Why are you an Atheist? - Catholic Answers Live - 12Nov2018

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this thread still going? he admits he’s not even talking about God of creation that Catholics believe, he’s refuting divinity of some type of material God, which is required to take physical form. For all we know he’s talking about a politician 😄 in which case I’d agree they’re no deity.
 
If God has ever been demonstrably real for one human being then He is real for all human beings.

He has been demonstrably real for many many people for millennia and so He is real.

For me too but you’d have to take my word for it.
 
goout said:
Faith is a virtue because it leads to ever deepening relationship between the faithful,
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Yes you have tribal unity over a concept that is an identifying factor for that group. Like how Green Lantern comic fans geek out together about the love of the story but still argue over characters and adventures.

But we are talking about a claim that is made about reality correct? So what about faith claims of reality that you could not hold? Name me one claim about reality that you could not hold on faith? Then how do you determine if that claims is actually correct when making an internal model of reality against what reality actually demonstrates to be the case?
goout said:
trusting the other’s whole person,
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So faith is trust. Trust comes from experience of a history with each other. So just use trust. That’s why I distinguished the difference between Belief, Hope, and Faith. Belief is trusting that historical experiences of experiments to discover unchanging truths of reality will not change.
You can have trust in people once the show you the worst they can be and you know you can live with that error in character. If all that means is that they will be lazy on a day off, so what. But if that means they will neglect you or your children, you can’t live with that because you don’t trust them to care for you. But all that has a history of demonstrated character events.
goout said:
Perhaps you see virtue as merely a negative restriction on the passions of a person.
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No I don’t.
goout said:
it is a living thing between persons.
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Correct, that is trust. Every day you have to justify that someone’s trust in you is warranted based on your consistent nature in light of a changing world and changing issues that come up.
 
I find the idea of having to do a mantra of “I believe, please reveal yourself” is distasteful. Imagine if you were a child and you had to do this just so that your parents would appear. They heard you the first time, but are making you feel anxious that you might have actually abandoned them for reasons you don’t know and for reasons you are afraid you did. The threat of the parent leaving their child is real and true to them because the parent has told them every day that they will leave the child if the child messes up. So "I believe, I believe, I believe,…please don’t leave please don’t leave please don’t leave…makes my skin crawl just picturing that child having to do that for its parents to stay around. This is what your deity and your religion threatens people with every day. Sorry but if you have power to do right by people and you are a moral agent, you have an obligation to do right by them regardless of their attitude towards you. Kids can be brats one day but your consistent nurturing nature to them will show them how to not be brats, but you never leave them do you. The parent that leaves is evil and abusive.
 
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God hasn’t left you. God is waiting for you to come back. The “mantra” you speak of is meant to help someone open up to belief. You have many incorrect views of Catholic theology that make it apparent that most of your Church exposure has been to poorly catechized or is a subscriber to some low-church protestant theology, and I hope your time here on CAF helps you see our beliefs more accurately.
 
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Damian said:
This is what your deity and your religion threatens people with every day
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Nope, you’re not addressing our religion God, remember? You declined because you insisted you’re only addressing a God who physically manifests himself. So you’re not talking about God of Catholicism. Now if you’d like to address God of Catholicism or Thomas Aquinas argument you decided not to address, go ahead.
 
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Then I missed the point she was making and she is missing the point I was making. Talking past each other it seems. I took it that she was arguing the point of defining something into existence. I disagree with that. You can define where to look for an idea about reality. But you still have to find it in reality to see if your logical model matched up. But she’s not arguing that. She’s arguing that her logical model is just as valid as what reality demonstrates.
Is that what you are pointing out here? That she believes that logical models of reality, that are untested and unfalsifiable, are just as valid to believe is a justified conclusion about reality? Its just not the case. Otherwise, we’d still have snake oil salesmen running around. Which we do, but they’re televangelists now.
 
I’m pointing out that your basic worldview is self-contradictory.

Yeah, as long as you’re insulting us as brainwashed, I won’t talk to you anymore. Ad hominem has no place in civilized discussion.
 
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Arwing said:
I don’t see why the fact that we see effects of God (e.g. creation) at successive points in time means that God himself had “acted” or “decided” differently at different points.
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Those aren’t the effects of a deity, its the affects of Thanos and his infinity stones. Also internally logically consistent argument that can not be demonstrated in reality.
Arwing said:
I have never heard a definition like the one you describe used in serious theology to represent the Abrahamic God (“after first deciding to create…” etc).
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It’s always not the deity the nay-sayer is talking about isn’t it. But the theists never present a coherent positive descriptor of the deity itself. Ex: how to describe, say a glove. Well it’s made of a bendable material, like cloth, leather, rubber. It fits to the size and shape of a human hand. Usually stops at the wrist but can go further up the forearm of a human. Etc. All positive descriptive aspects. Now if I said: It’s not a shoe. It’s always been, Its being itself, it has all the positive characteristics of people even though we have no evidence of a mind outside of a physical brain, etc. This is all gibberish nonsense to me about the essence of a glove. The last one being logically incoherent from what reality demonstrates. IE: married bachelor.
 
So you are claiming to have access to information that is hidden and restricted to me. Okay so how do you demonstrate your claim that doesn’t require testimony? I can testify that Thanos and the Infinity stones did it and it was revealed to me personally as well.
 
Okay so you see my assumptions of this entity. If they are wrong, then present what your deity is. If I look at the information what makes you think I’ll not land on this again? So you tell me, it’s your best friend after all.
 
I may be as thick as a whale omelette but I don’t understand what you have asked me. Can you rephrase in the most basic way possible please?
 
See my previous posts. Not repeating myself. They’re all above in the thread, including the ones you chose to ignore on Thomas Aquinas proof of existence of God, and God = not your “deity” which technically could include a blade of grass (physically manifests itself, per your words)
 
He’s just trolling. He can’t refute existence of God so is just trolling .
 
Arwing said:
I have never heard a definition like the one you describe used in serious theology to represent the Abrahamic God
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Yes because he’s discussing a materialistic deity (whatever that is), not God of Catholicism or Biblical God.
 
You claim to have access to evidence that I don’t, such as the entity has actually revealed itself to you. If apologetics was all that is needed, then why real itself to you then? If it can reveal itself to you, then why not to everyone else? The devil had direct knowledge of this deity’s existence and still chose to not have a relationship with someone of that character. Everyone should have this amount of information. Otherwise, the argument of testimony is no different than the kid claiming to have a girlfriend in the next town over than no one ever meets.
 
Because you can’t explain how we can actually determine the difference between your deity and thanos. I can demonstrate my claims about reality, but you can’t. It’s all just unfalsifiable internally consistent logic. That’s what every fantasy novel relies on for people to believe the stories. Also, your actually stating that your deity can’t reveal itself to anyone in a way that they would believe it is part of reality then? I’m telling you what it would take for me to start to believe you, but I’d still have to find a way to determine the difference between your claimed deity, a sub deity, a demi god, or a superiorly advanced technology. I don’t know how I could do that but your deity should know this and should be able to tell you this. How about you pray to it and let me know what it says since you’re one of it’s boys.
 
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