Why are these Fora so overwhelming Conservative

[AlanFromWichita]

 

[PRmerger]

I believe the people writing the scripture were inspired.

Right. And out of the 400 early Christian texts the Church discerned 27 of them to be theopneustos.

So you are giving tacit authority to the Catholic Church to declare “Thus says the Lord.”

What I can’t understand, then, is why you believe the Church when she declares that God said, “We are made in the image and likeness of God” (something no other ideology had even dared to consider), but in all other aspects are proclaiming your deep suspicion regarding when the Church says, “Thus says the Lord.”

I do not believe it is dictation from God, but was subject to the authors converting the inspiration into words according to their own culture and experience.

Non-sequitur, but right. That’s why we need the Church to give us guidance “to help all the faithful to approach these passages through an interpretation which enables their meaning to emerge in the light of the mystery of Christ.”–Pope B16.

As the Holy Father says: “…it must be remembered first and foremost that biblical revelation is deeply rooted in history.”

 

[PRmerger]

Actually one’s words are excellent indicators of spiritual state. Of course a person can attempt to deceive but usually their words give them away. The words give us away because as James 3 tells us, no one can tame the tongue.

Just curious, Alan, if you believe that a couple’s words are an excellent indicator of one’s marital relationship? Or, to extend the metaphor a bit…do you believe that you can look at a couple’s actions and that would be an excellent indicator of their marital state?

One would think that your paradigm ought to be applied to marital relationships, too.

Now, I happen to know quite a few couples–and I’m betting that you do, too–that were we to judge by their words and actions, we would proclaim “We have excellent indicators that their marital relationship is healthy and thriving!”

And yet, we learn later that this couple is divorcing.

The marital relationship is a private one, just like one’s spiritual relationship.

One ought not be proclaiming that anyone’s words be an “excellent indicator” of anything except, well, whether the person is eloquent and articulate.

 

[PRmerger]

IAnd I refuse to engage in idolatry.
Alan

You have mentioned this word quite a few times, and I am puzzled by your reference to it in the context of our dialogue.

Could you be more specific about why you keep bringing this up? What exactly do you find idolatrous as it applies to our conversation?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Just curious, Alan, if you believe that a couple’s words are an excellent indicator of one’s marital relationship? Or, to extend the metaphor a bit…do you believe that you can look at a couple’s actions and that would be an excellent indicator of their marital state?

One would think that your paradigm ought to be applied to marital relationships, too.

Sure they can. We have words describing marital relationships every day here at CAF.

Now, I happen to know quite a few couples–and I’m betting that you do, too–that were we to judge by their words and actions, we would proclaim “We have excellent indicators that their marital relationship is healthy and thriving!”

And yet, we learn later that this couple is divorcing.

I’m sorry to hear about them.

The marital relationship is a private one, just like one’s spiritual relationship.

Spiritual relationship with whom? We are supposed to treat one another like Jesus Himself. That means we are to have a loving, spiritual relationship with every person in the Body of Christ, right? Even the ones we don’t know yet, through faith?

One ought not be proclaiming that anyone’s words be an “excellent indicator” of anything except, well, whether the person is eloquent and articulate.

By your words I would say that it’s very important to you that others buy into your words to describe their actions. Kind of like going to McDonalds and ordering Chicken Nuggets and they correct you, “I’m sorry sir we only have Chicken McNuggets here.” Say it your way or the conversation will continue.

Am I wrong?

Alan

 

[Elizabeth502]

Spiritual relationship with whom? We are supposed to treat one another like Jesus Himself. That means we are to have a loving, spiritual relationship with every person in the Body of Christ, right? Even the ones we don’t know yet, through faith?

I’m going to break in here, only because Alan has also discussed with me the so-called ‘indicators’ of words. PR echoed my own statement that one’s spiritual relationship (with God) is a private one. That is true, by the way, even if one has a spiritual director. To an extent, depending on the honesty of and accurate use of words by the directee, the director might know quite a bit about that person’s spiritual journey, but the director will only know as much as about that journey as the directee shares. And I stress the word about. The spiritual journey cannot be reduced to words, because one’s relationship with God is more non-rational than anything else. (And this is also true of intimate personal relationships, even if not marital, but long-standing friends, or relatives.) Words fail to convey relationships in their complexity, dynamism, and change effect. That’s why artistic expression sometimes captures it better (poetry, visual art, etc.). And even then can be a weak representation.

It’s pretty cagey to switch the subject, Alan. You are the one who for pages (here and on other threads) is enamored with the idea of “mystical relationship” (with God). That has been the context of most of your statements on this thread, including all your recent posts. You have asserted that someone else’s “spiritual journey” is knowable by someone on the outside of that journey, and you have contextualized that as the individual dimension of that journey (God to person).

Naturally our spiritual journey also can be evidenced by our relations with others (“By their fruits you will know them”). But your focus has not been that – certainly not in terms of how you assert that words (explanations and positions) are “indicators.” Not if they’re merely explaining and clarifying moral theology they aren’t. They are not indicators of how that person applies that theology in his or her personal life ("treats others,’ etc.).

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It’s pretty cagey to switch the subject, Alan. You are the one who for pages (here and on other threads) is enamored with the idea of “mystical relationship” (with God). That has been the context of most of your statements on this thread, including all your recent posts. You have asserted that someone else’s “spiritual journey” is knowable by someone on the outside of that journey, and you have contextualized that as the individual dimension of that journey (God to person).

Naturally our spiritual journey also can be evidenced by our relations with others (“By their fruits you will know them”). But your focus has not been that – certainly not in terms of how you assert that words (explanations and positions) are “indicators.” Not if they’re merely explaining and clarifying moral theology they aren’t. They are not indicators of how that person applies that theology in his or her personal life ("treats others,’ etc.).

So I suggest one might get hints as to another’s spiritual maturity through their words. You are right; it includes their deeds. But on this forum, all I have to go by is words. I can guess, and of course I can’t know.

You have given me credit for making claims I do not make. I do not believe I can “know” someone’s spiritual journey. But if they post with condescension, judgment, blame, jumping to conclusions, refusing to take down straw man arguments, saying they shouldn’t call themselves Catholic, and the like, then I have enough information I can place bets … and so far it turns out that I have never seen a poster who self-describes as contemplative or at least regularly practices contemplative prayer (which like I said the CCC says Catholics SHOULD do) and posts that way. That’s all. And yes I do ask. Do you practice contemplative prayer forms? If you don’t you’re missing out on an transformational experience that brings us to true union with Jesus’s mystery, and that the Church says you should have. And if you don’t, but profess to follow Church teachings 100% then I trust you will correct that.

Alan

 

[PRmerger]

Sure they can. We have words describing marital relationships every day here at CAF.

So you’re saying that you can tell how good a marital relationship is by the words they use.

Yes? That’s what you’re proclaiming.

I just want to be sure that I’m understanding you correctly here, Alan.

Because you’re saying that the words someone uses give “excellent indicators of spiritual state” and also acknowledging in the above comment that they are also “excellent indicators of” marital relationships, yes?

You’re sure you don’t want to retract?

 

[PRmerger]

By your words I would say that it’s very important to you that others buy into your words to describe their actions. Kind of like going to McDonalds and ordering Chicken Nuggets and they correct you, “I’m sorry sir we only have Chicken McNuggets here.” Say it your way or the conversation will continue.

Am I wrong?

Alan

No, you are correct that words are important.

But you are incorrect when you say that words are an “excellent indicator” of one’s spiritual state.

You have no idea.

Just like you have no idea, even when a couple’s words are all lovey-dovey to each other, what their marital state is.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

So you’re saying that you can tell how good a marital relationship is by the words they use.

Yes? That’s what you’re proclaiming.

I just want to be sure that I’m understanding you correctly here, Alan.

Because you’re saying that the words someone uses give “excellent indicators of spiritual state” and also acknowledging in the above comment that they are also “excellent indicators of” marital relationships, yes?

You’re sure you don’t want to retract?

HECK NO I’m not going to retract. People come here and share their most intimate details on Internet, and you’re saying we don’t know anything about them? I guess if they are just phony posters posing as someone else that would be the case, and I suppose there are a few from time to time. But I’m guessing most of the time it is sincere.

People reveal more private details about their marital life every day on these forums than most counselors hear in a month. They explain in excruciating detail things that they don’t even discuss with each other in or about the bedroom. So they use words to intentionally reveal their relationship so they can discuss it. They also reveal a lot about the attitude of the poster to the spouse, by the way they choose words and structure their statements.

How about these two ways for a person to self-describe:

a. “My DH and I are trying to work out a scheduling conflict we have on Wednesday evenings.”

compared with

b. “Every week my husband goes out partying with his friends. Every Wednesday, they get slobbering drunk and then drive to a noisy bar where there are disgusting women all around us, and he doesn’t care about my feelings at all. And he leaves me without a car so I can’t get to my altar society meeting. Then he’s hungover on Thursday and I’m telling you if he doesn’t straighten up, I’m done with him.”

Do these not give you a slightly different picture? One a simple, neutral-tone statement about a schedule conflict, the other a picture of totally messed up feelings and behavior. Oh yes, it may all be a lie – but then again maybe I am too and I’m just messing with your mind and practicing my troll procedures.

Let me try an easier one:

c. “my dh gets so distracted in the mornings that sometimes he even forgets to shave before he comes to breakfast.”

compared with

d. “my husband doesn’t care about his looks even though I’ve told him 100 times that I hate seeing him at breakfast until he’s cleaned up.”

Do you not see that the wording, in addition to what is being said, gives us clues about their relationship? And thereby helps other posters know how to approach it? If you can’t see that then just drop this issue because I don’t think I can explain it any more clearly.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

No, you are correct that words are important.

But you are incorrect when you say that words are an “excellent indicator” of one’s spiritual state.

You have no idea.

Just like you have no idea, even when a couple’s words are all lovey-dovey to each other, what their marital state is.

Yes it is true that every person in this forum could be a liar and a fraud. I have no conclusive evidence that you’re human and not just a bot programmed to get me to pull my hair out.

No, I can NEVER know anything conclusively about someone from their posts. You may be an ax murderer and have killed all of your children, and I wouldn’t know by your posts. I don’t you even have a family. I suspect you are actually a frustrated old man, alienated by family, friends, and church, just trying to pretend he’s a woman with some daughters who goes to Mass faithfully. Gosh, if you get down to brass tacks, I have no way to conclude you’ve ever even seen the inside of a Catholic Church because after all how can I know anything about you from what you type? Or you may be somebody my wife hired to test my patience with arguments that are basically repeating the same phrase over and over until hopefully I buy into it. Then you’re going to report back to her with suggested nagging techniques. This could very well be true because she doesn’t know how to nag now but she’s been getting better in the last few weeks.

And don’t tell me I’m too “far out.” You are the one making absolutists statements about not being able to tell anything about other posters and their spiritual or marital states. Well unless they’re like this scenario we can tell a whole lot about them. And if we are wrong and somehow “accidentally” insult them with our presumptions, that’s too bad because they lied. So what is it? Do people reveal truth about themselves, or are these forums limited only to lies and make-believe?

Not only that, you read personal traits into what I say, and misstate what I say to further the argument. I don’t know if that’s the intent, but it’s the result.

I don’t think you have any idea how you’re coming across because if you knew how I felt and cared, you would not do it this way. From my perspective, I think it boils down to, you are the expert, the mother, the woman, the more-Catholic, and I am … not. And I have no idea what I’m talking about because you know me better than I do, and have better words to describe. So don’t believe me.

Oh wait, but we can’t tell anything about other posters. I forgot. I guess you don’t know anything about me. Nor me, you.

Alan

 

[PRmerger]

Yes it is true that every person in this forum could be a liar and a fraud. I have no conclusive evidence that you’re human and not just a bot programmed to get me to pull my hair out.

No, I can NEVER know anything conclusively about someone from their posts. You may be an ax murderer and have killed all of your children, and I wouldn’t know by your posts. I don’t you even have a family. I suspect you are actually a frustrated old man, alienated by family, friends, and church, just trying to pretend he’s a woman with some daughters who goes to Mass faithfully. Gosh, if you get down to brass tacks, I have no way to conclude you’ve ever even seen the inside of a Catholic Church because after all how can I know anything about you from what you type? Or you may be somebody my wife hired to test my patience with arguments that are basically repeating the same phrase over and over until hopefully I buy into it. Then you’re going to report back to her with suggested nagging techniques. This could very well be true because she doesn’t know how to nag now but she’s been getting better in the last few weeks.

And don’t tell me I’m too “far out.” You are the one making absolutists statements about not being able to tell anything about other posters and their spiritual or marital states. Well unless they’re like this scenario we can tell a whole lot about them. And if we are wrong and somehow “accidentally” insult them with our presumptions, that’s too bad because they lied. So what is it? Do people reveal truth about themselves, or are these forums limited only to lies and make-believe?

Not only that, you read personal traits into what I say, and misstate what I say to further the argument. I don’t know if that’s the intent, but it’s the result.

I don’t think you have any idea how you’re coming across because if you knew how I felt and cared, you would not do it this way. From my perspective, I think it boils down to, you are the expert, the mother, the woman, the more-Catholic, and I am … not. And I have no idea what I’m talking about because you know me better than I do, and have better words to describe. So don’t believe me.

Oh wait, but we can’t tell anything about other posters. I forgot. I guess you don’t know anything about me. Nor me, you.

Alan

Methinks you’ve switched your argument a bit, Alan.

No one is saying you can’t know “anything about” a poster, from his posts. I know that you’re a good guy with a good sense of humor, with a great love of the Lord, who tries to be fair, just from reading your posts.

What we’re saying is that you can’t judge how good of a spirituality someone has from reading his posts here.

You stated that you can, indeed, know this because their words are “excellent indicators” of such.

Nope.

 

[PRmerger]

And don’t tell me I’m too “far out.” You are the one making absolutists statements about not being able to tell anything about other posters and their spiritual or marital states. Well unless they’re like this scenario we can tell a whole lot about them. And if we are wrong and somehow “accidentally” insult them with our presumptions, that’s too bad because they lied. So what is it? Do people reveal truth about themselves, or are these forums limited only to lies and make-believe?

Let’s just apply your arguments to the marriage analogy.

You have stated that words are an “excellent indicator” of one’s state.

Again, are you telling me that you can tell how good someone’s marriage is by their words? (And I’ll even be generous and add: by their actions, as well.)

Yes, or no?

And just so we’re clear, again: no one is stating we can’t know anything about someone’s marriage, or about posters here.

What we are proclaiming is that this comment you made…

IActually one’s words are excellent indicators of spiritual state. Of course a person can attempt to deceive but usually their words give them away. The words give us away because as James 3 tells us, no one can tame the tongue.

[snip]

The style of writing and content is absolutely an indicator of where somebody is on the spiritual journey, and once we read a person’s words, we are no longer strangers but acquaintences. How accurate an indicator depends on the skill of the person reading, and the honesty level of the posts.

Alan

…regarding one’s “spiritual journey” is false.

You have no idea.*

Just like you have no idea regarding a couple’s marriage.

*Not to be taken literally, of course. It’s a turn of phrase meaning, “One cannot really know”.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

What we’re saying is that you can’t judge how good of a spirituality someone has from reading his posts here.

I totally believe that you can’t judge how good of a spirituality someone has from reading his posts here.

You stated that you can, indeed, know this because their words are “excellent indicators” of such.

They are only excellent indicators to those who are sensitive, apparently. Maybe I’m just “tuned in,” eh? I rest my case. I’m ready for the jury to decide. Prison sounds pretty nice about now.

And You have no idea. bwahaha I live in the Land of Pure Imagination.

edit: here’s my offer. Let’s say that there are things we can estimate with reasonable chance of being right, and things we can’t. For example, from the way a man tells about a problem with his wife, we may feel confident that he’s framing the argument in a way that diminishes her point of view. That does not mean that he doesn’t care about her point of view. So knowing what we don’t know is also important. PR, if you can sign off on that, maybe we can bury this thing.

Next time you can do the “comprimising.”

Alan

 

[atheistgirl]

Or you may be somebody my wife hired to test my patience with arguments that are basically repeating the same phrase over and over until hopefully I buy into it.

Aw heck! Carrot juice everywhere

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

I totally believe that you can’t judge how good of a spirituality someone has from reading his posts here.

Okay.

Let’s see you put your $$ where your mouth is.

Tell me what you know of my spirituality from my posts here.

 

[PRmerger]

edit: here’s my offer. Let’s say that there are things we can estimate with reasonable chance of being right, and things we can’t. For example, from the way a man tells about a problem with his wife, we may feel confident that he’s framing the argument in a way that diminishes her point of view. That does not mean that he doesn’t care about her point of view. So knowing what we don’t know is also important. PR, if you can sign off on that, maybe we can bury this thing.

Next time you can do the “comprimising.”

Alan

I will take that offer and up you one challenge.

You tell me how good of a spirituality I have, what your thoughts are on my relationship with God, with others, and then I’ll take you up on the offer above.

How’s that?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I totally believe that you can’t judge how good of a spirituality someone has from reading his posts here.

Nor can you tell how “open” a person is – spiritually – from how that person answers an Apologetics question which calls for an actual, definitive answer (and which has an answer, as opposed to a million “open” answers).

Different modes of knowing.
Different modes of understanding.
Different modes of synthesizing.
Different modes of expression.
Different realms.

A moral theology answer, to a question about specific behaviors, is not a prayer life. Nor is it a sacramental life. Nor is it “a spiritual journey.” Nor is it mysticism. Nor is it a description of one’s own moral behavior. (Because I know how I am commanded to behave does not mean that I am complying with those divine commands.)

The reverse is also true. If I can honestly claim that I am mostly tolerant & compassionate in my dealings with those who violate most of what we would consider divine commands and Church guidance on leading a morally upright life, does not mean that I am restricted from asserting the truth of those commands to others (when asked).

We are to lead and model by behavior, and secondarily by speech. When a question is asked (such as on CAF), there is a requirement to be accurate & honest when an answer is available, as opposed to being noncommittal out of misplaced concern “not to judge.” (The judgment is intellectual, not personal.)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Nor can you tell how “open” a person is – spiritually – from how that person answers an Apologetics question which calls for an actual, definitive answer (and which has an answer, as opposed to a million “open” answers).

Different modes of knowing.
Different modes of understanding.
Different modes of synthesizing.
Different modes of expression.
Different realms.

A moral theology answer, to a question about specific behaviors, is not a prayer life. Nor is it a sacramental life. Nor is it “a spiritual journey.” Nor is it mysticism. Nor is it a description of one’s own moral behavior. (Because I know how I am commanded to behave does not mean that I am complying with those divine commands.)

The reverse is also true. If I can honestly claim that I am mostly tolerant & compassionate in my dealings with those who violate most of what we would consider divine commands and Church guidance on leading a morally upright life, does not mean that I am restricted from asserting the truth of those commands to others (when asked).

We are to lead and model by behavior, and secondarily by speech. When a question is asked (such as on CAF), there is a requirement to be accurate & honest when an answer is available, as opposed to being noncommittal out of misplaced concern “not to judge.” (The judgment is intellectual, not personal.)

To the degree I understand you, I think I agree with most of this. It isn’t so much about their moral behavior or what they profess based on their moral theology, that I think I can tell anything. I see people of all apparent “attitudes” on both sides of many issues, over my time posting.

The spirituality aspect of it, though, leaks through to at least some degree and gives clues. For example, the person may have a pattern of blaming or avoiding responsibility just in how they describe the situation. Or they may repeatedly make judgmental statements. Or they may deny truth without logical explanation, or they may express fear or scrupulosity in the way they describe things. There are entire fields of science dealing with these types of subtle or even subconscious communications.

Also I think many of us who have overcome severe mental illness are more sensitive to nuances in the way people express non-verbally. That’s because when you’re crazy they neither listen nor speak honestly (“they” being typical hospital psycho personnel) so if you want to figure out how to keep them from restraining you, you have to read between the lines. And they’ll say one thing and then the opposite ten minutes later – you have to know which way to roll without their clear instructions.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I will take that offer and up you one challenge.

You tell me how good of a spirituality I have, what your thoughts are on my relationship with God, with others, and then I’ll take you up on the offer above.

How’s that?

Is this like parlor tricks?

As far as I’m concerned, my relationship with God is no more or no less than my relationship with other people. Because if I don’t love other people, then I can’t love God. If I don’t love God, then I cannot truly love other people. Whatsoever you do, and all that. So unless you tell me specifically, I look for clues in the way you treat me and other posters, both on your side and against.

First I see you as very sensitive to subtle clues in the attitudes of other posters, but I don’t think you’re as sensitive to those same clues in your own. Because I feel a little condescension, and.I feel that you want to control the conversation, making it harder for me to make my point using my own words and thoughts. Note that doesn’t mean I’m saying you are condescending, but your posting style is such that I felt a similar feeling upon reading.

You spent a lot of time trying to get me to accept your statements, rather than exploring mine and testing out any of the vocabulary or points of view I was throwing out. I don’t think you were doing this intentionally, because you seem very sincere and honest and that you really want to know how I feel. But the problem is that when I try to tell you, on your turf and under your rules, it can spoil what I want to say or even distract me from it entirely, and it becomes almost a teacher-student relationship instead of brother to sister.

I do think you are very careful not to blame and cast guilt, and I really appreciate that. I also think you are fair about rewording something when it connotes something you may not have intended. You also get back up from a fall very quickly without holding an apparent grudge, so that’s another Good Thing. Your memory of other posters’ posting history is borderline creepy, but I take that to indicate you have a mind that likes to keep track of other people. I admire that because I’m lacking that in myself. I’m really bad at remembering names and faces and personal details of others, and I’m guessing – tell me if I’m right – that you are good at that.

What does that mean spiritually? Hard to tell. Could pride or fear be involved in the controlling aspect? I don’t know. You really don’t reveal much about yourself other than your officially stated beliefs. But I do think you are very genuine in your quest to live your life in accordance with your beliefs, and not to get sidetracked from your goals.

I’d like to see you “let your hair down” so to speak, take off your shoes and socks,roll up the cuffs, and go wading on the beach and let the water circle your ankles and the wind blow gently as you share the moment alone or with any of your loved ones. If I could I’d wish you into a vacation at a nice resort. Or is that your style?

Alan