Why are we judged on such a brief flicker of time?

[oldcelt]

Doubt doesn’t entail damnation.

Thank you Tony.

 

[tonyrey]

Doubt doesn’t entail damnation.

I’m sure our mothers are in heaven, John, because they lived with love…

 

[crenfro]

…

Now, if our souls live for eternity, as is indicated in the tradition of faith, can we make sense out of how it would seem “just” when God is doing, as far as we can tell, the same thing?

Reminds me of that story of the contest between the atheist vs God. They were both challenged to make a man out of nothing. As they got started, the atheist scooped up some dirt to get started and God told him, “no, you have to make your own dirt.”

God always has been, is and will be. We got started at some point in time, plus God created us out of nothing solely out of love for us. God’s justice isn’t our justice. In fact I’m counting on that fact.

What are we to God but naive, feeble-minded children?

Have you looked at a Crucifix lately? Did you see what God did for His naive, feeble-minded children so as to make it possible for them to be with Him in eternity?

Why then give us the power in such a situation to determine our eternal fate?

My answer would be -->out of love and respect. Since God loves us, he respects us enough to make our own choices, one of which is to either reject or accept His love. He didn’t make us automatons, but His children in His image - solely out of love.

Let me be clear: I’m not saying he shouldn’t. I’m not saying I’d do it differently. I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

You aren’t saying here that we might know better than God, are you? Just wondering. I have a terrible time with the sins of pride and arrogance and must confess them all the time, especially when I think I know better. You got me remembering some of the messes I’ve made in my life when I thought I knew better.

I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

I’d work that sentence above a little differently- but this is only me. I’d have it read -->God is asking of us to be more like Him so that we can be more fair and merciful.

This is only my opinion, please take or leave as you see fit.

 

[vames]

I can’t answer for Neoplatonist, but you have struck on an area that has caused me some sleepless nights of pondering. I look at the case of my mother, a devout Catholic until very near the end of her life, Circumstances conspired against this sweet, loving lady to the point that she looked at me one day and said, You know John, I’m not sure I even believe anymore. I cannot envision a merciful or practical God who would send her soul to eternal damnation.Such an act would be without purpose.
That possibility and some others have, at least temporarily, prompted me to look at a more simplistic view of God.,…a view that is not dependent on words written down by humans and translated many, many times. I feel strangely comfortable, but I want to be certain that I have understood what is truly important.

I’ve had the same sleepless nights after my mother died and it took me a long time to read everything that I could find about hell and purgatory. The difference between the old understanding (with its culturally conditioned private revelations or simple terrifying fantasies about how hell and purgatory look like) and Spe Salvi or our contemporary Catechism is astonishing. “I feel strangely comfortable” - this pretty much describes my own current situation

 

[Neoplatonist]

Reminds me of that story of the contest between the atheist vs God. They were both challenged to make a man out of nothing. As they got started, the atheist scooped up some dirt to get started and God told him, “no, you have to make your own dirt.”

God always has been, is and will be. We got started at some point in time, plus God created us out of nothing solely out of love for us. God’s justice isn’t our justice. In fact I’m counting on that fact.

Have you looked at a Crucifix lately? Did you see what God did for His naive, feeble-minded children so as to make it possible for them to be with Him in eternity?

?] The fact parents will suffer for their children doesn’t change the fact that they are children. That I would have thrown myself in front of a bus for my 3-year-old doesn’t mean she was capable of making important life decisions.

My answer would be -->out of love and respect. Since God loves us, he respects us enough to make our own choices, one of which is to either reject or accept His love. He didn’t make us automatons, but His children in His image - solely out of love.

Loving us and wanting us to learn to be accountable for our own choices, however, is hopefully adjusted to the level of our maturity.

You aren’t saying here that we might know better than God, are you? Just wondering. I have a terrible time with the sins of pride and arrogance and must confess them all the time, especially when I think I know better. You got me remembering some of the messes I’ve made in my life when I thought I knew better.

Nope. Think I’ve expressed pretty clearly that my comments have nothing to do with whether God is good or brilliant or any of that. My comments and questions have to do with whether we can get an understanding of the situation and claims that can be reconciled with, rather than contradicting, our understanding of goodness in other areas.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Loving us and wanting us to learn to be accountable for our own choices, however, is hopefully adjusted to the level of our maturity.

The church does in fact teach this. This is why one must have full knowledge and will to commit a mortal sin.

 

[mikekle]

70 years seems like a long time. All he’s asking for us us to say yes to him and tell him sorry when we screw up.

It seems like a long time to us though, not to God or anyone else in the afterlife. Ive asked myself this question many times, seems strange to me we would be only given a very small ‘window’ of opportunity to either accept God or choose to live without him, our souls are eternal, just our bodies that wear out after around 70 or so years the soul never wears out. It really does not make sense our souls (ourselves) are only given this short amount of time to choose, and after death, no more ability to make ANY decisions!

The way I see it, it shows that God is ONLY willing to forgive for a very limited amount of time.

 

[crenfro]

Hello again.

Perhaps you should address your questions to God in prayer. Daily mass, adoration and regular reception of the sacraments may help you get your answers. Have you tried a daily Rosary?

I will keep you in my prayers. Placing you in the enclosed garden of the most sacred heart of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I hope you’ll pray for me.

 

[ericc]

It seems like a long time to us though, not to God or anyone else in the afterlife. Ive asked myself this question many times, seems strange to me we would be only given a very small ‘window’ of opportunity to either accept God or choose to live without him, our souls are eternal, just our bodies that wear out after around 70 or so years the soul never wears out. It really does not make sense our souls (ourselves) are only given this short amount of time to choose, and after death, no more ability to make ANY decisions!

The way I see it, it shows that God is ONLY willing to forgive for a very limited amount of time.

Long time or short time is relative. God gives us sufficient time to choose. Otherwise he wouldn’t be fair , would he?

Now look at ourselves. Why do we need to procrastinate? Is it because we want to do things OUR way and expect God to wait for us by the sidelines? We would be mighty upset if others were to do that to us. We don’t even have that tolerance when we are on the receiving end of the stick and yet we EXPECT God to give us unlimited time to come around? Basically what we are saying to God, is this : You, wait for me, I am not done sinning yet. When I am done, I’ll give you a call and you better be there when I call.

God one day will say to us “Sorry! Time’s Up!” And you already know you wouldn’t know the day and time he pulls the plug on you. If you are a gambling man, and the stakes are eternally high, do you still want to procrastinate? After all God has given you freewill, the knowledge of him, and you know the rules.

 

[openmind77]

How strange it would be for us to judge a child, choose their future career, their happiness, their everything, based on how they behaved or felt or what they said during one random period of 5 minutes back when they were in 3rd grade.

Now, if our souls live for eternity, as is indicated in the tradition of faith, can we make sense out of how it would seem “just” when God is doing, as far as we can tell, the same thing? What are 70 years compared to eternity but a blink? What are we to God but naive, feeble-minded children? Why then give us the power in such a situation to determine our eternal fate?

Let me be clear: I’m not saying he shouldn’t. I’m not saying I’d do it differently. I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

Maybe I don’t really need to point out the obvious answer - That there is no way that God would be so unjust which means we probably are not judged in a brief flicker of time…

Maybe the Christian dogma of humans having only one lifetime and a single judgement by God that sends you either to hell or heaven (after purgatory) is not true at all?

Why do you believe these stories about God if they make him seem unjust?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Maybe I don’t really need to point out the obvious answer - That there is no way that God would be so unjust which means we probably are not judged in a brief flicker of time…

Maybe the Christian dogma of humans having only one lifetime and a single judgement by God that sends you either to hell or heaven (after purgatory) is not true at all?

Why do you believe these stories about God if they make him seem unjust?

I agree with you, unsurprisingly, that this must not be the right understanding of how the system works. I, too, am effectively asking the same question as you, but attempting to see how an alternative understanding could work out without having to step outside the Catholic toolkit to find one.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Long time or short time is relative. God gives us sufficient time to choose. Otherwise he wouldn’t be fair , would he?

Now look at ourselves. Why do we need to procrastinate? Is it because we want to do things OUR way and expect God to wait for us by the sidelines? We would be mighty upset if others were to do that to us. We don’t even have that tolerance when we are on the receiving end of the stick and yet we EXPECT God to give us unlimited time to come around? Basically what we are saying to God, is this : You, wait for me, I am not done sinning yet. When I am done, I’ll give you a call and you better be there when I call.

God one day will say to us “Sorry! Time’s Up!” And you already know you wouldn’t know the day and time he pulls the plug on you. If you are a gambling man, and the stakes are eternally high, do you still want to procrastinate? After all God has given you freewill, the knowledge of him, and you know the rules.

Sure, there need to be deadlines for accountability to measure our progress (or lack thereof), and consequences should certainly be imposed if we are lagging. However, what is the value of consequences if not that they help us learn and correct our mistakes and misunderstandings, and what is the value of learning and correcting our mistakes and misunderstandings if not that we can do better?

How much time would be enough time to study for a college final if failing it meant you were never allowed to take another college class ever? What would be good about setting up such a test? e.g., Are there too many people taking college classes? Are the professors tired of teaching students who don’t do well on the test? (The test is online, effectively, and self-scoring, so it’s not like they are tired of spending their time grading bad tests…) What is the value of eternal, irrevocable failure?

Yes, holding us accountable, blah, blah. What is the value of holding us accountable, though? Honestly. And if it were so incredibly freaking valuable, why not show us, in vivid mystic-experience, weeping-statues-and-lances-of-light detail the souls suffering in hell so we are moved by the reality of the consequences? How is belief in such consequences more valuable and powerful than knowledge of such consequences?

 

[openmind77]

Long time or short time is relative. God gives us sufficient time to choose. Otherwise he wouldn’t be fair , would he?

Now look at ourselves. Why do we need to procrastinate?..

Suppose a seventeen year old commits murder (with full knowledge etc) and then gets hit by a bus - so no time for repentance. This can happen and probably has.

So has he had sufficient time? Is it fair to judge and condemn him to hell for eternity?

 

[openmind77]

I agree with you, unsurprisingly, that this must not be the right understanding of how the system works. I, too, am effectively asking the same question as you, but attempting to see how an alternative understanding could work out without having to step outside the Catholic toolkit to find one.

My first allegiance is to God, second is to sacred books and third is to a church.

If there is anything that the last two say which contradicts my belief in a just, loving, merciful, kind God then it has to be not true.

Not necessarily a deliberate untruth, but a mistake or misunderstanding - it is only human to err and last two are all created by men.

The fact of a loving, just, merciful God should never be allowed to be contradicted by any person or any institution.

 

[ericc]

Suppose a seventeen year old commits murder (with full knowledge etc) and then gets hit by a bus - so no time for repentance. This can happen and probably has.

So has he had sufficient time? Is it fair to judge and condemn him to hell for eternity?

Isn’t it fair if you gambled and you lost you have to pay for it? In my previous post, I mentioned that since we knew the rules and we decided to do it anyway, including not knowing when God pulls the plug, isn’t that a foolhardy bet? But isn’t this the problem? We all want to sin and see how far we can get away with it while hoping not to get caught permanently in the web of hell for eternity aka Heaven Can Wait. Meanwhile, here we are looking for that escape clause.

Obviously, we do not know the criteria that God uses when pulling the plug but if he did that to all who just committed a mortal sin, he wouldn’t be doing himself a favor if he wants to populate heaven more than hell.

Anyway, I always default to God is just/omniscient defense. He knows who is going to repent and who is not. So, the best bet is always to side with the house. The house always win! When you opt out of club membership in God’s heavenly club, you might never (have the chance) be invited in again.

 

[mikekle]

Suppose a seventeen year old commits murder (with full knowledge etc) and then gets hit by a bus - so no time for repentance. This can happen and probably has.

So has he had sufficient time? Is it fair to judge and condemn him to hell for eternity?

Absolutely not! I truly believe there is a small time frame given to all us upon our death, probably happens right before our brains die for good, that we are give a final chance to ask for forgiveness.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Isn’t it fair if you gambled and you lost you have to pay for it? In my previous post, I mentioned that since we knew the rules and we decided to do it anyway, including not knowing when God pulls the plug, isn’t that a foolhardy bet? But isn’t this the problem? We all want to sin and see how far we can get away with it while hoping not to get caught permanently in the web of hell for eternity aka Heaven Can Wait. Meanwhile, here we are looking for that escape clause.

Obviously, we do not know the criteria that God uses when pulling the plug but if he did that to all who just committed a mortal sin, he wouldn’t be doing himself a favor if he wants to populate heaven more than hell.

Anyway, I always default to God is just/omniscient defense. He knows who is going to repent and who is not. So, the best bet is always to side with the house. The house always win! When you opt out of club membership in God’s heavenly club, you might never (have the chance) be invited in again.

If that is the way God runs things, and he is ultimately good, then it seems to follow that we should model stuff down here on that standard as well, to the best we are able. From now on, no judicial appeals courts, no stays of execution, no second attempt at the bar exam, no divorce, no changing your major at college. No whatever. Apparently doing any of those things only encourages and enables people to not take that decision and their behavior seriously and make the right bets beforehand. Yeah, that would totally make a more compassionate world. I can see it all…

 

[Contarini]

How strange it would be for us to judge a child, choose their future career, their happiness, their everything, based on how they behaved or felt or what they said during one random period of 5 minutes back when they were in 3rd grade.

Now, if our souls live for eternity, as is indicated in the tradition of faith, can we make sense out of how it would seem “just” when God is doing, as far as we can tell, the same thing? What are 70 years compared to eternity but a blink? What are we to God but naive, feeble-minded children? Why then give us the power in such a situation to determine our eternal fate?

Let me be clear: I’m not saying he shouldn’t. I’m not saying I’d do it differently. I’m just asking how we can modify or interpret the situation so that it fits with what we think of as fair or merciful.

You’re thinking of eternity as if it were infinitely prolonged time. But it isn’t. It’s something else entirely.

This is all the time we have. It isn’t a tiny sliver of our total time. It’s our time, period.

Edwin

 

[ericc]

Sure, there need to be deadlines for accountability to measure our progress (or lack thereof), and consequences should certainly be imposed if we are lagging. However, what is the value of consequences if not that they help us learn and correct our mistakes and misunderstandings, and what is the value of learning and correcting our mistakes and misunderstandings if not that we can do better?

So are you advocating “Heaven can wait?” as being fair to God? Let me sin for X amount of time, then give me some time to repent?

Perhaps you are confused between learning and not knowing. If you know doing Act A is a sin and you do it, you didn’t really learn anything new, did you? What new thing did you learn? What learning from mistake process is triggered? You already knew! You didn’t learn anything new other than another better way to sin. You only do not know when you will be caught and need to pay up. How many of these sins was the first sin or was it a repeat? It would be a wonderful excuse if you can honestly say to God I didn’t know that was a sin, even if that was the very first sin. But after countless repeated sins with no sign of remorse, hard to belief you want to quibble over learning from your mistakes. My experience has been you never learn if you never got a negative feedback. ie put your palms on a hot iron, it hurts. How would you learn from your mistake if you commit a crime, enriched yourself say a couple of million bucks, enjoying life and never got caught? How many are enjoying illicit adulterous sex with beautiful, more “compatible” sweet young things while “waiting to learn from mistakes”. How many are repeating abortions? Waiting to learn from mistakes with no negative feedback? Pure nonsense. How many in prison are repeating criminals? And that is with negative feedback too.

Yes, holding us accountable, blah, blah. What is the value of holding us accountable, though? Honestly. And if it were so incredibly freaking valuable, why not show us, in vivid mystic-experience, weeping-statues-and-lances-of-light detail the souls suffering in hell so we are moved by the reality of the consequences? How is belief in such consequences more valuable and powerful than knowledge of such consequences?

Then you are compelled to believe, which means you are not exercising freewill. It is hard to see your point. Are you advocating accountability or not? If you commit a sin, don’t you deserved to be punished? Why would experiencing a mystic-experience or seeing a weeping statue change anything? During Jesus 3 years of ministry performing miracles in person, many saw what he did and yet many turned away. Even high ranking temple authorities plotted against him rather than side with him. What makes you think knowing and seeing such things would stop a person from sinning?

How much time would be enough time to study for a college final if failing it meant you were never allowed to take another college class ever? What would be good about setting up such a test? e.g., Are there too many people taking college classes? Are the professors tired of teaching students who don’t do well on the test? (The test is online, effectively, and self-scoring, so it’s not like they are tired of spending their time grading bad tests…) What is the value of eternal, irrevocable failure?

Yep, that sounds like those who enrolled in college and but never studied for their exams and hoping to pass their exams. Unlike professors, God knows whether you studied or not. He knows how much brain DNA he gave you. Mark 12:41-44. He knows how to grade properly. He wouldn’t be fair to let you pass through the gates of heaven when you didn’t do what he tells you to while others slogged/suffered/etc?

 

[Neoplatonist]

So are you advocating “Heaven can wait?” as being fair to God? Let me sin for X amount of time, then give me some time to repent?

Perhaps you are confused between learning and not knowing. If you know doing Act A is a sin and you do it, you didn’t really learn anything new, did you? What new thing did you learn? What learning from mistake process is triggered? You already knew! You didn’t learn anything new other than another better way to sin. You only do not know when you will be caught and need to pay up. How many of these sins was the first sin or was it a repeat? It would be a wonderful excuse if you can honestly say to God I didn’t know that was a sin, even if that was the very first sin. But after countless repeated sins with no sign of remorse, hard to belief you want to quibble over learning from your mistakes. My experience has been you never learn if you never got a negative feedback. ie put your palms on a hot iron, it hurts. How would you learn from your mistake if you commit a crime, enriched yourself say a couple of million bucks, enjoying life and never got caught? How many are enjoying illicit adulterous sex with beautiful, more “compatible” sweet young things while “waiting to learn from mistakes”. How many are repeating abortions? Waiting to learn from mistakes with no negative feedback? Pure nonsense. How many in prison are repeating criminals? And that is with negative feedback too.

Please do not confuse my problem with eternal suffering as being a problem with allowing any suffering. By all means let there be consequences, but consequences that will improve the learning or increase it. (I sincerely hope God is a better teacher than our pathetically dysfunctional prison system.) And then give them a chance to benefit from the improvement to their learning and motivation. How does it benefit God OR people to a have a system where they go to a horrible stalag-prison forever after? What kind of parent would choose a system like that for their children, or think such a system was the only way for their children to exercise true freedom or responsibility??

Then you are compelled to believe, which means you are not exercising freewill. It is hard to see your point. Are you advocating accountability or not? If you commit a sin, don’t you deserved to be punished? Why would experiencing a mystic-experience or seeing a weeping statue change anything? During Jesus 3 years of ministry performing miracles in person, many saw what he did and yet many turned away. Even high ranking temple authorities plotted against him rather than side with him. What makes you think knowing and seeing such things would stop a person from sinning?

Sorry I didn’t complete the analogy. What I meant was a vision of Hell or a feeling of the suffering that our evil acts cause that is as vivid as some of those other experiences have been described to be.

“Deserve to be punished.” No. What the hell is the point of that? For us or God to vent out our anger at what was done? If a child cuts themselves using bad knife safety, do they “deserve” to be beaten with a stick? What if they hurt another child because they were being unsafe with a knife, then should we beat them with a stick? That mentality is barbaric. What they “deserve” is to have someone teach them.

Yep, that sounds like those who enrolled in college and but never studied for their exams and hoping to pass their exams. Unlike professors, God knows whether you studied or not. He knows how much brain DNA he gave you. Mark 12:41-44. He knows how to grade properly. He wouldn’t be fair to let you pass through the gates of heaven when you didn’t do what he tells you to while others slogged/suffered/etc?

Who said anyone should be allowed to graduate without passing the test? I certainly didn’t. If they fail the exam, let them go work at some horrible job for a while AND have the opportunity to compare and contrast their lives and work with people who DID study and DID pass the exam, then give them a chance to study and re-test. How would that be so horrible?