WHY are you NOT a Catholic?

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I am not a Roman Catholic because the RCC’s teachings do not allign with scripture, especially with regards to justification. Instead of teaching justification as the forensic declaration of being righteous on account of Christ’s active and passive obedience, justification involves becoming ontologically righteous. the RCC also teaches that man’s works are meritorious, contrary to what scripture says.

I am a Lutheran because the Lutheran church teaches that Christ did all the work for me.
 
The Church is based on scripture. Its sacraments are scriptural and so are most of its practices. The rest comes from the apostolic tradition which was talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Sola Scriptura on the other hand is completely unbiblical. Likewise scripture teaches that faith without works is dead in the book of James.
 
drac 16 - Let me attempt to answer your criticisms regarding the Catholic Church, as you raise them in your post - but firstly I am puzzled as to your liking of ‘our’ inspiration regarding the Bible, in the ‘light’ of Martin Luther’s rejection of 7 books of the Old Testament, and his plans to also turf out two or three from the New Testament - the Book of James and Acts being a couple, if my memory serves me right. It appears that ‘vandalism’ of the NT was only prevented by a general consensus among the other ‘protestant leaderships’, that such an editing would be perhaps going ‘too far’.

As for ‘sola scriptura’ rejection, well does it occur to you that Jesus did not leave the early Christians/Catholics with a New Testament when he ascended to Heaven, what He left was His Divine Spirit, invested in 12 Apostles - with Simon Peter being the first amongst those ‘equals’.

As for statues and pictures - well those are there much as photos of our loved ones in more recent times serve - to enhance and focus our thoughts and feelings as we pray to God, and in the case of Our Blessed Lady, the saints and angels, for their powerful intercessions. Forget all that ‘Reformation’ propaganda that ‘we’ pray to or worship statues - the same goes for those claims ‘we’ worship Mary. -As for our special devotion and love for Our Blessed Mother {“son behold thy mother”], well Jesus Himself held her in very high esteem, as indeed any loving son should regarding his mother - Mary more so than other mothers, since she was/is in effect the ‘Ark of the New Covenant’/the ‘Ark of the fulfilment of the Covenant’ - made by God without stain of sin, since she was to bear the Divine made flesh.

It is interesting to ponder upon Mary’s role in the scheme of things - since Jesus is the King of Kings, then Mary is the Queen Mother to the King of Kings. Jesus was/is also the very best of all Jewish ‘Kings’ - even above David and Solomon. From the time of Solomon, the kings of Judea had a throne beside them upon which their mother would officially be sat - their mothers were also given the position of ‘advocate for the people’. It is also interesting that Jesus’ first recorded ‘public’ miracle was at Cana, and at the behest of His mother.

It is also ‘tradition’, from the very earliest of Christian times, that Mary was assumed body as well as soul into Heaven - where is Mary’s body? Don’t you think that if her body stayed on earth, that it would have been treated with at least as much reverence as those of so many of the official saints and martyrs?

p.s. God is up to being ‘moved’ by righteous prayer and advocacy. The Holy Family is a model we should all seek to be like.
 
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MountCarmel said:
Martin Luther’s rejection of 7 books of the Old Testament, and his plans to also turf out two or three from the New Testament - the Book of James and Acts being a couple, if my memory serves me right. It appears that ‘vandalism’ of the NT was only prevented by a general consensus among the other ‘protestant leaderships’, that such an editing would be perhaps going ‘too far’.
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Martin Luther’s translation contained/contains 74 books, all of the books typical of the western canon (which has always been different from the eastern canon) and the Prayer of Manasseh.
I have often heard of the “others talked Luther out of it” thing, but have never scene a source. What was yours?
MountCarmel said:
As for ‘sola scriptura’ rejection, well does it occur to you that Jesus did not leave the early Christians/Catholics with a New Testament when he ascended to Heaven, what He left was His Divine Spirit, invested in 12 Apostles - with Simon Peter being the first amongst those ‘equals’.
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Sola scriptura does not dispute the apostles and their role , but to imply that the NT was an afterthought of the apostles and not intended by Christ would need a citation.
MountCarmel said:
As for statues and pictures - well those are there much as photos of our loved ones in more recent times serve - to enhance and focus our thoughts and feelings as we pray to God, and in the case of Our Blessed Lady, the saints and angels, for their powerful intercessions.
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Lutherans and Anglicans both rejected the iconoclasm of the Reformed movement. This is another example of an inaccurate use of the term Protestant.
 
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Why am I not Catholic you ask? Well I learned how to really study the Bible. The language, the meaning of the original words, The understanding of context, both historical and subject the Bible became clear. Biblical conflicts were resolved, the different periods and different methods God used for Israel became clear, and the current age came into focus. The confusion from earlier teachings and theology vanished once I learned how to actually study Scripture. And one thing I quickly learned was that most denominations have failed to properly interpret the Word of God as it was inspired and given to us for our edification.
 
Do you love your mother, drac? We love Mary because she is our Lord and Saviour’s mother and became the Mother of the Church when Jesus gave the care of His mother to the Disciple He loved best. We don’t idolize her. But we definitely love her because we love Jesus.
 
THis is one of the RECENT concessions to Catholicism. And we ARE grateful for it.

Continued blessings,
Patrick
 
If [??] I understand your objections correctly, your faith beliefs teaches that Christ by His Passion & Death has already merited you “you”; all that GOD demands for your “justification”…

And you “parrot” the belief that your position is biblical; …Are YOU aware the the bible is a Catholic? Book?

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching…Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost"

So recognizing that your beliefs are a POST reformation 16th Century invention of very moral, unguided by the HS, MEN, who decided to challenge CATHOLIC beliefs that are HS guided: Mt.16:18-19, Jn 17:17-20, Mt 28:119-20, Eph. 2:19-22, Eph. 4:1-6 which precisely challenge your position

ADD TO THIS that you’re missing out on the opportunity to actually meet Jesus Christ IN PERSON in Catholic Holy Communion which these passages TESTIFY TO [they ARE Literal] Mt. 26: 26-28. Mk. 14: 22-24, Lk 22: 17:20, John 6:47-58, 66-70, 1st Cor, 11:23-30, Christ and 5 different Catholic Authors of the NT TRYING to teach you, God’s TRUTHS.

Then you have to explain away these, and other biblical teachings

Lk 14:27 And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Mk 8: 34 And calling the multitude together with his disciples, he said to them**: If any man will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me**

Mt 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples**: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.**

Mt 5:16 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven

Lk 9:23And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me

Then knowing that the more often a teaching is TAUGHT; the greater is its significance before God.

Then on Sin and SIN Forgiveness GOD’s precisely taught way which too is biblical:

SEE NEXT POST
 
CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

1John.1: 6- 7If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin

1John.5: 16 - 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Jn. 20:19-23 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

So then it aeema reasonable to ask if this was a Jesus INNOVATION

NO it was not:

Exodus 28:1
Take unto thee also Aaron thy brother with his sons, from among the children of Israel, that they may minister to me in the priest’ s office: Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

Leviticus 5:16
And he shall make good the damage itself which he hath done, and shall add the fifth part besides, delivering it to the priest, who shall pray for him, offering the ram, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:18
He shall offer of the flocks a ram without blemish to the priest, according to the measure and estimation of the sin: and the priest shall pray for him, because he did it ignorantly: and it shall be forgiven him,

The OT Priest were required for sin “forgiveness” ACTUALLY those sins were “covered over”; which GOD as is HIS choice, accepted for their forgiveness., because of their degree of Ignorance and heard-headed; hard-hearted ungraced dispositions.

Rom.6:14 -15 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

NOW under grace Christ APPOINTED Priest are actually empowered to forgive and or retain [not forgive] mans sins and GOD has committed to honor their decisions… So the MESSAGE of “PEACE BE WITH YOU” is critical to understanding that God;s PEACE is the Goal of Sacramental Confession.

My friend, o=you have very much to pray and think about is seeking GOD"S DIVINE will for your salvation.

GBY,
Patrick
 
PJM said:
THis is one of the RECENT concessions to Catholicism. And we ARE grateful for it.

Continued blessings,
Patrick
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What is? That faith without works is dead? Lutherans have never denied that. The confessions have numerous references to the necessity of good works. I’m lucky there is no copyright protection of those sections since I’ve posted them here so often over the years.
And, of course, Luther’s commentary on Galatians 5:6.
**Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
**
So it isn’t recent at all, and it isn’t a concession. It is scriptural.
 
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Donaldm said:
Why am I not Catholic you ask? Well I learned how to really study the Bible. The language, the meaning of the original words, The understanding of context, both historical and subject the Bible became clear. Biblical conflicts were resolved, the different periods and different methods God used for Israel became clear, and the current age came into focus. The confusion from earlier teachings and theology vanished once I learned how to actually study Scripture. And one thing I quickly learned was that most denominations have failed to properly interpret the Word of God as it was inspired and given to us for our edification.
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with due respect, there are a lot of Catholics and others who really know how to read and study scripture. They know the Latin and Greek, the Hebrew and even German.
Honestly, the claim that you know how to interpret scripture and others don’t comes off rather egotistical.
 
Why are you arbitrarily switching the topic from justification to the question of whether or not the RCC wrote the bible? Instead of addressing my arguments, you change the topic and flood me with bible verses. You don’t even carefully exegete them.
 
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Wow, your claim that RCC (Roman Catholic Church)'s teachings “do not align with scripture” is definitely false & somewhat offensive to me (as a Catholic) [would you like it if I did that to you about you being from a different religion?. ~I’d rather not criticize you the way you’re criticizing/complaining about the Catholic Church (which is my religion & any other Catholic on these forums), since we’re all different & come from different upbringings. Why not simply discuss what you don’t understand, rather than criticizing it for what it’s not!] If your intent on this forum was to judge the Catholic Church for what it simply isn’t, why did you join this Catholic forums website in the first place? May I ask what factual evidence can you prove with your argument? The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a great source of reference (out of multiple) that provides what those of us Catholics believe and strive to integrate within our daily lives one step at a time.

Yes, it is vital to recognize and implement our lives with Christ in knowing that He did it for us selflessly and lovingly, but He also continues to teach us (no matter what religion) daily to give back to Him selflessly in more ways than one …such as loving Him above all things, loving others more than we love ourselves, more often self-giving rather than self-getting, giving Him the honor and glory that He deserves, etc… giving back what He already gave to each one of us, selflessly. He is the Way, the Truth, & the Life. Dear brother-in-Christ/sister-in-Christ, I hope that there is a better reason that provides a distinctiveness for you choosing to remain a Lutheran, for what Lutherans believe… in each faith journey, there is much more than just the surface level teachings that provide stability no matter the storm (any life experience). Praying for you.
 
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I give credit to PJM for taking the time to respond to your post, thoughtfully- whether you agree with the post or not. Since you tend to focus more on what scripture says than anything else, it makes sense to provide bible verses to prove some of his points… why not just be thankful for someone taking the time to discuss spiritual matters that do involve the bible (but not entirely), rather than you continuing to criticize about people not answering your questions the way you’d like them to answer. None of us are perfect and none of us have all the answers to everything, but we can try to the best of our abilities with Christ (of course)… be grateful for the effort anyways. So far your posts come across as pessimistic and angry for some reason & I’m sorry if you feel that way, but those negative thoughts aren’t from Christ anyways, so it is unnecessary to further complain of such. There are layers of the soul within you that perhaps needs mending.

It is clear within some of your posts that you are seeking justice and perhaps revenge (or something of the sort) to try going against the Roman Catholic Church, and it’s definitely clear that you just want the answers without making the effort to truly look it up yourself, open-mindedly. There is much more to the Catholic Church than just what people see on the surface level- much depth with rich soil consistently.
 
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Actually there is no egotism involved. Luther was egotistical to a fault. Along with being somewhat paranoid as to his salvation.
Calvin was obsessed with Augustine who unfortunately interpreted scripture allegorically.
The Catholic interpretation of scripture is clouded by the hierarchical councils and dogmas created, in my opinion erroneously, from false theology and poor exegesis.

My point is that when all scripture is understood as inspired by God, and read literally, and understanding that words matter in unison with the understanding of the distinct periods of God’s working with creation, His chosen people, and the gentiles scripture becomes clear and self-interprets.
The errors of both Catholic and catholic like churches along with the churches born from the reformation are based in an allegorical interpretation of scripture.

I will be happy to debate this with you further.

God Bless.
 
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Donaldm said:
The Catholic interpretation of scripture is clouded by the hierarchical councils and dogmas created, in my opinion erroneously, from false theology and poor exegesis.
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Since the new format doesn’t provide it, I am continuing Anglican. What tradition are you a member of?

Why is their interpretation "clouded ", and yours not?
There are some basic teachings of the universal Church defined in those councils: the Trinity, the nature and person of Christ, etc.

Again, why should I believe your interpretation over a principle established by these ecumenical councils and accepted by virtually all of Christendom?
Donaldm said:
The errors of both Catholic and catholic like churches along with the churches born from the reformation are based in an allegorical interpretation of scripture.
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So, a literal reading: Luke 22
**And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: _this is my body._ 23And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. 24And he said unto them, _This is my blood_ of the new testament, which is shed for many. **

I take it you are good with the literal understanding of this?
 
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Donaldm said:
This is Kingdom oriented. We are not in the Kingdom; we are in the Period of Grace. The Cup and the Bread is a memorial to the Sacrifice of Christ Jesus.
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That is an allegorical interpretation.
A literal interpretation is , This is my body. He is holding the bread. This IS my body. As Luther said, “Is is is.” And,
"Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? "
 
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