Why are you not Catholic?

[PRmerger]

Why do we debate it in this day and age? Denominational differences don’t matter any more.

Incidentally, you ought to remember this denomination when you assert that “denominational differences don’t matter any more”

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20227&d=1403928673

Or this denomination, which professes that if one has faith, one will show this by eating grass.

http://firsttoknow.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Preachers-eat-grass-558x279.jpg

Surely you can’t really mean that “denominational differences don’t matter”.

 

[outremer]

Christians ARE indeed one.

But that doesn’t mean that “denominational differences don’t matter”.

Of course they do.

Why?

Because Truth matters.

So, either the Pope IS the vicar of Christ…or he is the antichrist…or he is simply an executive or elder in the Church.

Either divorce and re-marriage is adultery…or it is a reason to celebrate in another wedding ceremony.

Baptism saves…or it simply gets you wet.

Sunday is the Lord’s Day…or it is Saturday, and anyone who celebrates on Sunday is part of the whore of Babylon.

See? See how we cannot overlook doctrinal differences?

I don’t like that dichotomy between “vicar of Christ” or “antichrist.” He is a Christian who leads the Catholic Church. Just as Justin Welby is a Christian who leads the Anglican Communion. So on and so forth.

And let us not forget that Pope Francis was quoted as saying to Evangelical leaders in June 2014:

“I’m not interested in converting Evangelicals to Catholicism. I want people to find Jesus in their own community. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s not spend our time on those. Rather, let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.”

Here.

Did the Vatican ever deny this? Did the Church offer clarification?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t like that dichotomy between “vicar of Christ” or “antichrist.”

Nevertheless, the dichotomy exists, outremer.

And it exists in a multitude of ways.

I already listed some, and here are a few more:

Is abortion a horrible choice, or is it a woman’s moral choice to make?
Is the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Christ, or is it blasphemy and worship of an idol?
Is prayer to the saints fine, or is it necromancy?
Does God love homosexuals and want them to be the people he made them to be, or does God send them to hell for their disordered desire?

See?

Truth matters.

 

[PRmerger]

And let us not forget that Pope Francis was quoted as saying to Evangelical leaders in June 2014:

Here.

Did the Vatican ever deny this? Did the Church offer clarification?

The quote was incorrect, outremer.

Read this by Jimmy Akin:

Did Pope Francis actually say that Jesus doesn’t care what kind of Christian a person is?

No. The Zenit story is flatly incorrect.
Both the headline and the passage quoted above mistake the pope as speaking about Jesus when he is actually speaking about the devil—that is, he is saying that the devil doesn’t care what kind of Christian you are.
Here is the relevant passage from the pope’s remarks:
Division is the work of the Father of Lies, the Father of Discord, who does everything possible to keep us divided.
Together today, I here in Rome and you over there, we will ask our Father to send the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and to give us the grace to be one, “so that the world may believe”.
I feel like saying something that may sound controversial, or even heretical, perhaps.
But there is someone who “knows” that, despite our differences, we are one.
It is he who is persecuting us. It is he who is persecuting Christians today, he who is anointing us with (the blood of) martyrdom.
He knows that Christians are disciples of Christ: that they are one, that they are brothers! He doesn’t care if they are Evangelicals, or Orthodox, Lutherans, Catholics or Apostolic…he doesn’t care! They are Christians.
As you can see, Pope Francis establishes a chain of referents for the pronoun “he” (in “He doesn’t care”) that repeatedly identifies the individual in question as the devil.

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-it-doesnt-matter-what-kind-of-christian-you-are-9-thin/#ixzz3f7O301J2

 

[Tomdstone]

Because Truth matters.

Some moral truths change. For example, is torture morally acceptable? Today, no it is not. But during the time of the Inquisition, a limited amount of torture was accepted.

 

[outremer]

The quote was incorrect, outremer.

Read this by Jimmy Akin:

With respect to Mr. Akin, he has written so many apologies and clarifications of the Pope’s statements (‘Did the Pope REALLY say dot dot dot’), that it makes us wonder if Pope Francis shouldn’t simply hire him onto the Papal staff?

Pope says Christian unity means rejecting ‘proselytism and competition’

So, how do you convince people that they hold unbiblical views, if that has basically become “proselytism”?

 

[PRmerger]

With respect to Mr. Akin, he has written so many apologies and clarifications of the Pope’s statements (‘Did the Pope REALLY say dot dot dot’), that it makes us wonder if Pope Francis shouldn’t simply hire him onto the Papal staff?

The above is a nonsequitur.

Point is: you have believed a lie, outremer. Pope Francis did not actually say what you think he said.

So, how do you convince people that they hold unbiblical views, if that has basically become “proselytism”?

By evangelizing.

 

[PRmerger]

Some moral truths change. For example, is torture morally acceptable? Today, no it is not. But during the time of the Inquisition, a limited amount of torture was accepted.

Torture has always been wrong, Tom.

 

[outremer]

The above is a nonsequitur.

Point is: you have believed a lie, outremer. Pope Francis did not actually say what you think he said.

By evangelizing.

With all due respect, I disagree. Why would all of these notable Evangelical leaders tell a falsehood about the Pope? And, why would clarifications not be offered officially by the Vatican? Mister Akin is a wonderful Catholic man of faith, but he is not an official Papal spokesman.

 

[PRmerger]

With all due respect, I disagree. Why would all of these notable Evangelical leaders tell a falsehood about the Pope? And, why would clarifications not be offered officially by the Vatican? Mister Akin is a wonderful Catholic man of faith, but he is not an official Papal spokesman.

Do you see in the text how the “he” references the devil, outremer? It is the DEVIL, not Pope Francis, who doesn’t care about denominations.

Please read the text again, and you will clearly see the context.

Division is the work of the Father of Lies, the Father of Discord, who does everything possible to keep us divided.
Together today, I here in Rome and you over there, we will ask our Father to send the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and to give us the grace to be one, “so that the world may believe”.
I feel like saying something that may sound controversial, or even heretical, perhaps.
But there is someone who “knows” that, despite our differences, we are one.
It is he who is persecuting us. It is he who is persecuting Christians today, he who is anointing us with (the blood of) martyrdom.
He knows that Christians are disciples of Christ: that they are one, that they are brothers! He doesn’t care if they are Evangelicals, or Orthodox, Lutherans, Catholics or Apostolic…he doesn’t care! They are Christians.

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-it-doesnt-matter-what-kind-of-christian-you-are-9-thin/#ixzz3f7UozyoL

 

[outremer]

Do you see in the text how the “he” references the devil, outremer? It is the DEVIL, not Pope Francis, who doesn’t care about denominations.

Please read the text again, and you will clearly see the context.

So why didn’t the Pope correct the Devil’s misguided view?

The Devil knows something about Christians that is true. What is the truth that the Devil knows? That he [the Devil] knows we are all one, disciples of Christ Jesus, regardless of our Church or denomination.

**James 2:19: “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble!” **

 

[PRmerger]

With all due respect, I disagree. Why would all of these notable Evangelical leaders tell a falsehood about the Pope? And, why would clarifications not be offered officially by the Vatican? Mister Akin is a wonderful Catholic man of faith, but he is not an official Papal spokesman.

As far as clarifications not being offered by the Vatican…well, I doubt that the Vatican is even aware of all of the mistranslations and misinterpretations of Pope Francis’ casual and unofficial interviews and comments.

That would be like Catholic Answers here issuing a correction each and every time someone misquotes their tracts. They simply can’t control that. It’s too huge. Not to mention, it’s not their mission to attempt to correct the minutiae of errors that come from people misquoting their tracts.

 

[PRmerger]

So why didn’t the Pope correct the Devil’s misguided view?

The Devil knows something about Christians that is true. What is the truth that the Devil knows? That he [the Devil] knows we are all one, disciples of Christ Jesus, regardless of our Church or denomination.

**James 2:19: “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe–and tremble!” **

I think he did. He is Catholic and wants everybody to be Catholic.

 

[Tomdstone]

Torture has always been wrong, Tom.

Then why was it used during the Inquisition? And why did Pope Innocent IV approve it?

 

[PRmerger]

Then why was it used during the Inquisition?

For the same reason that Catholics today use torture.

Bad Catholics do bad things.

And why did Pope Innocent IV approve it?

I don’t know that he did. You’d have to give me the references.

And if he did, then all it means is that he was wrong.

 

[crai7]

Nevertheless, the dichotomy exists, outremer.

And it exists in a multitude of ways.

I already listed some, and here are a few more:

Is abortion a horrible choice, or is it a woman’s moral choice to make?
Is the Eucharist the Body and Blood of Christ, or is it blasphemy and worship of an idol?
Is prayer to the saints fine, or is it necromancy?
Does God love homosexuals and want them to be the people he made them to be, or does God send them to hell for their disordered desire?

See?

Truth matters.

Trouble is, within each denomination - between individuals - you get extreme variation; which makes it entirely possible that you may share more beliefs with someone in another denomination than someone in your own! Catholics, for instance who use contraception versus the official view of the church or Protestant liberals who’ve let women into the priesthood versus those who reject this in reformed Protestant churches.

I guess what I’m saying is, you have to evaluate each individual as he stands, rather than judging by denomination.

 

[PRmerger]

Trouble is, within each denomination - between individuals - you get extreme variation; which makes it entirely possible that you may share more beliefs with someone in another denomination than someone in your own! Catholics, for instance who use contraception versus the official view of the church or Protestant liberals who’ve let women into the priesthood versus those who reject this in reformed Protestant churches.

I guess what I’m saying is, you have to evaluate each individual as he stands, rather than judging by denomination.

You are correct.

With Catholicism, being a “good” Catholic is someone who has not divorced herself from the faith.

With Protestantism, however, being a “good” Protestant is someone who has decided for herself with the faith is.

And we can see the rotten fruit of the Protestant paradigm, with tens and tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each claiming that their interpretation of the Bible is the correct one.

 

[crai7]

I completely understand!

I am like you and I know many people, like my mother, who cling to such a concept as your wife. Here is something important about this: There are genuine Christians in all legitimate communions. The more “social” and/or “fellowship” oriented churches will have outgoing and engaging personalities who put a large emphasis on these things. But they are people just like in the Catholic parishes. The Catholic Christians put more emphasis on Sacraments and holy prayer/reverence in their worship.

What I have learned, is that becoming close to Christians in a Catholic parish requires long lasting devotion. Not an immediate shallow friendship (not to accuse all protestants of being shallow at all!). But that relationships will come out of a genuine devotion to Jesus and our “coming together” in the public worship and prayer of Mass.

One thing I am learning about ourselves, is that we (as husband and wife) need to do a better job of this. We are close with our families, but not as much with our parish members. As a result, we need to find God parents for our son’s Baptism! It is forcing us to engage in fellowship with couples our age who we like.

I think Catholics can be a little more reserved when it comes to fellowshipping. I believe a lot has to do with so many cafeteria Cats in the Church. We need to be more engaging, but that does NOT mean abandoning the Sacraments! It means working at it where Jesus is. Not taking the easier path to a more “friendly” or “outgoung” crowd. Paul never compelled this kind of direction to his communities. He worked on converting their hearts and attitudes to change, not to go somewhere which was doing better in some areas.

In my experience the newer denominations are more extroverted and emotion oriented. I think it is a consequence of the decline of the family; they are looking to the church to plug the emotional holes.

 

[TC3033]

For me it’s that I personally have found mass unwelcoming to non-Catholics, even to the point I needed to ask if I’m even welcome (as a nondenominational) at mass or if I should just wait for the wife and kids outside.

I always felt pushed to the side and am not a big fan of feeling judged while I watch the entire congregation head up for communion as I have to stay.

I’ve been close a couple of times, but I grew up believing the church as a welcoming family no matter who you are.

My .02 though.

 

[PRmerger]

For me it’s that I personally have found mass unwelcoming to non-Catholics, even to the point I needed to ask if I’m even welcome (as a nondenominational) at mass or if I should just wait for the wife and kids outside.

Yes, it’s a shame that Catholics aren’t more welcoming to non-Catholics.

However, you should evaluate Catholicism on its teachings, and on whether it is the Church established by Christ, not how welcome you are made to feel.

I always felt pushed to the side and am not a big fan of feeling judged while I watch the entire congregation head up for communion as I have to stay.

Let me disabuse you of the idea that people are judging you.

No one cares enough to judge you about that, TC.

I’ve been close a couple of times, but I grew up believing the church as a welcoming family no matter who you are.

My .02 though.

Again, how welcoming a community is ought not be a major criterion in determining what Church is Christ’s church.

The Westboro Baptist Church may be the most welcoming group, but that wouldn’t make it, nor its doctrines, true.