Why are we dividing ourselves?

[elt1956]

That is your opinion. You are not comfortable using that terminology. I am.

Catholics know that is not official. Only the Church can make it official. I still believe it is appropriate to oppose enemies of the faith. I got no hangups on calling enemies of Christ what they are, which is heretics. It’s a common word.

I have been mentored by two terrific traditional Catholic priests. (in good standing) and by a great traditionalist lay man who was a professor of Philosophy.

These men had no problem calling other priests, theologians, and dispicable men, heretics. These giants were alot tougher, harsher, than I am. I have been blessed to have learn alot from them and they taught me well.

By the way, there is a mainstream Catholic priest on EWTN, Fr. John Corapi. He is the same vein as I and many traditional Catholics. Try listening to his “venom”.

The Church has stated that those who first broke away from the Catholic Church ie. Luther, Mather etc. are the heretics. Those of other Christian Faiths following what they have been taught from then on are not to be considered heretics. Priests, theologians etc. who have known the truth, but teach against it, I am sure are called heretics.

You should try to get rid of the venom. There is good in ALL people. Pope John Paul II stated in one of his encyclicals that although we have been taught that any outside the true church has no hope of Salvation, we must re-think what we mean by CHURCH. He states all Christian Churches have a measure of the truth and that in this truth all Christian faiths are united with the Roman Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore receive a measure of graces. Now if you state that John Paul II is a heretic, I will know who has mentored you and on which aisle of the truth you stand.

 

[JustaServant]

What is going on here? Why do we war amongst ourselves? I understand why followers of SSPX criticize those who prefer the OF–they hold it to be intrinsically evil, which those in communion with Rome cannot hold. But why are the rest of us fighting each other based on such a thing as “Mass preferance?”

Saints help us! We are brothers and sisters! Why do we tear one another, as it were tearing the Body of Christ?

I wonder if they realize how this looks to new Catholics?

 

[elt1956]

I wonder if they realize how this looks to new Catholics?

Or how it looks to the “passing by” Protestant looking for a Faith to believe in?

 

[JustaServant]

Or how it looks to the “passing by” Protestant looking for a Faith to believe in?

There are fundamentalists in every group.

 

[MelanieAnne]

There are fundamentalists in every group.

And within fundamentalists there are nearly always some who misguidedly believe that it is their God-given mission to use their new-found wisdom as a club against others who, in their opinion, somehow fall short.

 

[saint_rafael]

we must re-think what we mean by CHURCH. He states all Christian Churches have a measure of the truth and that in this truth all Christian faiths are united with the Roman Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ and therefore receive a measure of graces. Now if you state that John Paul II is a heretic, I will know who has mentored you and on which aisle of the truth you stand.

That is an error. Pope John Paul II was everything to everyone and he himself has caused much confusion.
He made many errors.

There are partial truths in other religions, but it is a heresy to state that false churches are united to the Catholic Church in the mystical body of Christ with graces.

If you look at the Magisterium of the Church, The infallible teaching is that the Catholic Church ALONE is the mystical body of Christ. The Church ALONE has the holy spirit with the all graces.

Pope John Paul II misguidedly, has allowed to exist, Rahner’s Anonymous Christianity. It is Rahner who has infected the Church with his nonsense.

 

[catharina]

That is an error. Pope John Paul II was everything to everyone and he himself has caused much confusion.
He made many errors.

There are partial truths in other religions, but it is a heresy to state that false churches are united to the Catholic Church in the mystical body of Christ with graces.

If you look at the Magisterium of the Church, The infallible teaching is that the Catholic Church ALONE is the mystical body of Christ. The Church ALONE has the holy spirit with the all graces.

Pope John Paul II misguidedly, has allowed to exist, Rahner’s Anonymous Christianity. It is Rahner who has infected the Church with his nonsense.

Speaking of error (as you were) do you realize at all how bizarre it is that you write Holy Spirit as holy spirit? Who taught you indeed? Magesterium is Magesterium? Holy Spirit is holy spirit?

Spare us, O Lord.

 

[whatevergirl]

That is an error. Pope John Paul II was everything to everyone and he himself has caused much confusion.
He made many errors.

There are partial truths in other religions, but it is a heresy to state that false churches are united to the Catholic Church in the mystical body of Christ with graces.

If you look at the Magisterium of the Church, The infallible teaching is that the Catholic Church ALONE is the mystical body of Christ. The Church ALONE has the holy spirit with the all graces.

Pope John Paul II misguidedly, has allowed to exist, Rahner’s Anonymous Christianity. It is Rahner who has infected the Church with his nonsense.

I’m not sure we are in a place to determine if Pope JP2 made errors or not. Isn’t a Pope supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt…the Holy Spirit guiding this person as Pope? I sometimes wonder what non Catholics think when we as Catholics find our own popes to be ‘in error.’ How can we be convincing to others, when we believe our own popes taught errors? Pope JP2 seemed to be filled with Christ…His light literally seemed to illuminate him. He was one of our greatest Church leaders and I feel badly when fellow Catholics believed him to be teaching errors.

 

[catharina]

That is an error. Pope John Paul II was everything to everyone and he himself has caused much confusion.
He made many errors.

There are partial truths in other religions, but it is a heresy to state that false churches are united to the Catholic Church in the mystical body of Christ with graces.

If you look at the Magisterium of the Church, The infallible teaching is that the Catholic Church ALONE is the mystical body of Christ. The Church ALONE has the holy spirit with the all graces.

Pope John Paul II misguidedly, has allowed to exist, Rahner’s Anonymous Christianity. It is Rahner who has infected the Church with his nonsense.

Glancing at a few other of your posts (other threads) I see that you call the Mass, the mass. What’s up with you? You capitalize the name of every Marian apparition but don’t do the same for God the Holy Spirit or for the Mass? Big yucky.

You must be a part of some very NEW “tradition.”

 

[whatevergirl]

Didn’t the Pharisees feel that Christ was misguided, and teaching falsely? Our Popes deserve our respect…not judgement and criticism. Especially Pope JP2.

consumedconvert–I applaud you starting this thread…it’s been interesting reading. (and I agree that we are becoming divided within our Church)

We should all take personal inventory on if we are finding so much fault with our Church, that we are not able to find anything else.

 

[saint_rafael]

Glancing at a few other of your posts (other threads) I see that you call the Mass, the mass. What’s up with you? You capitalize the name of every Marian apparition but don’t do the same for God the Holy Spirit or for the Mass? Big yucky.

You must be a part of some very NEW “tradition.”

I normally capitalize Holy Spirit and Mass. I was writing in a hurry.

 

[saint_rafael]

I’m not sure we are in a place to determine if Pope JP2 made errors or not. Isn’t a Pope supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt…the Holy Spirit guiding this person as Pope? I sometimes wonder what non Catholics think when we as Catholics find our own popes to be ‘in error.’ How can we be convincing to others, when we believe our own popes taught errors? Pope JP2 seemed to be filled with Christ…His light literally seemed to illuminate him. He was one of our greatest Church leaders and I feel badly when fellow Catholics believed him to be teaching errors.

The Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, but he is only infallible when he speaks Ex Cathedra. The Pope is a normal man and has free will. He can use his free will for good or bad, truth or error.

It is simple. You know a Pope is teaching error when you compare him to what the infallible Magisterium of the Church has taught for 2,000 years. Usually a Pope teaches the same, but when a Pope is in contradiction with the Magisterium he is wrong and is teaching error.

 

[catharina]

I normally capitalize Holy Spirit and Mass. I was writing in a hurry.

I can’t even imagine being in that much of “a hurry.”

 

[whatevergirl]

The Pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, but he is only infallible when he speaks Ex Cathedra. The Pope is a normal man and has free will. He can use his free will for good or bad, truth or error.

It is simple. You know a Pope is teaching error when you compare him to what the infallible Magisterium of the Church has taught for 2,000 years. Usually a Pope teaches the same, but when a Pope is in contradiction with the Magisterium he is wrong and is teaching error.

In scrolling up a few posts…let’s use that as an example. Do you not feel that all ‘churches’ are blessed by God…to some degree? Is the error, in your opinion, that he shouldn’t have said that all Christians receive a certain measure of graces, despite those who are not ‘one’ with the RCC? (I’m using elt’s quotes above)

 

[saint_rafael]

In scrolling up a few posts…let’s use that as an example. Do you not feel that all ‘churches’ are blessed by God…to some degree? Is the error, in your opinion, that he shouldn’t have said that all Christians receive a certain measure of graces, despite those who are not ‘one’ with the RCC? (I’m using elt’s quotes above)

No. God despises all religions except Roman Catholicism. We should be trying to get these people out of the false religions and false churches and into the one true Church.

The error is stating that the false churches recieve any measure of grace. They cannot. God might want to give certain individuals graces, but they cannot get them from a false church.

In an earlier post, it was stated that Pope John Paul II believed in the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church and that other churches are also the mystical body. That is a contradiction. Either there is no salvation or there are graces in false churches. The Church has already declared the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church as infallible for the last 2,000 years.

 

[Conservative]

Good question, ConsumedConvert -
I just posted something elsewhere - lost my cool - and couldn’t unpost it in time.

I guess it’s difficult to reach the point where changes have pushed us to researching Canon Law (particularly, those of us who are neither theologians or clerics). In the research, we’re pondering what we read. I know the first time I read “anethema” it scared me silly. I didn’t want to disobey a current Pope but I didn’t want to disobey the dictates of a previous one, which actions might result in anethema. (Please, don’t anyone ask me to supply quotes/details. I’m too frustrated from another post!)

It’s not that we want to be divided - we’re coming to different conclusions based on what many of us have researched through the years - and trying to convince others that what we believe is correct or more correct. Maybe that’s part of what I’ve heard would be confusion in the end times. (Again, not an exact quote.) Is this the “Mass” confusion?

 

[LilyM]

No. God despises all religions except Roman Catholicism. We should be trying to get these people out of the false religions and false churches and into the one true Church.

The error is stating that the false churches recieve any measure of grace. They cannot. God might want to give certain individuals graces, but they cannot get them from a false church.

In an earlier post, it was stated that Pope John Paul II believed in the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church and that other churches are also the mystical body. That is a contradiction. Either there is no salvation or there are graces in false churches. The Church has already declared the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church as infallible for the last 2,000 years.

"John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”

Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward. " (Mark 9:38-41)

Yup, really sounds like God despises non-Catholic religions right there.

 

[consumedconvert]

Good question, ConsumedConvert -
I just posted something elsewhere - lost my cool - and couldn’t unpost it in time.

I guess it’s difficult to reach the point where changes have pushed us to researching Canon Law (particularly, those of us who are neither theologians or clerics). In the research, we’re pondering what we read. I know the first time I read “anethema” it scared me silly. I didn’t want to disobey a current Pope but I didn’t want to disobey the dictates of a previous one, which actions might result in anethema. (Please, don’t anyone ask me to supply quotes/details. I’m too frustrated from another post!)

It’s not that we want to be divided - we’re coming to different conclusions based on what many of us have researched through the years - and trying to convince others that what we believe is correct or more correct. Maybe that’s part of what I’ve heard would be confusion in the end times. (Again, not an exact quote.) Is this the “Mass” confusion?

Thank you for the response.

But it seems the pertinent question is just exactly who has the authority to interpret and apply Canon Law? Is it not the legislator, according to one of the preliminary canons (is it 17?) And isn’t the Holy See the legislator? It seems then that what many are attempting to do is to condemn the Holy See’s actions based on a law code promulgated by the Holy See, when the Holy See is the stated chief interpreter of that law and chief judge, according to that law. Rather circular, it seems.

And, in response to good ole’ Raph…

Who exactly has the authority to interpret whether what the pope says is in conflict with what other popes have said? Are there not apparent “conflicts” which are actually in unity?

The doctrine of the Trinity once seemed to some in direct conflict with the doctrine of the Unity of God. But it wasn’t, of course, and isn’t. I would suppose their were those who appealed to the older Revealed Truth–Unity–against the newly understood Truth–the Trinity. It ought to make one pause.

God Bless,

CC

 

[ethelzguy]

There are fundamentalists in every group.

Just as there are extremists.

 

[whatevergirl]

No. God despises all religions except Roman Catholicism. We should be trying to get these people out of the false religions and false churches and into the one true Church.

The error is stating that the false churches recieve any measure of grace. They cannot. God might want to give certain individuals graces, but they cannot get them from a false church.

In an earlier post, it was stated that Pope John Paul II believed in the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church and that other churches are also the mystical body. That is a contradiction. Either there is no salvation or there are graces in false churches. The Church has already declared the doctrine of no salvation outside the Church as infallible for the last 2,000 years.

Thank you for replying. I read a lot of Pope JP2’s works, I always thought he believed salvation could occur if one was not Catholic. I personally think that many of us will be surprised as to who might be in heaven, when we arrive. I don’t believe that only Catholics go to heaven…I believe that people who have heard the Gospel, and refuse to follow Christ–they could be hindering their salvation. There are many people who have never heard the Good News, however–and of course, they cannot be held responsible. Jesus Himself said…‘I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6), no one comes to the Father, except through Me.’ This was long before the Catholic faith was officially established. I don’t think that we could ever presume, as humans, to say…this one or that one is or is not going to heaven. Scripture gives us a lot to go on, but I don’t believe that only Catholics will see paradise. Simply put, God is all merciful–it is His call, even if that person on his/her deathbed suddenly embraces Christ…and asks the Father for forgiveness. I believe that as Catholics, we have a duty to evangelize to our brothers and sisters, and bring them into the unity with the Church. I just don’t think that we can, as humans, presume who will enter heaven with 100 % certainty.

It states in the Bible that it would actually be worse to be lukewarm, than not believe at all. I think it might be better to be a devout Lutheran, than a lukewarm Catholic. We need to do our best to move out of Christ’s way each day, and let Him work through us…and ask Him to help us to be instruments of His peace love, and mercy…so this moves others to Him. It’s not my job to figure out who will be going to heaven or not.