Why are we going back to a Latin Mass?

[brotherhrolf]

Read the thread entitled Heretic Hour at the Local Church. That should give you a clue.

The Holy Father desperately hopes, I would assume, that the Pauline Rite Mass, which has suffered horrendous abuses in the past forty years will benefit from the laity being once again exposed to the Traditional Mass.

It pretty obvious that the perpetrators of the abuses will not stop until either the Bishops stop them, that is when they are not directly involved in them or when the laity stops going to these abominations.

So lets hope for the best.

And then the Holy Father might just be empowering those of us who grew up with the TLM as Mass and had the rug ripped out from underneath our feet back in the late 60s. We remember what it was like. God bless the young people for their zeal but we remember. If we go, who will acurately remember?

 

[James0235]

This is basically my POV, except I’m not sure how people like me would learn the Latin responses and prayers if we did not practice them on a regular basis, which would mean attending Latin or L/V Mass. I’m telling ya, I forget something by the time I walk out the door unless I repeat it constantly, and even then, I have to check the cheat sheet to remember!

Vatican II had this to say:
In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be alloted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to readings and the “common prayer,” but also, as local condition may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this constitution. Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. And whenever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this constitution is to be observed. -Sacrosanctum Concilium 54

Notice especially the part in Red.

The only way people are going to learn the responses in Latin is if more parishes start using a little Latin. It really wouldn’t be terribly difficult.

The majority of the Mass could remain in the vernacular with enough Latin used for the people to become familiar with that particular part.

For example instead of “The Lord be with you. And also with you” a parish could start using “Dominus Vobisum. Et cum spiritu tuo” for awhile. That does not mean that the readings or the EP need to be in Latin.

Eventually the Gloria or maybe the Creed could be sung in Latin. Maybe just once a month. And so on.

Eventually the people would learn the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin. It does not mean giving up the vernacular. And it would go a long way towards fulfilling the desires of the Fathers of the 2nd Vatican Council.

James

 

[brotherhrolf]

The NO may have been intended to have been said in Latin (Gosh, EWTN’s NO Mass on All Saints Day in Latin was a sterling example).

It’s not the way it happened. Starting in 1966 various parts of the Mass went from Latin to English. Announcements were made from the pulpit. At first it was the TLM translated into English - that was early on, I have a St. Joseph’s Missal from 1966.

It was relentless and quick. The Mass was never, never said in Latin. It was an inexeorable transition to the vernacular and it was pretty well accomplished by 1968. It is a myth and a fabrication that we transitioned to the NO on the First Sunday of Advent in 1969. It is FICTION. There was no NO in Latin. Never.

We’re not going back to a Latin Mass, we are simply implementing that which should have been implemented in the late 60s.

 

[Phemie]

The NO may have been intended to have been said in Latin (Gosh, EWTN’s NO Mass on All Saints Day in Latin was a sterling example).

It’s not the way it happened. Starting in 1966 various parts of the Mass went from Latin to English. Announcements were made from the pulpit. At first it was the TLM translated into English - that was early on, I have a St. Joseph’s Missal from 1966.

While the Mass back then was not the Mass we have now, IIRC, it was also different from the TLM (extraordinary form).

It was relentless and quick. The Mass was never, never said in Latin. It was an inexeorable transition to the vernacular and it was pretty well accomplished by 1968. It is a myth and a fabrication that we transitioned to the NO on the First Sunday of Advent in 1969. It is FICTION. There was no NO in Latin. Never.

**I remember vividly the day we started giving responses at Mass – for me it was either late 64 or early 65. I know I was in grade 6 because I remember the grade 7 teacher, a sister, training us to give the responses and my mother’s embarrassment because I was the loudest voice in the church on the day in question – I was trying to lead the congregation because they weren’t doing it the way we’d been taught every day for a month.

But just because that was our experience, does it mean that the NO wasn’t celebrated in Latin elsewhere?**

We’re not going back to a Latin Mass, we are simply implementing that which should have been implemented in the late 60s.

Not really, we’ve been given the permission to celebrate the Mass as it was BEFORE the Vat. II changes. So I don’t think we’re going to see the Ordinary Form celebrated in Latin much. Some of us may see the Extraordinary Form celebrated more often but for most of us nothing will change at all. I would be very surprised to find an EF Mass in my diocese and I know they won’t start using Latin for the OF.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I don’t know what to refer to the Mass in the transition years as. I have a 1966 St. Joseph’s Missal that was barely used because every six months something was changed in the Mass that didn’t match what was in the missal. I do know that by fall of 1968 the Mass was entirely in English and by the First Sunday of Advent 1969 we had had the NO already in place and solely in English with the English translations of prayers like the Gloria in their new translations rather than the ones in use in 66.

Our new parish church was consecrated in May of 1967, There was no high altar - although we did have altar rails. The orientation of the church was not towards the altar…we were spread out in a big semi-circle surrounding the altar. We had an electronic organ which was used for two or three years and then retired in favor of the "a-strummin’ and a-grinnin’ folks with those horrid songs that came out in the early 70s and have not stood the test of time.

So, even though I would love to see the NO said completely in Latin or like it is said on EWTN, I’m not going to hold my breath. But I am praying that the EF will have a positive effect on the OF.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

My local parish church (physically nearest) is over 75 years old.

It never had a ‘high’ altar though it did have altar rails at one point.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I have said this before, though not on this thread. I do like the NO, for reasons I won’t go into right now. But in my parish we have English Masses that the Hispanics don’t attend, and Spanish Masses that the “Anglos” don’t attend. If it was said in Latin, we could go to the same Mass. Seems to me that would help out with the “priest shortage” quite a bit.

English is about 1/3 Latin-derived and much more of Spanish is. It is difficult for me to believe we can’t learn to say it and to know what it means. When I was a kid, it was in Latin, and we knew what the prayers, and most of the hymns, meant in English. The two longest prayers, the “Our Father” and the “Creed” I can still say in Latin from memory, though I cannot converse in Latin. I have them memorized in English too. Now, if I can still say them in Latin, does anyone really suppose I don’t know what the words of the “Our Father” and “Creed” mean if they’re said in Latin?

I never did buy that “spirit of V II” silliness about how ‘nobody understood’ the Latin. We sure as the world did.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

As a nation we are better getting folks able to speak more of the active current languages than worrying about learning Latin for some liturgy or other.

 

[planter654]

I have said this before, though not on this thread. I do like the NO, for reasons I won’t go into right now. But in my parish we have English Masses that the Hispanics don’t attend, and Spanish Masses that the “Anglos” don’t attend. If it was said in Latin, we could go to the same Mass. Seems to me that would help out with the “priest shortage” quite a bit.

English is about 1/3 Latin-derived and much more of Spanish is. It is difficult for me to believe we can’t learn to say it and to know what it means. When I was a kid, it was in Latin, and we knew what the prayers, and most of the hymns, meant in English. The two longest prayers, the “Our Father” and the “Creed” I can still say in Latin from memory, though I cannot converse in Latin. I have them memorized in English too. Now, if I can still say them in Latin, does anyone really suppose I don’t know what the words of the “Our Father” and “Creed” mean if they’re said in Latin?

I never did buy that “spirit of V II” silliness about how ‘nobody understood’ the Latin. We sure as the world did.

What did Jesus speak in? Should the mass not be in Latin? Or should it be in Jesus language? The reason as you stated above makes even less common sense now. I am English and go to an English mass, that their minds should be attained to their voices. My voice is English! If I go to a French or Spanish mass I cannot participate coming out of Mass like I did not even go. That is French go to French, Spanish go to Spanish. Now Latin please.

But everyone the greater % knows English unless you just came from Mexico etc.

Just do mass in English for we are forever English living in a English country. I know when I was young we just repeated by memory the words and that was it, it had no meaning to me as a child. I went to an English school like everyone else. Makes no sense to me, other than what is the real reason for doing so.

Canadian government speaks and repeats in English and French. I do not know if any other country does s?. Which is crazy also we have been an English speaking country for generations.

I do not know about others, but when I praise and give worship to God I want to know within the depth of my heart what I am saying and to mean it, just not to repeat it.

We were told once at a concert, when we were arguing over English and French before it finally took place within our government. By a famous Italian singer, that he just came from B. C and should quit fighting over French and English and start learning to speak Chinese !

No we are all God children God Bless

 

[dessert]

I don’t know what to refer to the Mass in the transition years as. I have a 1966 St. Joseph’s Missal that was barely used because every six months something was changed in the Mass that didn’t match what was in the missal. I do know that by fall of 1968 the Mass was entirely in English and by the First Sunday of Advent 1969 we had had the NO already in place and solely in English with the English translations of prayers like the Gloria in their new translations rather than the ones in use in 66.

Our new parish church was consecrated in May of 1967, There was no high altar - although we did have altar rails. The orientation of the church was not towards the altar…we were spread out in a big semi-circle surrounding the altar. We had an electronic organ which was used for two or three years and then retired in favor of the "a-strummin’ and a-grinnin’ folks with those horrid songs that came out in the early 70s and have not stood the test of time.

So, even though I would love to see the NO said completely in Latin or like it is said on EWTN, I’m not going to hold my breath. But I am praying that the EF will have a positive effect on the OF.

So do you think they will incorpoate Latin into all the masses everywhere? What do you think they will do with the Psalms, it has so many variations from what I hear?

 

[TMGallyon85]

I’m Praying that the EF gets more widespread so we dont have to drive 80 miles round trip everytime we want to visit the EF celebrating parish. It’s like if you prefer the the EF, you have to make pilgrimages like the early colonists did because so few Priests know the Latin. I grew up from 1985 on, so i never knew any latin masses.

 

[planter654]

So do you think they will incorpoate Latin into all the masses everywhere? What do you think they will do with the Psalms, it has so many variations from what I hear?

Like we do not have enough problems understanding ourselves and teaching the English language to our children.

God Bless

 

[Cat]

Please keep in mind that I was born, raised, and spent over 40 years in evangelical Protestant churches before converting to Catholicism. This colors everything I learn in the Catholic Church. I am willing to be re-taught, but in my heart of hearts, there will always be certain doors that will squeak or fail to move when people try to open them. Maybe when I’ve been Catholic as long as I was Protestant, I will think differently.

Keep in mind that many other evangelicals are converting to Catholicism, and very likely have some of the same mindset that I have.

The more I read from “Latin” supporters, the more I get the impression that they are seeking an emotional “experience.” They may express it eloquently, but when I remove all the good writing and study what they are really saying, they are basically saying that Latin makes them “feel” more reverent or “spiritual.”

My background has made me very wary of “experiences.” We were taught from childhood that we walk by faith and that we trust in facts. We should never rely on our feelings or seek feelings. We were taught to avoid churches that provide a “worship experience.”

And I’m still wary of “experiential worship.”

I like the tangibles in the Catholic Church. I love the sacraments–real “matter” that God uses for spiritual purposes.

But these tangibles don’t necessarily give me any warm fuzzies or inspire emotional highs in me. To me, they are facts, and that’s why I was able to accept them as truth. Yes, I occasionally get emotional during Mass, because I am aware of Jesus’ True Presence. But I don’t seek this “emotional experience,” and if I fail to become emotional during Mass, I am still the recipient of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. It’s true no matter how I feel.

To me, as a former evangelical, the Catholic Christian who “feels” that the Latin Mass is more “spiritual” is no different than the Pentecostal Christian who “feels” that a charistmatic-style worship time with speaking in tongues is more “spiritual,” or an African-American Christian who “feels” that dancing in the aisles is more “spiritual,” or a Lutheran Christian who “feels” that a complete orchestra and pipe organ is more “spiritual.”

I accept the recommendations of the Vatican that more Latin be incorporated into the Mass for the sake of remembering and honoring Catholic history and tradition. To me, that is a logical reason and has nothing to do with emotions or atmosphere or feelings.

I hope this makes sense. It is difficult to try to convey an evangelical Protestant mindset to people who haven’t lived it.

BTW, to those who say that anyone can understand Latin, I beg to differ. I took it in high school, and I still don’t get it.

 

[michaeldaniels]

As a staunch traditionalist, I would love to see a return to an ALL Latin Mass…but as someone in FULL Communion with The Holy See, I love and respect both accepted rites…as far as the education/information aspect of it goes…Unfortuneatly, this information is not readily available at the majority of Catholic parishes nationwide, therefore, we must educate ourselves and our neighbors on this. God Bless and Merry Christmas

I’m all for a few phrases of Latin in the mass, but the rest in English. What is also needed is more information ABOUT the mass. Explanations of each part of the mass. Many people don’t even realize that all of the mass is from scripture. Some don’t even know why they should attend!!!

We need teaching along with preaching!!

---

*Remember the reason for the season.
*

 

[michaeldaniels]

What does this POV have to do with anything we are discussing? God Bless

As a nation we are better getting folks able to speak more of the active current languages than worrying about learning Latin for some liturgy or other.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Cat, I am the product of a “mixed” marriage. My mother and father were married in the sacristy of my mother’s church because “gasp” my father was Protestant. His father wasn’t. His father was Catholic who married a divorced Protestant woman in the 1910’s and was excommunicated from HMC and from his family.

My father swore to raise his children Catholic. My father worked two jobs for years to put the three of us through Catholic school (through high school). My Daddy was the one to take me at 5:30 am to serve Mass in Latin. And to pick me up.

Around All Saints Day here in south Louisiana we have this custom of cleaning the graves and whitewashing them. (We are buried above ground because of the water table). My great aunt on my mother’s side just happened to be a friend of my great aunt on my father’s Catholic side. I met my Catholic cousins and aunt from my father’s side of the family once a year when one great aunt would reach out to another.

Daddy started attending Mass with us around 1970. He had a stroke in 1983, As fantastic as this may sound, you would have to have been brought up in the culture in which I was brought up in. Certain things were never discussed. Religion was one of them. My father had a full Mass of Christian Burial in 1996. Somewhere, somehow he was received into the Church. My mother would never speak of it nor would my sister.

My father’s first cousin came up to me at my father’s funeral and knew more about it than me. My first cousin whom I had not seen since my grandmother’s funeral in 1968 was in attendance.

I never ever want to go back to that kind of Catholic/Protestant mindset. But that is just how serious things were before Vatican II.

Now to the present day. At 56 I have been to a grand total of five Protesant serives. One was my grandmother’s funeral in a German Congegationalist church. Two Lutheran weddings (which were certainly understandable and two Episcoplian weddings in which I was “outed” only by a difference in words.

It is precisely because of this that I temper my comments. It is not experience. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that being Catholic (insofar as I know it) has a far more profound meaning to me. No, to me and to many members of my generation to be “Catholic” meant something elese entirely.

We were always something of the “odd duck” in my neighborhood in that my father was not Catholic. I will say it again - I have absolutely no desire to see those days come back. But Cat, for every year you spent in evangelical Protestantism, I spent in traditional Catholicism.

So there is the glaring dichotomy. You have to understand how I felt as a kid wondering if my father was condemned to hell. I am not even half the man of my father. But Cat, it was he who drove me to all those Low Masses. It was he who paid for my Catholic education. I look at things differently and I know why.

 

[Phemie]

I’m Praying that the EF gets more widespread so we dont have to drive 80 miles round trip everytime we want to visit the EF celebrating parish. It’s like if you prefer the the EF, you have to make pilgrimages like the early colonists did because so few Priests know the Latin. I grew up from 1985 on, so i never knew any latin masses.

No kidding. I have to travel about 600 miles, 1 way.

 

[dessert]

My parents were "mixed " marriage and he, my dad, did fine for awhile, till it came to how many children they wanted. Then they disagrred and that is how the bitterness started.

I think men back then were more loyal to their wives and their vow for better or worse. Men seemed to honor their word as a gentleman maybe even then as even given to the brides father.

Women were a lot more loyal to the Church, and also respected their husbands so much. But I wonder if they didn’t love the Church more which maybe isn’t so wrong.

 

[dessert]

Like we do not have enough problems understanding ourselves and teaching the English language to our children.

God Bless

Children will pick up foreign language easier than us it is just that the culture will come along with it. Is there a culture with Latin?
Unless it is Roman? Rome? I always picture those old roman heads and busts of nero etc.

Our Catholic school has the children come over on the childrens mass day and they put about 3 or 4 girls and have them lead the Psalms. This seems to work as maybe as adults they will at least join in, so as the adults now don’t so much. But I see a change in their attitude the children are grabbing the mic and acting like it is a solo light and or kareoke time. So I am not sure that they even understand as it is even in english. Do they really know the meaning?

When we took German in school we sang silent night in German, something we knew. And then I’m told sometimes it is not even translated right. I bought a Christmas greeting card for a friend in french and gave it to her and it did have the translation on it but she said that it was not translated correctly according to the french words.

A Latin word or phrase may be ok but an entire context might lose something.