Why are WE here?

[jochoa]

WHAT HAPPENED?. I’m looking for a description of what happened, not just a statement that it did. Include such things as: Who, what, when.

Please note: the following are personal concepts which help me grow closer to the Christian God of Catholicism. I share them in hopes of you growing closer to the Christian God of Catholicism.

What an excellent challenge, my friend!
Without a doubt, I do not know how He made things happen or how He existed, but…
Here is a simple concept of “what happened” before creation:
Who, or what, is this Supreme Being?

1. God, a person with an image/body, spirit, thoughts, a will which proceeds from the thoughts and image/body, which operates according to the nature of perfect Love: being and “spreading the means to being” in a state of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy through the powers of perfect patience, kindness, motivation, and wisdom*, thought about what He wanted.
   Why did it create the universe?
2. He wanted others, like himself, to freely experience and share the “means to experience” the awesomeness of unbreakable peace and limitless happiness and unstoppable energy (Love). He wanted us to freely choose to be perfectly patient and kind and motivated. For then, not only would we experience awesomeness, He would experience greater awesomeness.
3. He thought about what all is required to ensure that the choice to Love is of pure freedom(The Word), for if it is not of pure freedom, He might as well make robots or do no extra work.
4. After thinking about many intense and extreme circumstances which is generated from this want, He ensured that He was ready to be of perfect judgment, mercy, and punishment.
5. He thought about every small detail of the plan to ensure it would work. (The Word With God)
6. After He was certain the plan would work, He made it happen (The Word was God).

I have thought of a somewhat simple outline for how God guides free-willed beings to the goal without interfering with free-will.

1. He gave His purposeful creations everything necessary to enjoy life, except full wisdom or knowledge. He made us to desire peace, happiness, energy, wisdom, and companionship. He made sure that He could initially only be known through faith because if we know He exists, and we know He is All-Powerful, our will will be limited by various factors such as fear, which would sacrifice free will.
2. In time, we lost focus on Him. From the natural consequence of being free-willed and desiring and lacking full wisdom and knowledge, we hit bottom: A point as to which we were killing unjustly in the name of false idols (money, fame, and power to name a few).
3. At this point, He showed us the way in a very calculated and precise manner as to not forfeit our free-will. He made his image/body* become human. Since His body gained a free mind and will, He is a distinct person from God and He is His only begotten Son.
4. Since He executed the method perfectly, His free-willed creations still require faith to choose to Love Him. This need for faith and demonstration of the way will continue to draw humans closer to Him, but at the same time humans will still be pushing further away from God.
5. At the complete time, God’s Will will become human. His Will will be of a free mind and body, and will be a distinct person. He will proceed from God and His Son. He will become perfected Love, therefore He will be known as the Holy Spirit. At the revelation of the Holy Spirit, The Completeness of His Purpose will be evident to All.

1. By what process did it create the universe?I have a personal concept, but it is still in development. If you are interested, I will gladly share.
2. Why did it give us consciousness?God gave us a greater depth of consciousness To allow us to experience and spread the awesomeness of Love to all.
3. Do you consider that it gave other animals consciousness? Sure, but I am confident humans have a greater depth of consciousness than all other earthly life forms.
4. How do you explain this massive mistake? Why did this Supreme Being put all this false evidence in place? It wasn’t a mistake, it is to ensure that our decision to Love is a completely free choice.

Regarding the other questions, I do not know. I do encourage you to consider, what purpose is served in knowing those answers? For as you stated, one can always ask, “But what happened before that?” ad infinitum. In other words, faith is a requirement for beings which “come into existence.” Since you came into existence, why not have faith in Jesus Christ?

what is the evidence for your responses to the above?
Recognize that you are a free-willed being who is learning about the Son(Jesus) and God (the Father), therefore you are somewhat proceeding from the Father and the Son. Which means you might be the Holy Spirit we are waiting for, so go and use all your body, thoughts, will, and spirit to become One in Patience, Kindness, and Motivation for God towards others and yourself as Jesus did according to His Church!

How can the rest of us verify your hypothesis?
Here are a few methods:

1. When you are filled with peace, happiness, and energy, recognize how you are being, respectively, patient, kind, and motivated in body, thought, will, and/or spirit.
2. When you are not filled with complete peace, happiness, or energy, recognize how you are not either patient, kind, or motivated…
3. When you learn more about scientific discoveries, and you choose to credit something other than God, recognize how much greater your free-will is apparent.

Thoughts?

 

[BrunoMaria]

So one last time, to save the last shreds of your intellectual credibility - WHAT HAPPENED?

. I’m looking for a description of what happened, not just a statement that it did. Include such things as: Who, what, when. Given that your answer presumes an intelligent decision, you also need to answer the question: “Why?”

To help you understand your responsibilities here, these are some of the questions I would expect you to answer:

1. What created the universe? Well, you’ve answered this one with “A supreme being” (which is a little vague to say the least), so follow-on questions are:
2. Who, or what, is this Supreme Being?
3. Where did it come from?
4. Why did it create the universe?
5. By what process did it create the universe?
6. When did it create the universe?
7. How did it give us consciousness?
8. What gave it consciousness?
   8a. And what gave that consciousness (and so on, ad infinitum)?
9. Why did it give us consciousness?
10. Do you consider that it gave other animals consciousness?
    10a. If so, which ones? At which threshold does consciousness not exist in animals?
11. Biology, Geology, Archeology, Homology, Genetics, Paleontology and other branches of science, all offer robust evidence that supports the Theory of Evolution. How do you explain this massive mistake? Why did this Supreme Being put all this false evidence in place?
12. Did this Supreme Being design all life forms?
    12a. If so, why did it make such a poor job? For example, why do men have nipples? Why do humans have body hair? Why does the vagus nerve take such a circuitous route in mammals? Why have we got five fingers on each hand and five toes on each foot? And so on?
13. And finally, the big one: what is the evidence for your responses to the above? How can the rest of us verify your hypothesis?

He, who asks such questions, will never understand why Christians know the answers in a deep contentedness and joy in belief. So, any further explanation would be a waist of time, as he anyhow refuses any comprehention. One day he will see anyhow.
The significant characteristic in which such fools establish their foolishness, is the continuous appellation of others, as being ignorant, stubborn and their explanation they name as “Argument from Ignorance”. So what?!
Let them be - let them see for themselves when they are judged, and let them spoil their present life in emptyness. Any answer is useless, for even when the fool walks on the road, he lacks sense, and he says to every one that he is a fool. A fool multiplies words, though no man knows what is to be, and who can tell him what will be after him? Ecc 10,3-14

 

[tonyrey]

Just throwing this out there even if it’s late in the thread.

I recall reading in Pope John Paul II’s call to artists that when an artists creates a piece, he/she echos the divine creation of the universe.

Being an artist of sorts myself, if one of my sculptures came alive and asked me why it is there. “I would reply, well, because you’re beautiful and you make me happy and it was a joy to design and create you.”

Not that I could ever speak for God, but I imagine His answer would be along the same lines.

Welcome to the forum! Anyone who is at all creative agrees with John Keats:

‘Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.’

And both are a source of joy that will last forever…

 

[tonyrey]

He, who asks such questions, will never understand why Christians know the answers in a deep contentedness and joy in belief. So, any further explanation would be a waste of time, as he anyhow refuses any comprehenson. One day he will see anyhow.
The significant characteristic in which such fools establish their foolishness, is the continuous appellation of others, as being ignorant, stubborn and their explanation they name as “Argument from Ignorance”. So what?!
Let them be - let them see for themselves when they are judged, and let them spoil their present life in emptiness. Any answer is useless, for even when the fool walks on the road, he lacks sense, and he says to every one that he is a fool. A fool multiplies words, though no man knows what is to be, and who can tell him what will be after him? Ecc 10,3-14

Trenchant and true!

 

[tonyrey]

Please note: the following are personal concepts which help me grow closer to the Christian God of Catholicism. I share them in hopes of you growing closer to the Christian God of Catholicism.

What an excellent challenge, my friend!
Without a doubt, I do not know how He made things happen or how He existed, but…
Here is a simple concept of “what happened” before creation:
Who, or what, is this Supreme Being?

1. God, a person with an image/body, spirit, thoughts, a will which proceeds from the thoughts and image/body, which operates according to the nature of perfect Love: being and “spreading the means to being” in a state of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy through the powers of perfect patience, kindness, motivation, and wisdom*, thought about what He wanted.
   Why did it create the universe?
2. He wanted others, like himself, to freely experience and share the “means to experience” the awesomeness of unbreakable peace and limitless happiness and unstoppable energy (Love). He wanted us to freely choose to be perfectly patient and kind and motivated. For then, not only would we experience awesomeness, He would experience greater awesomeness.
3. He thought about what all is required to ensure that the choice to Love is of pure freedom(The Word), for if it is not of pure freedom, He might as well make robots or do no extra work.
4. After thinking about many intense and extreme circumstances which is generated from this want, He ensured that He was ready to be of perfect judgment, mercy, and punishment.
5. He thought about every small detail of the plan to ensure it would work. (The Word With God)
6. After He was certain the plan would work, He made it happen (The Word was God).

I have thought of a somewhat simple outline for how God guides free-willed beings to the goal without interfering with free-will.

1. He gave His purposeful creations everything necessary to enjoy life, except full wisdom or knowledge. He made us to desire peace, happiness, energy, wisdom, and companionship. He made sure that He could initially only be known through faith because if we know He exists, and we know He is All-Powerful, our will will be limited by various factors such as fear, which would sacrifice free will.
2. In time, we lost focus on Him. From the natural consequence of being free-willed and desiring and lacking full wisdom and knowledge, we hit bottom: A point as to which we were killing unjustly in the name of false idols (money, fame, and power to name a few).
3. At this point, He showed us the way in a very calculated and precise manner as to not forfeit our free-will. He made his image/body* become human. Since His body gained a free mind and will, He is a distinct person from God and He is His only begotten Son.
4. Since He executed the method perfectly, His free-willed creations still require faith to choose to Love Him. This need for faith and demonstration of the way will continue to draw humans closer to Him, but at the same time humans will still be pushing further away from God.
5. At the complete time, God’s Will will become human. His Will will be of a free mind and body, and will be a distinct person. He will proceed from God and His Son. He will become perfected Love, therefore He will be known as the Holy Spirit. At the revelation of the Holy Spirit, The Completeness of His Purpose will be evident to All.

Regarding the other questions, I do not know. I do encourage you to consider, what purpose is served in knowing those answers? For as you stated, one can always ask, “But what happened before that?” ad infinitum. In other words, faith is a requirement for beings which “come into existence.” Since you came into existence, why not have faith in Jesus Christ?

what is the evidence for your responses to the above?
Recognize that you are a free-willed being who is learning about the Son(Jesus) and God (the Father), therefore you are somewhat proceeding from the Father and the Son. Which means you might be the Holy Spirit we are waiting for, so go and use all your body, thoughts, will, and spirit to become One in Patience, Kindness, and Motivation for God towards others and yourself as Jesus did according to His Church!

How can the rest of us verify your hypothesis?
Here are a few methods:

1. When you are filled with peace, happiness, and energy, recognize how you are being, respectively, patient, kind, and motivated in body, thought, will, and/or spirit.
2. When you are not filled with complete peace, happiness, or energy, recognize how you are not either patient, kind, or motivated…
3. When you learn more about scientific discoveries, and you choose to credit something other than God, recognize how much greater your free-will is apparent.

Thoughts?

Your post is charitable but also challenging!

 

[ElizabethCorbel]

To TonyRey: Thank you! I’ve read your posts on other threads and generally agree with you. It’s really nice to find people of faith who are not afraid of science.

 

[ElizabethCorbel]

To Dingodile: I really like your “brute force” argument. Right on! May I have your permission to use your argument when speaking to others not on this web site?

 

[ElizabethCorbel]

To Wanstronian: Did I answer your questions?

 

[ElizabethCorbel]

To Heliotes: Thank you very much for your persuasive argument from the creator’s point of view! Creation and creativity are a pleasure.

 

[dingodile]

To Dingodile: I really like your “brute force” argument. Right on! May I have your permission to use your argument when speaking to others not on this web site?

That’s brute facts, a term that I didn’t invent. See plato.stanford.edu/entries/sufficient-reason/ and scroll down to “Do all facts—including the most ordinary ones—demand an explanation? If you accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason (= PSR), you will require an explanation for any fact, or in other words, you will reject the possibility of brute, or unexplainable, facts.” (end of first paragraph of Introduction)

But in any case, yes, you have my permission to use my argument!

 

[tonyrey]

To Wanstronian: Did I answer your questions?

 

[tonyrey]

To TonyRey: Thank you! I’ve read your posts on other threads and generally agree with you. It’s really nice to find people of faith who are not afraid of science.

I had to study the philosophy of science which puts it in its true perspective…

One important point made by Q.V.Quine is:

“The myth of physical objects is epistemologically superior to most in that it has proved more efficacious than other myths as a device for working a manageable structure into the flux of experience”.

But he failed to realise the significance of the minds which have created the myth! So he arrived at the absurd conclusion:

“Physics investigates the essential nature of the world, and biology describes a local bump. Psychology, human psychology, describes a bump on the bump.”

Contrast that view with the view of the great French philosopher and mathematician Pascal:

“Penser fait la grandeur de l’homme.” (Thought makes the greatness of Man.)

He pointed out that we know the universe exists whereas the universe doesn’t know we exist! The mind comes first in every way…

 

[LayingHands]

The universe was designed and created by the Supreme Being rather than popping into existence by itself** for no reason or purpose whatsoever** and magically producing freaks who succeeded in magically calculating out that they exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever…

To ask these intelligent questions is the real beginning in wanting to understand how, why, and when GOD created this cosmic manesfestation and all the living entities in it! The correct answer is The Science of GOD, The Science of Self-Realization, written as relayed by GOD over 5,000 years ago, when he again felt the need to incarnate on this world and bring an end to the forgetful godlessness which was again rampant…read this book!..it is called the, Bhagavad-Gita AS IT IS, and has been translated from the oldest language, sanskrit, to english, for all of his, GOD’s children instruction. In it he answers all these questions and so much more! There was never a great mystery, just the lack of aquiring the Scriptures and being written in the oldest language…GOD provided these answers over 5,000 years ago!..with all the specific direction and instructions, of how to live this human life, to learn and live to become worthy to return to where we came from…back to him…back to GODHEAD, after this life! Human life has NO other purpose than to worship, glorify, pray to…GOD!

 

[tonyrey]

To ask these intelligent questions is the real beginning in wanting to understand how, why, and when GOD created this cosmic manesfestation and all the living entities in it! The correct answer is The Science of GOD, The Science of Self-Realization, written as relayed by GOD over 5,000 years ago, when he again felt the need to incarnate on this world and bring an end to the forgetful godlessness which was again rampant…read this book!..it is called the, Bhagavad-Gita AS IT IS, and has been translated from the oldest language, sanskrit, to english, for all of his, GOD’s children instruction. In it he answers all these questions and so much more! There was never a great mystery, just the lack of aquiring the Scriptures and being written in the oldest language…GOD provided these answers over 5,000 years ago!..with all the specific direction and instructions, of how to live this human life, to learn and live to become worthy to return to where we came from…back to him…back to GODHEAD, after this life! Human life has NO other purpose than to worship, glorify, pray to…GOD!

I have been very impressed by the Bhagavad-Gita for many years! I like the verses chosen as a summary by Steve Rosen:

“I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from me. The Wise who fully realize this engage in my devotional service and worship me with all their hearts.” 10.8

“My pure devotees are absorbed in thoughts of me, and they experience fulfillment and bliss by enlightening one another and conversing about me.” 10.9

“To those who are continually devoted and worship me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to me.” 10.10

“Out of compassion for them, I, residing in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.” 10.11

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Its all very well fellow members but the questions were easy. What about the idea of complaint re pain and suffering? How does your particular sketch of God conform with all loving in face of the ridiculousness of pain.
The obstruction to the flow in operations of all biological life. What about animals? Are animals doormats to the advantage of a so called man of humility. Are the animals not also the little ones? What say you man with all confident, cozy and comfortable for the moment dream state idea’s? Yes indeed, cozy and comfortable enjoying the freedom of non obstruction. A transitory illusion to the time bomb of every single potential and inevitable explosion of dismay

…how about perhaps a lovely tooth ache for the next couple of days, fancy that one. How about circumstances unfold for a little rejection from all that you care for followed by fatigue, loss of job, no food and a little fall down the stairs landing on your tail bone for desert?

Once the tail bone starts to get a little better you get falsely accused of something, tossed in jail for ten or so and leave with an abhorrent sense to all that can think things out rationally.

Yes, simple questions for simple vague minds with a simple sketch of God…go ahead push this baby under the carpet and encourage man that all is well.

All is well relative to what exactly. Individual taste maybe?..or individual conscience-convienience survival?

You guys are lucky there are zero good atheists kicking around. What is this god comprised of in thought for the kindergarten believers? You all seem to “think” god thinks with a single mind or something, it would appear theres a little explaining to do, and while I’m at it, you all stuck your foot in the door with this thread, no pullin out with mystery…you all seem to elude to knowing what your talking about so…lets have it…

What comprises the so assumed individual mind of God …while simultaneously constructing the biological body along with zillions of contributing entities ( animals-insects) which I suppose your God, not mine ,decided to use as doormats…JUST for little ole you…oh your so special, unique,why…just like god. but humble, don’t forget now:thumbsup:

 

[jmcrae]

1. What created the universe? Well, you’ve answered this one with “A supreme being” (which is a little vague to say the least), so follow-on questions are:
2. Who, or what, is this Supreme Being?

God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

1. Where did it come from?

God created both time and space, so there was neither “when” nor “where” yet, before there was God. As far as time and space is concerned, God has always been everywhere.

1. Why did it create the universe?

To please Himself.

1. By what process did it create the universe?

By speaking it into existence by means of the Word (which later became Man and dwelled amongst us - Jesus Christ.)

1. When did it create the universe?

In the beginning. (Scientists estimate it to be some time between 12 and 14 billion years ago.

1. How did it give us consciousness?

I don’t know, except to say that He created us in HIs own image, so there is some kind of sharing between Himself and us of His consciousness.

1. What gave it consciousness?

He is God - the Source of all things, so there was nothing to give Him consciousness. He doesn’t so much possess these things as embody them.

1. Why did it give us consciousness?

To know Him, to love Him, to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him in the next.

1. Do you consider that it gave other animals consciousness?

I don’t know. I am not completely sure that animals experience consciousness in the same way that we do.

1. Biology, Geology, Archeology, Homology, Genetics, Paleontology and other branches of science, all offer robust evidence that supports the Theory of Evolution. How do you explain this massive mistake? Why did this Supreme Being put all this false evidence in place?

Actually, there is no contradiction between the theory of evolution and the idea that God created everything. It’s clear that when God creates beings today, it is by means of genesis from their parents.

1. Did this Supreme Being design all life forms?

Not only all life forms, but everything that exists - time, space, non-space, non-time, whatever that stuff is that resides between the stars that we call “empty,” the rocks, the water, the dirt, the salt, the air, the wind, the vapour, and everything.

12a. If so, why did it make such a poor job? For example, why do men have nipples? Why do humans have body hair? Why does the vagus nerve take such a circuitous route in mammals? Why have we got five fingers on each hand and five toes on each foot? And so on?

You’d have to ask Him. I have no idea, myself.

1. And finally, the big one: what is the evidence for your responses to the above?

Existence itself is the evidence. It makes more sense that the source of all existence generated existence, than that there was absolutely nothing - no space, no time, no substance, and no non-substance, and then suddenly, there it all was, with no initial event, and no source for any of it.

 

[BrunoMaria]

When I was a child, we had in our schoolbook for the subject “religion” this question
"Why are we here?"
The answer given (and had to be learned by heart), was:
>We are here to do good; to thereby get into heaven.<
It’s as easy as this - just as Pope Benedict said: Belief is so easy!

Yours
Bruno

 

[LayingHands]

Its all very well fellow members but the questions were easy. What about the idea of complaint re pain and suffering? How does your particular sketch of God conform with all loving in face of the ridiculousness of pain.
The obstruction to the flow in operations of all biological life. What about animals? Are animals doormats to the advantage of a so called man of humility. Are the animals not also the little ones? What say you man with all confident, cozy and comfortable for the moment dream state idea’s? Yes indeed, cozy and comfortable enjoying the freedom of non obstruction. A transitory illusion to the time bomb of every single potential and inevitable explosion of dismay

…how about perhaps a lovely tooth ache for the next couple of days, fancy that one. How about circumstances unfold for a little rejection from all that you care for followed by fatigue, loss of job, no food and a little fall down the stairs landing on your tail bone for desert?

Once the tail bone starts to get a little better you get falsely accused of something, tossed in jail for ten or so and leave with an abhorrent sense to all that can think things out rationally.

Yes, simple questions for simple vague minds with a simple sketch of God…go ahead push this baby under the carpet and encourage man that all is well.

All is well relative to what exactly. Individual taste maybe?..or individual conscience-convienience survival?

You guys are lucky there are zero good atheists kicking around. What is this god comprised of in thought for the kindergarten believers? You all seem to “think” god thinks with a single mind or something, it would appear theres a little explaining to do, and while I’m at it, you all stuck your foot in the door with this thread, no pullin out with mystery…you all seem to elude to knowing what your talking about so…lets have it…

What comprises the so assumed individual mind of God …while simultaneously constructing the biological body along with zillions of contributing entities ( animals-insects) which I suppose your God, not mine ,decided to use as doormats…JUST for little ole you…oh your so special, unique,why…just like god. but humble, don’t forget now:thumbsup:

My, my…ranting against GOD? Should you ever get over the pity party,read the scriptures of The Science of GOD, and learn about GOD, on your own…find out for yourself…but, apparently, you are not ready…All pain is a part of life and GOD is the Controller of All. Your previous life’s activities in the prior life, are attached to your spirit soul and are still something you must suffer and endure…and all of the living entities lives are Evolutionary, either asended or descended from higher or lower reward depending on the Godliness or lack of, that particular life entity. Evolutionary life includes all lives from the ocean to land, animals and includes plants and trees.

GOD also gives you the opportunity by his mercy, in this human life to erase all your past sins, during this lifetime!..shocking, huh? Once you understand his Absolute Supreme Truth and how he instructs all his sons and daughters to live by his spiritual laws, and he has turned to accept you, by his mercy…only then will this life change for you. In worshipping, glorifying and praying to GOD, in this state, you are also building your spiritual body, for spiritual eternal life, after this death…to go home to GODHEAD…and NEVER descend or ascend into the planets cycle of material transmigration existence, again.

 

[jochoa]

Its all very well fellow members but the questions were easy. What about the idea of complaint re pain and suffering? How does your particular sketch of God conform with all loving in face of the ridiculousness of pain?

Excellent and Challenging questions my friend! I would like to embrace the challenge of this question. I would first like to offer a scenario to demonstrate that the righteousness vs ridiculousness of pain lies in perspective.

First, why are we here? To prove to God that we are worthy of living in His Kingdom.
How do we prove that we are worthy? By demonstrating in this lifetime, that we will freely choose to be patient and kind and motivated for God for the sake of greater peace and happiness as a society, as well as self, even in the face of unjust pain and suffering.

To attempt to recognize how the pain can be righteous, please consider the following scenario:
You have been appointed team captain. You have to pick a team of free-willed people of the world which will achieve the greatest level of peace, happiness, and energy as a team, as well as individuals. You know the only way to achieve this is by each player of the team desiring the goal and being and spreading the means to being unconditionally patient and kind.
Before selecting who will be on the team, you have a few options, do you…
A) Allow everyone of the world on the team, without consideration of what, how, and why they desire and do.
B) blindly and randomly pick and reject people.
C) watch and study the wills of each person to see how truly desiring of the goal they are; to see how unconditional they are; and to see whether they work for the greater good of themselves or the team or both, even in the face of pain and suffering.
There is one rule though: Although you will know at various points in the life of the persons, how truly dedicated to the goal, how unconditionally patient and kind they are, and what greater good they truly serve, you cannot place them on the team prior to natural death, for that would sacrifice the free-will of the other people of the world.

How does this scenario conform to an all loving God? The following are only some of the ways:
When a person desires peace, happiness, and energy for the society and the self, they are teachable. Therefore God knows He can teach the poor in spirit and the mourners, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.
When a person is fully obedient to even oppressive authorities, they are teachable. Therefore God knows He can teach the meek because He is the Supreme Authority, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.
When a person desires to understand patience/peace, kindness/happiness, and motivation/energy better, they are teachable. Therefore, God knows He can teach those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.
When a person is forgiving of others because they know the others know not what they do, they are teachable and helpful to the cause. Therefore, God knows He can teach and count on the merciful to extinguish strife, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.
When a person is fully dedicated to the goal and has achieved unbreakable peace in the self, they are teachable and helpful to the cause. Therefore, God knows He can teach and count on the pure in heart to begin spreading the means, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.
When a person is spreading and spreading the means to peace, s/he is a child of God. Therefore, God knows He can teach and count on the peacemakers to make peace in His Kingdom, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.
When a person, who does not fully understand the Word or how to spread the Word, gets persecuted for the sake of spreading the Word, they are teachable. Therefore, God knows He can teach them and count on them to do His Will, so He welcomes them with open arms into His Kingdom.

Thoughts?

 

[ElizabethCorbel]

…how about perhaps a lovely tooth ache for the next couple of days, fancy that one. How about circumstances unfold for a little rejection from all that you care for followed by fatigue, loss of job, no food and a little fall down the stairs landing on your tail bone for desert?

Once the tail bone starts to get a little better you get falsely accused of something, tossed in jail for ten or so and leave with an abhorrent sense to all that can think things out rationally.

Yes, simple questions for simple vague minds with a simple sketch of God…go ahead push this baby under the carpet and encourage man that all is well.

I wonder why you are so vituperative, when it is not called for. Can’t you refute a point without descending to diatribe or without being insulting? But to answer your question:

You say this is a simple question, but it is not simple at all. And then you give forth a set of circumstances that are clearly painful, unfair, uncalled for, and probably out of your control. Well, I have personally lived through that.

When I was married for 13 years, my husband wanted to throw me away like the piece of trash he thought I was. He wanted me to leave and he would get the house and the kids and everything else. When I asked what he thought I deserved, he said the clothes on my back. Well, I said that wasn’t acceptable and I didn’t leave, although we did live separate lives for approximately six years. I cried from a broken heart at least two hours every day for an entire year. And I remained a warm and loving mother to my children, and I was civil to my husband, even when he wasn’t civil to me.

On top of that, I was in immense pain for over five years, to the tune of taking 8 vicodins a day and it would just barely touch the pain. And the pain did not go away because it was my birthday, or because I was studying for a test, or because it was Christmas, etc., etc.

And yes, it did make me question if there was a God. How could God let this happen to me? I didn’t deserve what happened to me. Etc. But a very wonderful man, Father Aidan O’Donovan, was Christ for me. He helped me to turn my life around by showing me that I could accept my life as it was instead of pining away for what I think I was owed. And once I accepted that, then I could work on the areas that I thought needed improvement. So I started with being thankful for my children and my job. I had always wanted a library in my house, so I started one by buying The Iliad and The Odyssey. It was a huge step for me because I actually bought something for one of my goals without asking my husband’s permission. And, in fact, I quit asking my husband’s permission for most of my actions, and learned to think for myself. And when he attacked me (verbally), I would say, “I’m sorry you feel that way. But I have to do what I think is best.” And I wouldn’t engage him.

And now we’ve been married 28 years and we have a wonderful marriage. And we finally addressed my medical problems (another thing my husband thought was frivolous), and now I’m pain free most days and don’t take Vicodin any longer except very, very occasionally.

So that is the very, very brief version of my story. And I would like to paraphrase Virgil in his Aeneid. (I would quote, but I don’t have it here and I don’t remember it exactly.) But he said something like: “It is easy to fall into the pits of hell. But to climb back out again and to breathe the clear, sweet air…ahhhh, that is the hard part.” And it sure is. But with God, all things are possible. And He brought me through it all.

The second point I would like to address is your attitude that Christians have “vague minds with a simple sketch of God”. I would refute this claim quite strongly. In fact, it seems to me that you are the one with the simple sketch of God. You seem to envision Him as some sort of Santa Claus who gives us whatever we want or whatever we deserve whenever we demand it. And if He doesn’t, then it’s time to throw a temper tantrum. That is not belief. That is magic. And it’s the basis for all of the ancient (I mean really ancient) religions. The gods had to be propitiated with sacrifices and gifts. And when things went wrong, you went to the shaman, or the witch doctor, or the priest, and they prayed on your behalf, they said magic words, they performed magic rites, etc., to get the gods to be benevolent to you again. Because it’s in our human nature to want to control everything.

But true belief is not about controlling God; it’s about knowing He is there to help, to comfort, and to guide us through all the bad stuff and to rejoice with us during the good times. Belief is so simple…and yet it is so hard. It’s hard because we don’t want to admit there are things beyond our control. It’s simple because it only takes one little prayer: “Lord, please come into my heart and make me whole.”

The third point I would like to make is a comment when you said “go ahead push this baby under the carpet and encourage man that all is well”. No, all is not well. That’s why we need a Savior–Someone who is both the Way and who can show us the Way.