Why are you not orthodox

  • Thread starter Thread starter isus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I must say that I am amazed that the reason many of you are giving for choosing Rome over Constantinople as it were is the reason I left RCIA and converted to Orthodoxy.
  1. A lot of you are pointing to the unifying nature of the Papacy, but this unity does not equal soundness. Whether you believe the church should be headed by a college of bishops or by the pope you are appealing to faith. Orthodox Christians have faith that the Church will never be led astray by the bishops; Roman Catholicism has faith that the Church will never be led astray by the Pope, but in either case there is no absolute guarantee.
  2. How is it that many of you think that it necessarily follows from Matt. 16:18 that the Pope of Rome is the unique successor of Peter? Why couldn’t it be the case, as many Orthodox Christians believe, that all bishops are the successor of Peter?
I encourage everyone to seriously scrutinize the Church Fathers and apologetical arguments made both for and against the Papacy. If your experience mirrors mine, you will see that such apologetics are quite fallacious. One of you said you had never seen a good argument for the Orthodox view of the Papacy. Well, I challenge folks here to present a convincing argument that the Pope of Rome is the unique successor of Peter who can legitimately speak ex cathedra on behalf of the entire church.
Thank you for this post. You hit the nail on the head. 👍

My experience is similar. I was brought up a Latin Catholic, but wasn’t well taught–who is nowadays? 😦 When I went away to university, I met a Catholic-turned-Evangelical who challenged me about… well, you know the routine: salvation by grace through faith and works, papal infallibility, the role of Mary and the saints.

After a period of investigation, I concluded that Protestantism was implausible. But I was still faced with choosing between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. After even more research, I decided that I could swallo purgatory and the immaculate conception, but the papacy was one bridge too far. So, I had no choice but to become Orthodox.

I must say, though, that I harbour no bitter feelings toward persons and things Catholic. I miss the Western-friendly familiarity of the Mass, which this Canadian finds more accessible than the magnificent Divine Liturgy. I also lament not being able to go to a church service in the morning on any weekday and then saunter into class in the afternoon, spiritually energized.

I only become annoyed when Catholics insist that Orthodox need a pope. 😉 So, keep saying your rosaries (I ask that you include me) and everything is peachy. 😛 (Please make note of the, er, emot-icons.)
 
While I am in the first Papal church in the world, I will be the first to admit that nobody – not Orthodox, not Catholics – needs a Pope. Looking at the history of how this term began to be applied to Bishops, we see that the 13th successor to the throne of St. Mark in Alexandria, HH St. Heraclas, was first referred to by this title in a letter from the Roman Bishop Dionysius to Philemon, which reads in part:

τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον.[1] Pope, Heraclas.]

Leaving aside even the question of what it means to have the Bishop of Rome receiving some rule from the Bishop of Alexandria (I don’t really want to open that can of worms), it can be plainly said that to go back to a time “before Popes” is at least possible in the Alexandrian reckoning of history, as that would involve looking to how things were before the middle of the third century AD (Dionysius was actually writing after HH St. Heraclas’ death in 246). The Church at Alexandria was, of course, fully functional before this time, and having its bishop be called by this term of affection did not really add anything new in terms of powers to his office. While of course there is deference paid to him as the most senior bishop of the Church and he carries certain responsibilities and privileges in that role (e.g., heading the Holy Synod), I believe that Alexandria does show a good example of a kind of “middle way” between the poles as they are sometimes painted by RC and EO polemicists alike (note: I am not saying that anyone in this thread qualifies to be called a ‘polemicist’, only that the two poles of “the Pope has all kinds of unique powers because he’s the Pope” and “no, he doesn’t; he’s just another bishop” don’t really make sense to me).

As for who is the successor of who, that’s a bit easier in many (well, some…) cases. As some were cast out for various offenses or never accepted in the first place (e.g., the various Arians who were placed in Alexandria by Christ-hating emperors, which are not recognized by either non-Chalcedonians or Chalcedonians in Egypt), the idea that the valid/true/whatever bishop is the one that holds the true faith is not just an easy way to be vague at Catholics in discussions like this (:p), but does carry some historical and contemporary weight in so far as both OO and EO have recently and historically had to deal with leaders who were in one way or another not fit for the job (read: since our Popes are not infallible, and we do not share RC ecclesiology anyway, this is actually still a really important criterion by which to judge the health of the leadership, since we cannot assume that anyone is a priori protected from messing up). It can be fairly said, I think, that this does not provide the safety and security in terms of epistemological certainty that the RCC sees in its system, but from where I’m sitting it’s all the more realistic for that. Bishops do go bad, we know.

So while it is probably fair to say that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses (as conceived by those not in communion, anyway), what has drawn me to Orthodox ecclesiology specifically as practiced in my communion is in the various ancient and modern examples of it in practice. We do not have to hypothesize that such a thing is what was meant in a canon or in some other ancient writing, because the canons are still ‘alive’ and working in the our church, even (or maybe especially) in times of trouble and conflict over just how the Church should move forward at a particular juncture or on a particular issue (e.g., the fight over the application of Canon 15 during the recent Papal election). There’s no doubt it is terribly messy business, and it definitely would be easier if there were one bishop we could turn to to lay down the unquestionable and inerrant law, but what can I say…we may get down in the dirt and look somewhat backwards or not respectable to the more highly organized churches, but there’s something to be said for getting your hands dirty in the process of keeping the narrow path as unobstructed as possible.
 
Yes, Evodius was named Bishop of Antioch after St. Peter.

But St. Peter last vacated See was in Rome. The successor of St. Peter’s last See is currently Pope Francis.

See for example President George W. Bush. He was governor of Texas and President of the U.S. He has 2 successors but one of them holds a higher office.
There is no higher office than Bishop in the Church.
 
Thank you for this post. You hit the nail on the head. 👍

My experience is similar. I was brought up a Latin Catholic, but wasn’t well taught–who is nowadays? 😦 When I went away to university, I met a Catholic-turned-Evangelical who challenged me about… well, you know the routine: salvation by grace through faith and works, papal infallibility, the role of Mary and the saints.

After a period of investigation, I concluded that Protestantism was implausible. But I was still faced with choosing between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. After even more research, I decided that I could swallo purgatory and the immaculate conception, but the papacy was one bridge too far. So, I had no choice but to become Orthodox.

I must say, though, that I harbour no bitter feelings toward persons and things Catholic. I miss the Western-friendly familiarity of the Mass, which this Canadian finds more accessible than the magnificent Divine Liturgy. I also lament not being able to go to a church service in the morning on any weekday and then saunter into class in the afternoon, spiritually energized.

I only become annoyed when Catholics insist that Orthodox need a pope. 😉 So, keep saying your rosaries (I ask that you include me) and everything is peachy. 😛 (Please make note of the, er, emot-icons.)
Sadly your scenario is similar to millions of Catholics (Like me). You were badly Catechized and have a limited History lesson. Our biggest weakness is College, hopefully we will overcome this elephant.

Any Catholic that is unable to answer any branch of Protestantism is just not educated enough in the Faith.

Did you know that the Coptic Orthodox Church was the first one to use the title of Pope?

My journey was similar to yours, but my conclusions were different. I found Protestantism and Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy untenable.
 
  1. How is it that many of you think that it necessarily follows from Matt. 16:18 that the Pope of Rome is the unique successor of Peter? Why couldn’t it be the case, as many Orthodox Christians believe, that all bishops are the successor of Peter?
Matt 16 and the other 150 verses about Peter right… considering that all of the other Apostles combined have about 130 verses…
 
Is oneness defined by a common faith or a common loyalty to a single Bishop?
The two are not distinct. The common faith is bound to the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the keys of the Kingdom given by Jesus to Peter and handed on to each bishop of Rome thereafter.

I was afraid that this simple question was going to result in apologetics for Orthodox Christianity as opposed to Catholicism. I see I was not mistaken. Just a reminder that we re-check the thread title we need also to recheck the website.
 
what are your objections to the eastern orthodox faith

bonus question: what are your arguments for the Roman Catholic church
Good morning, and wishing you a blessed Ash Wednesday.

To answer the thread title, I am not Orthodox for several reasons…

Firstly, I was born a “Roman” Catholic. It’s what I know, what my wife & family is, and what most of my friends are. As you may know; when you’re born into something it is almost an inseparable part of you; ingrained in your soul. I know Catholicism, and I have come to not just practice it; but to LOVE IT.

Secondly, there’s the history of Catholicism that nothing else in human history can compare to. I have a post high school education, and had many history courses; and the consensus is that the Catholic Church (West/Latin and East) IS the original Church. That really appeals to me. Being a disciple of Christ in HIS Church is a privilege that I could never relinquish.

Closely tied to the history is the archeology. St. Peter is buried under the alter at the Vatican. St. Peter (the Rock) really IS the rock that the mother church of the Mother Church is really built on. I have known of St. Peter’s importance since I was a child, so his body ACTUALLY being there gave a lot of credibility to the Church in my eyes.

That is a VERY brief non-inclusive summary of why I’m Catholic and not Orthodox. If Orthodoxy had Catholicism’s history and if I had been raised as Orthodox, we’re having a different conversation right now.

As for my objections to Orthodoxy… there are none. It has been a long time since there has been real hostility between us, and I don’t look at them the same way as I do Protestants. Our differences are over hierarchy, not theology. So therefore, while I may disagree with the Orthodox on who speaks for the Church on earth; I have no theological axe to grind with them per se.
 
Neither your posts address the OP, since you are Orthodox.
Whether the participation of Orthodox posters in this thread is broadly speaking, “off topic,” is for the moderators to decide, not you. But I must say that if posters on this forum were strictly limited to responding to only the original post (which, to my knowledge, they are not), there wouldn’t be very much potential for discussion at all, would there?
 
Whether the participation of Orthodox posters in this thread is broadly speaking “off topic” is for the moderators to decide, not you.
I can form my own opinion, whether or not it holds authority - that’s a different matter.

Did you find what I allegedly said?
 
Did you find what I allegedly said?
Is it or is it not a basic tenet of Roman Catholicism that the Pope reigns as head by divine right by virtue of his unique succession from St. Peter? Are faithful Roman Catholics free to deny this belief? Do you deny this belief?
 
Is it or is it not a basic tenet of Roman Catholicism that the Pope reigns as head by divine right by virtue of his unique succession from St. Peter? Are faithful Roman Catholics free to deny this belief? Do you deny this belief?
That’s not what you accused me of, when you quoted me.

You are free to start a new thread on this and we can stop hijacking this thread.

I believe in the Divine right of the Pope as the successor of Peter in the See of Rome.

As expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The episcopal college and its head, the Pope (CCC 880-896).
 
You are free to start a new thread on this and we can stop hijacking this thread.

I believe in the Divine right of the Pope as the successor of Peter in the See of Rome.

As expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The episcopal college and its head, the Pope (CCC 880-896).
I accused you of nothing. I simply assumed that when you were speaking of the Pope’s succession from Peter (as the successor of Peter’s “last see”) that you were indeed referencing belief in the common Roman Catholic teaching that the Pope is the head of the Church by virtue of a unique succession derived from St. Peter. If this is incorrect and you do not actually believe in this teaching, then I apologize.
 
From the Catechism:
881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the “rock” of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.” This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”
883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”
This is what we believe. This is why we are Catholic. I am not Orthodox because this is missing. Now, unless this thread is really about proselytizing Catholics, that should cover it.
 
That doesn’t even address Truthseeker’s question.
It is your opinion that the response did not address the question (the first one). It does. It is data given as evidence for Petrine primacy. It is Peter alone that Jesus called the rock and him alone that he stated would be the foundation of the Church. He alone possess the authority of the keys (the symbol of authority). Why doesn’t it apply to all bishops? Simple. Authority is linear.
 
@ Trebor135

I must say, though, that I harbour no bitter feelings toward persons and things Catholic. I miss the Western-friendly familiarity of the Mass, which this Canadian finds more accessible than the magnificent Divine Liturgy. I also lament not being able to go to a church service in the morning on any weekday and then saunter into class in the afternoon, spiritually energized.

Remember, to receive communion at Catholic Mass ‘there is no (Catholic) objection for Orthodox to present themselves for Eucharist in a Roman Catholic Mass’…I long for the day where the sentiment is reciprocal 😉
 
The two are not distinct. The common faith is bound to the authority of the Bishop of Rome, the keys of the Kingdom given by Jesus to Peter and handed on to each bishop of Rome thereafter.

I was afraid that this simple question was going to result in apologetics for Orthodox Christianity as opposed to Catholicism. I see I was not mistaken. Just a reminder that we re-check the thread title we need also to recheck the website.
How can you expect orthodox not to offer an orthodox Critique of roman catholic or even protestant objections to the faith?

Also I do find the two distinct in that one does not need to have one bishop in order to have a common faith and the Orthodox church evidence against such a Notion. The original poster I responded to implied the oneness is related to the Bishop and he finds the term oneness to be important because it is in the creed. Did the fathers of Nicea when they said they believe in One, holy catholic and apostolic church mean by that oneness a unity with one supreme Pope?
 
How can you expect orthodox not to offer an orthodox Critique of roman catholic or even protestant objections to the faith?
I do not expect it. I am not the only one (hence the popcorn earlier).
Also I do find the two distinct in that one does not need to have one bishop in order to have a common faith and the Orthodox church evidence against such a Notion.
Not an absolute necessity, but one that is needed as time goes on.
The original poster I responded to implied the oneness is related to the Bishop and he finds the term oneness to be important because it is in the creed. Did the fathers of Nicea when they said they believe in One, holy catholic and apostolic church mean by that oneness a unity with one supreme Pope?
Yes, that is the historical position of the Church, if one looks at the totality of the thinking at the time.

Why all these question? I quoted the Catechism above. That is the teaching of the Catholic Church. It seems pretty simple to understand, if you ask me.

I could also add that I am not Orthodox because in studying the first few centuries of the Church, I found their claims of equality of bishops tenuous, unprecedented and wrong. I am convinced that the Church that was founded on Peter remains founded on Peter. I believe on this that the Catholic Church is right and the Orthodox position is wrong.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top