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nearlycatholic
Guest
I’ve gotten a couple really good books. One by Keating and the other by Cardinal Gibbons. I will have to pick up yours.
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nearlycatholic
Guest
I am a reader! I’ll be awaiting more of your (name removed by moderator)ut.
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SalamKhan
Guest
@PJM I asked to what extent can reason alone come to knowledge of God in general. You did not answer this.
What you instead mentioned, is one argument, which is valid but it is only a simple proof; there is a much stronger argument for the existence of God (first put forward by Ibn Sina/Avicenna), and this is what I find beautiful about the intellect (this argument was also known by Thomas Aquinas and is one of his five ways, albeit slightly in a simplified form).
What you instead mentioned, is one argument, which is valid but it is only a simple proof; there is a much stronger argument for the existence of God (first put forward by Ibn Sina/Avicenna), and this is what I find beautiful about the intellect (this argument was also known by Thomas Aquinas and is one of his five ways, albeit slightly in a simplified form).
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njlisa
Guest
We ask Mary, our Heavenly Mother, for intercession. Jesus’
first miracle is reported in John 2:1-11. If we’re looking
for the Blessed Mother’s role in this miracle, she told
the waiters: “Do whatever he tells you.” In other words,
Mary points us to Jesus – not toward herself. We never
go astray when we ask Mary for her intercession.
I hope that helps. God bless you.
first miracle is reported in John 2:1-11. If we’re looking
for the Blessed Mother’s role in this miracle, she told
the waiters: “Do whatever he tells you.” In other words,
Mary points us to Jesus – not toward herself. We never
go astray when we ask Mary for her intercession.
I hope that helps. God bless you.
I’m still waiting for you to answer mine.
And I’d still like to know how it is that your understanding of God’s general attributes is correct.
You made the charge that the Trinity and Incarnation run counter to the general attributes of a God, but you haven’t explained how you know this.
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PJM
Guest
While your at it [picking up books], you might also pick up mine:
CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN
A book of essential Catholic Catechesis by Patrick Miron
CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN
A book of essential Catholic Catechesis by Patrick Miron
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PJM
Guest
My FRIEND, I will as soon as I figure out HOW to do so
I tried your avatar and filled out a POST but it would not accept your user name either typed in or copy & pasted [your the 5th person I have TRIED to PM with NO success.
I just requested help on what the message page is and how do I use it from the MODS, God willing I’ll eventually figure our just HOW to PM
In the mean time I have completed my reply on Purgatory for you and will post it as a reply to your other POST
Please be looking for it
GB
Patrick
I tried your avatar and filled out a POST but it would not accept your user name either typed in or copy & pasted [your the 5th person I have TRIED to PM with NO success.
I just requested help on what the message page is and how do I use it from the MODS, God willing I’ll eventually figure our just HOW to PM
In the mean time I have completed my reply on Purgatory for you and will post it as a reply to your other POST
Please be looking for it
GB
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
PURGATORY [on 3 or 4 POST ]
Dear friend, just as the term “bible” in not in the Bible; so to the term purgatory is missing & a later theological text for our benefit. … That said, the teachings on Purgatory do exist in both the OT and the NT**. 2 Maccabees 12: 41-46 DOUAY Catholic Bible is the ORIGIN of the written records of this Doctrine.**
Purgatory exist because of God’s Mercy & and love of humanity. 1Tim.2: 3 – 4
“This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
Protestant unbelief stems from ignorance of the very natures of God and sin.
They fail to grasp that God defined as “God is ALL Good things Perfected”; in a Moral & theological sense “obligates” Himself to do everything HE is able to do to save souls. Reformation deductions from logic alone, unguided by the HS, invented OSAS, Christ HAS already done everything necessary for our salvation, and Substitutory-salvation; each denies TRUTH, & Sin Forgiveness God’s WAY with God’s Mercy. Then they miss also the meaning & consequences of Sin, & of Sin-Forgiveness GOD”S WAY. 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & John 20:19-23, which follow OT Traditions. Exo 26:1, Lev 5: 16-18
Purgatory exist precisely so that more Souls, which must be either perfect Or Perfected, as God is Perfect & will allow no imperfect Soul into his Presence.
**Matt.5: 48 “**You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”
The ignorance of the nature of sin then leads to a further lack of understanding of GODS ways. Temporal Punishment that ALL sins accrue & imposed directly by GOD is also denied, adding to the risk of either a very long stay in purgatory, or hell if also in Mortal sin.
Anyone who dies with an unconfessed & unforgiven MORTAL sin has chosen for themselves eternal Hell. 1 Jn 5:16-17, Jn 20:19-23
Without Purgatory all souls not perfected at the time of their demise not being self-condemned to hell, BUT ALSO, being imperfect, & not meriting heaven would spend eternity in Limbo. No pain, but also no Beatific Vison. And THAT is specifically why God created Purgatory. To be clear this is NOT “second chance” after death. It is a preexisting condition of God’s Perfect Judgment.
It is as the Trinity chooses, a 3td Option for souls that will permit them to be perfected Souls, and on God’s time-table, enable them to ascend into heaven.
So GOD’S Perfect Divine Justice grants each Soul 3 options: Hell, Purgatory [& eventual heaven], and directly into heaven.
SEE NEXT POST
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PJM
Guest
Part 2 REPLY on Purgatory
OT Priest needed God directly for “forgiveness” which really was just a “covering-over of their sins, which because of their ignorance, & hard heads & hearts, without the benefit of grace; God accepted. **Rom.6: 14-15 “**For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”
NT Priest, empowered with the HS actually can directly forgive our sins in GODS NAME. John 20:23 “If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained. THIS IS TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. Mt 10:1-2, John 17:19
PLEASE SEE NEXT POST REPLY ALSO ON PURGATORY
OT Priest needed God directly for “forgiveness” which really was just a “covering-over of their sins, which because of their ignorance, & hard heads & hearts, without the benefit of grace; God accepted. **Rom.6: 14-15 “**For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!”
NT Priest, empowered with the HS actually can directly forgive our sins in GODS NAME. John 20:23 “If YOU forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if YOU retain the sins of any, they are retained. THIS IS TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. Mt 10:1-2, John 17:19
PLEASE SEE NEXT POST REPLY ALSO ON PURGATORY
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PJM
Guest
PURGATORY pt 3
Each of the following verses speaks of Purgatory, as ALL souls MUST be either Perfect, like GOD, or perfected, made like GOD in order to attain the Beatific Vision 1 Jn. 1:6-7, 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23
Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
1John.3: 2 to 3 “Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”
1 Cor. 3: 13-14 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
2nd. Cor. 7:1 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God
“The Origins of the Doctrine of Purgatory
In additions to Holy Scripture, there are Apocryphal books which were left out of Holy Canon as well as Lost Books of the Bible. It is the Apocryphal book entitled The Maccabees that contains the integral beginnings of the doctrine of purgatory. 2 Mac. 12:38-46
What Is the Doctrine of Purgatory?
Purgatory is the intermediate state between heaven and hell where those of the dead who have not sinned mortally 1 Jn 5:16-17, Jn 20:19-23 to warrant hell, but have not yet purified themselves enough in goodness to enter into heaven, go to prepare and purify themselves of sin.
Why Is Purgatory so Important?
Purgatory is importance for humanity because it presents a third option to heaven (total holiness) and hell (total evil)
According to the Council of Trent,
“Since the CC instructed by the HS, has, following the sacred writings & the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ,”
Each of the following verses speaks of Purgatory, as ALL souls MUST be either Perfect, like GOD, or perfected, made like GOD in order to attain the Beatific Vision 1 Jn. 1:6-7, 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23
Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
1John.3: 2 to 3 “Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”
1 Cor. 3: 13-14 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
2nd. Cor. 7:1 “Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God
“The Origins of the Doctrine of Purgatory
In additions to Holy Scripture, there are Apocryphal books which were left out of Holy Canon as well as Lost Books of the Bible. It is the Apocryphal book entitled The Maccabees that contains the integral beginnings of the doctrine of purgatory. 2 Mac. 12:38-46
What Is the Doctrine of Purgatory?
Purgatory is the intermediate state between heaven and hell where those of the dead who have not sinned mortally 1 Jn 5:16-17, Jn 20:19-23 to warrant hell, but have not yet purified themselves enough in goodness to enter into heaven, go to prepare and purify themselves of sin.
Why Is Purgatory so Important?
Purgatory is importance for humanity because it presents a third option to heaven (total holiness) and hell (total evil)
According to the Council of Trent,
“Since the CC instructed by the HS, has, following the sacred writings & the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught in sacred councils and very recently in this ecumenical council that there is a purgatory, and that the souls there detained are aided by the suffrages of the faithful and chiefly by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar, the holy council commands the bishops that they strive diligently to the end that the sound doctrine of purgatory, transmitted by the Fathers and sacred councils, be believed and maintained by the faithful of Christ,”
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PJM
Guest
Although I have recently published my second book
I was respond to a POST where I claimed that the Bible is a Catholic Book, which indeed it is.
It was Catholic Fathers who selected, inspired by the HS, the OT Jewish text to be included. then it was Catholic Authors who wrote the entire NT. So one may say that the RCC Birthed the Bible, which BTW, was fully authored by the end of the 1st Century; proving indisputable logical evidence that today’s RCC is the One True God, Faith and Church desired and established Personally by Jesus Christ.
Not only were Catholics the first Christians, but for about 500 years and the 1st schim, we were the only Christians. And really the only identified Christians until 1054 and the GREAT Eastern Schism… :hugs:
GBY
Patrick
I’d still like to know how it is that your understanding of God’s general attributes is correct.
You made the charge that the Trinity and Incarnation run counter to the general attributes of a God, but you haven’t explained how you know this.
Until you answer these, there’s no reason to go on.
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SalamKhan
Guest
@JonNC For the last time, I was answering them! I am not writing it all in one post, because (i) you may not be able to grasp it all at once, and (ii) because there is a supposed limitation as to how many characters I can type in one post; hence, why I’m answering in stages. If you do not possess the patience, or do not wish to exercise your reason, then I don’t know what exactly you expect from me.
I may not be able to grasp it? lol
This is real simple. What is it about you that I should believe you know the general attributes of God?
Before you go into some multi post monologue, just answer that simple question.
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SalamKhan
Guest
@JonNC So, I say that the existence of God and His general attributes can be known by reason alone (also that the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation conflict with what can be known about God in general). I assumed all this time that you were asking me to demonstrate this. But apparently, you wanted to know something about me personally? If so, why? What exactly do you want to know, and what does it have to do with anything?
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SalamKhan
Guest
Regardless of what you were asking, I will post this, and you may read this if you wish:
There are three types of intellectual judgements:
Necessary- the non-existence of which cannot be conceived of in the mind.
Impossible- the existence of which cannot be conceived of in the mind.
Possible- the existence and non-existence of which can both be equally conceived of in the mind.
We can observe that things which come into being had the possibility of not coming into being, and we can conceive that things which have not come into being had the possibility of coming into being. This is called contingency. We can observe this of all things which exist in this cosmos, thus the question must be posed- Did the totality of contingent things come into being without an external cause, a cause other than itself?
Prior to coming into being, the contingent thing was merely a possibility which was non-existent, and being non-existent, it could not have bought itself into being, therefore an internal cause is impossible. Prior to coming into being, the possibility of the existence and non-existence of the contingency are equal and therefore neither would be preponderant over the other without an external cause. Imagine a balance with two scales in which the existence of the contingency is weighed, and the non-existence of the contingency on the other, both would be equal, and nothing would come into being, unless something external were to place pressure on the existence of the contingency for it to outweigh the non-existence of the contingency. Therefore, an external cause is necessary to bring something contingent into being.
If the source of the external cause is merely possible, then it is included among the totality of contingent things, and is not the source of the external cause, therefore the source of the external cause must be intrinsically necessary…
TO BE CONTINUED…
There are three types of intellectual judgements:
Necessary- the non-existence of which cannot be conceived of in the mind.
Impossible- the existence of which cannot be conceived of in the mind.
Possible- the existence and non-existence of which can both be equally conceived of in the mind.
We can observe that things which come into being had the possibility of not coming into being, and we can conceive that things which have not come into being had the possibility of coming into being. This is called contingency. We can observe this of all things which exist in this cosmos, thus the question must be posed- Did the totality of contingent things come into being without an external cause, a cause other than itself?
Prior to coming into being, the contingent thing was merely a possibility which was non-existent, and being non-existent, it could not have bought itself into being, therefore an internal cause is impossible. Prior to coming into being, the possibility of the existence and non-existence of the contingency are equal and therefore neither would be preponderant over the other without an external cause. Imagine a balance with two scales in which the existence of the contingency is weighed, and the non-existence of the contingency on the other, both would be equal, and nothing would come into being, unless something external were to place pressure on the existence of the contingency for it to outweigh the non-existence of the contingency. Therefore, an external cause is necessary to bring something contingent into being.
If the source of the external cause is merely possible, then it is included among the totality of contingent things, and is not the source of the external cause, therefore the source of the external cause must be intrinsically necessary…
TO BE CONTINUED…
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SalamKhan
Guest
CONTINUED (PART 2)
It therefore follows that the necessary existent is:
Without beginning and without end- for that which is intrinsically necessary, cannot be non-existent, otherwise it would merely be possible.
Self-subsistent and unlike contingent things- what can be observed of contingent things, such as being conditioned/influenced by something external, substance (that is, being a locus for accidents), accident (that is, being in need of a locus in which to subsist), matter, form, body, limbs, composition of parts, being confined to space, movement, etc. can never be attributed (literally) to the necessary existent.
Oneness- there can be no multiplicity whatsoever in the essence of the necessary existent, nor can other entities possess the same attributes; this shall soon be further expounded upon (In Sha Allah).
Life- this is the attribute of cognisance, which is linked to the attributes of knowledge, power, and will; without which the necessary existent could not act.
Knowledge- this is linked to all things necessary, impossible and possible, seen and unseen, existent and non-existent, in general and in detail; without which the necessary existent could not bring anything into being.
Power and will- these are linked only to all things possible, for bringing the necessary into existence would be accomplishing what has already been accomplished, for something intrinsically necessary cannot be non-existent, otherwise it would be possible, likewise removing the impossible from existence would be accomplishing what has already been accomplished, for something intrinsically impossible cannot be existent, otherwise it would be possible; without these attributes the necessary existent could not bring anything into being.
TO BE CONTINUED…
It therefore follows that the necessary existent is:
Without beginning and without end- for that which is intrinsically necessary, cannot be non-existent, otherwise it would merely be possible.
Self-subsistent and unlike contingent things- what can be observed of contingent things, such as being conditioned/influenced by something external, substance (that is, being a locus for accidents), accident (that is, being in need of a locus in which to subsist), matter, form, body, limbs, composition of parts, being confined to space, movement, etc. can never be attributed (literally) to the necessary existent.
Oneness- there can be no multiplicity whatsoever in the essence of the necessary existent, nor can other entities possess the same attributes; this shall soon be further expounded upon (In Sha Allah).
Life- this is the attribute of cognisance, which is linked to the attributes of knowledge, power, and will; without which the necessary existent could not act.
Knowledge- this is linked to all things necessary, impossible and possible, seen and unseen, existent and non-existent, in general and in detail; without which the necessary existent could not bring anything into being.
Power and will- these are linked only to all things possible, for bringing the necessary into existence would be accomplishing what has already been accomplished, for something intrinsically necessary cannot be non-existent, otherwise it would be possible, likewise removing the impossible from existence would be accomplishing what has already been accomplished, for something intrinsically impossible cannot be existent, otherwise it would be possible; without these attributes the necessary existent could not bring anything into being.
TO BE CONTINUED…
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SalamKhan
Guest
CONTINUED (PART 3)
Finally, it is impossible for there to be multiple entities which are intrinsically necessary, for one entity would limit the other(s) and vice versa. Two (or more) entities sharing necessary existence would each require something to distinguish them.
This cannot be in matter, form, body, limbs, composition of parts, etc. for these are contingent traits which can never be attributed to the necessary existent.
This cannot be in knowledge, because it would necessitate that one entity know of something unknown to the other(s), and vice versa.
This cannot be in will, because if one entity were to will something, the other(s) would be compelled to agree, if not, then this entity would be compelled to agree with the will of the other(s), and all of this vice versa.
This cannot be in power, because if one entity could bring something contingent into being without the need of the other(s), then the other(s) are not necessary existents but possible, and therefore included among the totality of contingent things, for if one entity is in need of the other(s), then this entity is incapable, and all of this vice versa.
If you have read all of this, then please re-read multiple times if need be to get a full grasp. Then, in light of all the above, can you explain how the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation can be reconciled with this?
Finally, it is impossible for there to be multiple entities which are intrinsically necessary, for one entity would limit the other(s) and vice versa. Two (or more) entities sharing necessary existence would each require something to distinguish them.
This cannot be in matter, form, body, limbs, composition of parts, etc. for these are contingent traits which can never be attributed to the necessary existent.
This cannot be in knowledge, because it would necessitate that one entity know of something unknown to the other(s), and vice versa.
This cannot be in will, because if one entity were to will something, the other(s) would be compelled to agree, if not, then this entity would be compelled to agree with the will of the other(s), and all of this vice versa.
This cannot be in power, because if one entity could bring something contingent into being without the need of the other(s), then the other(s) are not necessary existents but possible, and therefore included among the totality of contingent things, for if one entity is in need of the other(s), then this entity is incapable, and all of this vice versa.
If you have read all of this, then please re-read multiple times if need be to get a full grasp. Then, in light of all the above, can you explain how the doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation can be reconciled with this?
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