be possible to work out that God could consist of only two Persons, or of a number larger than three. But the revelation about God’s “threeness” came well before that analogy was devised. The analogy is meant to help people comprehend the existing notion of the Trinity, not to serve as an independent meditation on God’s nature that could lead to all sorts of equally plausible conclusions.

On a different topic, others have pointed out that you are missing something when you refer to what the Father “was already” before begetting the Son, or to the Holy Spirit as the “last” Person generated. In the orthodox (small-o) conception of the Trinity (based on the data of revelation as filtered through the first few Councils), God exists as Trinity from all eternity. He didn’t “start out” as just the Father, then sire the Son, and finally generate the Spirit. Thus there is no sense in which He could have decided to stop after one additional Person or to continue to generate more. We believe that the Trinity is a revelation about God’s essential inner nature – “as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end,” as the well-known doxology concludes.

Usagi
 
I will just add to what has already been written, the following thoughts.

Theologians, like scientists, are limited to working with the facts at hand. The scientist must work with the observed facts of nature. The theologian must work with the facts of revelation, along with whatever can be deduced of the Creator by the observation of His creation.

A scientist would not tenably be able to propose a hypothesis about the nature and inner workings of the tooth fairy, for example, unless he had some evidence from nature to go on.

Now, the facts of revelation consist of what has been handed down from the Apostles through scripture and Tradition. But the fact of the Trinity comes entirely from revelation. Christianity and its Judaic forbear is and remains, a monotheistic religion. We believe in only one God.

The only source of facts about the trinity therefore is from the revelation of Christ. Like the scientist, we conform our hypotheses to the facts at hand. The purpose of theology, in this sense, is to make sense of what has been handed down to us. Not because it’s necessary to develop it further, but because we want to think about the ramifications of what has been revealed, and to be able to refute false conclusions about those facts.

And the only way the Church can avoid falling into heresy when considering the nature of God, is through the guidance of the Holy Spirit himself. Theologians may argue all they like, but it is ultimately up to the magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, to say, “yes, this is what we believe,” or “no, that is not what we believe.” Without the charism of infallibility (which recall is a negative gift), even the best theological thinking about the nature of God would lead us into a variety of contradictory directions.

So we are somewhat in the position of a colony of intelligent ants. Some human being has revealed to them something about our nature. And they could speculate, for example about the reasons that humans have no exoskeleton, concluding perhaps that maybe some humans do, and that information was just never revealed to them. But it probably wouldn’t get them any closer to really understanding us, and perhaps leave them with a false picture of our real nature.
 
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