Why Aren't the Jewish People more Pro-life?

[Shibolet]

From what I can tell, most questions that start with the words “What is the binding Jewish teaching on the topic of…” are about as futile as substituting the word “Anglican” into the same question! It makes you wonder, at what point does a disparate group of people who disagree with one another on major issues stop being the same religion?

On second thought, that’s far too deep a question to figure out. Time for a diversion:
Kaninchen said “SEX!!!”

Manualman, I beg to disagree with you about the “futility” of consulting the Jewish position
on any issue as the Scriptures are concerned. Not if the question originates in the mind of any Christian researcher. The Hebrew Scriptures is after all the well wherefrom Christianity
draws its water.

 

[meltzerboy]

You can think again, although you are not totally wrong. The concept of hell is indeed in the OT but the one in terms of the grave and not of a place in flames burning the souls of non-repented sinners. This is found only in the NT and in the Dante’s Inferno. Now, you know that such a thing is not real. And BTW, heaven likewise is not a place to get into but a spiritual state of mind which is up to ourselves to allow it to dwell within ourselves. That’s what Jesus himself made it very clear in Luke 17:21. “The kingdom of heaven is not a place we could report of being here or there; for it is to be found within each one of us.” Jews do believe that after death we all go somewhere: Grave, that is. A place wherefrom no one will ever return. (Job 10:21; 2 Chron. 12:23)

But the Hebrew Bible, in the passages written later, does give hints of an afterlife. In fact, there was a shift in belief on this subject. And let’s not forget the Oral Law and the writings of the Jewish sages, such as Maimonides, which reflect diverse views.

 

[1AugustSon7]

You can think again, although you are not totally wrong. The concept of hell is indeed in the OT but the one in terms of the grave and not of a place in flames burning the souls of non-repented sinners. This is found only in the NT and in the Dante’s Inferno. Now, you know that such a thing is not real. And BTW, heaven likewise is not a place to get into but a spiritual state of mind which is up to ourselves to allow it to dwell within ourselves. That’s what Jesus himself made it very clear in Luke 17:21. “The kingdom of heaven is not a place we could report of being here or there; for it is to be found within each one of us.” Jews do believe that after death we all go somewhere: Grave, that is. A place wherefrom no one will ever return. (Job 10:21; 2 Chron. 12:23)

Correct though, to be fair to Dante, he was expressing (as was the philosophical advice of the time) metaphysical or transcendant realities in extremely concrete forms, as was recommended for philosopher-poets when their audience was the general and uneducated public. Dante was seating himself within the long line or tradition of ancient poets and philosophers, as symbolized I think by placing Virgil as his guide.

IV. "WHO ART IN HEAVEN"

2794 This biblical expression does not mean a place (“space”), but a way of being; it does not mean that God is distant, but majestic. Our Father is not “elsewhere”: he transcends everything we can conceive of his holiness. It is precisely because he is thrice holy that he is so close to the humble and contrite heart.

“Our Father who art in heaven” is rightly understood to mean that God is in the hearts of the just, as in his holy temple. At the same time, it means that those who pray should desire the one they invoke to dwell in them.54

“Heaven” could also be those who bear the image of the heavenly world, and in whom God dwells and tarries.55

2795 The symbol of the heavens refers us back to the mystery of the covenant we are living when we pray to our Father. He is in heaven, his dwelling place; the Father’s house is our homeland. Sin has exiled us from the land of the covenant,56 but conversion of heart enables us to return to the Father, to heaven.57 In Christ, then, heaven and earth are reconciled,58 for the Son alone “descended from heaven” and causes us to ascend there with him, by his Cross, Resurrection, and Ascension.59

2796 When the Church prays “our Father who art in heaven,” she is professing that we are the People of God, already seated “with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus” and "hidden with Christ in God;"60 yet at the same time, "here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling."61

[Christians] are in the flesh, but do not live according to the flesh. They spend their lives on earth, but are citizens of heaven.62
​

I think Dante’s work is in keeping with the doctrine above, indulging as it does in "the symbol of the heavens ".

 

[Shibolet]

But the Hebrew Bible, in the passages written later, does give hints of an afterlife. In fact, there was a shift in belief on this subject. And let’s not forget the Oral Law and the writings of the Jewish sages, such as Maimonides, which reflect diverse views.

Interesting to let you know, most of my views are taken from Maimonides in his book, “The Guide for the Perplexed.” I have that book with me. Nothing in Maimonides reflects any activity in the afterlife. On the contrary, he follows the same opinion of the Qoheleth that says, “The dead will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun.” (Eccl. 9:6) And the hints you suspect the Hebrew Bible gives of afterlife is possible only under Christian preconceived notions. You know, members of the literal interpretation club. And for the Oral Law, it works only as fences around the Torah. It is made out of Midrashim, which have no force of Law.

 

[Shibolet]

IV. "WHO ART IN HEAVEN"

2794 This biblical expression does not mean a place (“space”), but a way of being; it does not mean that God is distant, but majestic. Our Father is not “elsewhere”: he transcends everything we can conceive of his holiness. It is precisely because he is thrice holy that he is so close to the humble and contrite heart.

“Our Father who art in heaven” is rightly understood to mean that God is in the hearts of the just, as in his holy temple. At the same time, it means that those who pray should desire the one they invoke to dwell in them.54
".

August Son, the Almighty is not subject to time or space. “Thou art in Heaven” is the same as to say, “Thou art Spirit.” Just as Jesus himself declared that God is Spirit and the only way to worship Him is in spirit. (John 4:24) Therefore, every time we come about
expressions of place or time with reference to God, we must apply metaphorical language.
​

​

 

[1AugustSon7]

August Son, the Almighty is not subject to time or space. “Thou art in Heaven” is the same as to say, “Thou art Spirit.” Just as Jesus himself declared that God is Spirit and the only way to worship Him is in spirit. (John 4:24) Therefore, every time we come about
expressions of place or time with reference to God, we must apply metaphorical language.

Sorry, but I’m not sure I’m following. God’s transcendence is not, I don’t think, being denied; he of course surpasses all time and all place; yet, exactly because he is Almighty, he necessarily (I would think) must also somehow be said to “fill” all time and every place with his power and presence: I mean, he is always and everywhere absolutely Lord.

 

[meltzerboy]

Interesting to let you know, most of my views are taken from Maimonides in his book, “The Guide for the Perplexed.” I have that book with me. Nothing in Maimonides reflects any activity in the afterlife. On the contrary, he follows the same opinion of the Qoheleth that says, “The dead will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun.” (Eccl. 9:6) And the hints you suspect the Hebrew Bible gives of afterlife is possible only under Christian preconceived notions. You know, members of the literal interpretation club. And for the Oral Law, it works only as fences around the Torah. It is made out of Midrashim, which have no force of Law.

Excuse me, but I must disagree. Most Orthodox Jews today believe in an afterlife. Why do they do so if it is not suggested in the Hebrew Bible, particularly the Torah, as well as the Talmud, and according to several Jewish philosophers and scholars? One of Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith is the resurrection of the dead and these principles were gleaned from Talmud teaching. Moreover, the Talmud (Oral Law) and its Midrashim certainly do constitute a significant part of Jewish belief according to most adherents of Torah Judaism, with the exception of Karaite Jews. Of course, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Jewish movements differ from the Orthodox communities in their beliefs on the interpretation of Talmud and Torah.

 

[oneofmany]

You can think again, although you are not totally wrong. The concept of hell is indeed in the OT but the one in terms of the grave and not of a place in flames burning the souls of non-repented sinners. This is found only in the NT and in the Dante’s Inferno. Now, you know that such a thing is not real. And BTW, heaven likewise is not a place to get into but a spiritual state of mind which is up to ourselves to allow it to dwell within ourselves. That’s what Jesus himself made it very clear in Luke 17:21. “The kingdom of heaven is not a place we could report of being here or there; for it is to be found within each one of us.” Jews do believe that after death we all go somewhere: Grave, that is. A place wherefrom no one will ever return. (Job 10:21; 2 Chron. 12:23)

Then they are very close to atheist thinking. No afterlife but the grave. No wonder they don’t care about abortions. No judgment day for them at all.

Why then do Catholics say our religion is from the Jewish religion when it is not close at all?

 

[Adamski]

It’s kind of like why aren’t Catholics more pro life

I have a Jewish aunt who is 100% pro life who is so orthodox that she won’t turn on a light or cook something on the sabbath. Along with every fall her family builds a shack outside were they live in from sun down to sun up for a week; I forgot the holiday

and my cousins wife who is Jewish who hasnt been to temple since she was a little, has a christmas tree and had her kids baptized because she didn’t care,

 

[Adamski]

Is there in the whole wide-world a more pro-life people than the Jewish People? I don’t think
so. They even have the concept of “Pichuach Nephesh” which allows them to break a commandment as long as life is to be preserved. With regards to abortion, they consider the life of the mother who is already living more important than that of the child who hasn’t been born yet. In other words, they are in favor of abortion only when the life of the mother is in danger. They also believe in the freedom of the mother. Hence, they leave up to the mother to exercise her right to choose when to give birth and when not to. If there is any consequence to her making the wrong choice, the effects caused by any transgression of the law, will be laid upon her own head. That’s her body and no one has the right to act upon it other than herself.

That is the poorest argument I have ever heard.
Since I graduated from an ivy league college and my three year old hasn’t entered kintergarden yet can I kill her since she isn’t “as developed or valueable as me”

 

[Shibolet]

Sorry, but I’m not sure I’m following. God’s transcendence is not, I don’t think, being denied; he of course surpasses all time and all place; yet, exactly because he is Almighty, he necessarily (I would think) must also somehow be said to “fill” all time and every place with his power and presence: I mean, he is always and everywhere absolutely Lord.

Thank you. All that you have said above only confirms my views of the Almighty. I only must add that God is indeed all-powerful to be or to do what He wills, but except what you demand or wish He did or should do. God is Spirit and, to subject Him to our wishes is anthropomorphism, which means to bring Him down to the level of man. (Num. 23:19)

 

[Shibolet]

Excuse me, but I must disagree. Most Orthodox Jews today believe in an afterlife. Why do they do so if it is not suggested in the Hebrew Bible, particularly the Torah, as well as the Talmud, and according to several Jewish philosophers and scholars? One of Maimonides’ Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith is the resurrection of the dead and these principles were gleaned from Talmud teaching. Moreover, the Talmud (Oral Law) and its Midrashim certainly do constitute a significant part of Jewish belief according to most adherents of Torah Judaism, with the exception of Karaite Jews. Of course, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Jewish movements differ from the Orthodox communities in their beliefs on the interpretation of Talmud and Torah.

In the 13 Principles of Faith by the Rambam, the principle that talks about resurrection comes right before the one about the coming of the Messiah. That’s exactly according to Ezekiel 37:12. It’s about the vision of the Dry Bones. But to make it easier for you to understand, take a look at Isaiah 53:8,9. When the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel, and graves are assigned to them in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. At the end of the exile, Adonai opens those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. That’s absolutely no bodily resurrection but the kind of resurrection the Rambam describes in his 12th principle as preceding the coming of the Messiah in the 13th principle.

Well Meltzerboy, I have a better suggestion for a more fruitful dialogue with you. You say above that most Orthodox Jews believe in the afterlife because it is suggested in the Tanach, especially Torah. You can go right ahead and quote to me wherever in the Tanach
you take as a suggestion to any kind of life after death, and I’ll be more than happy to discuss it with you. This of appealing to authorities, I find it to be too fallacious.

 

[Shibolet]

Then they are very close to atheist thinking. No afterlife but the grave. No wonder they don’t care about abortions. No judgment day for them at all.

Why then do Catholics say our religion is from the Jewish religion when it is not close at all?

No Oneofmany, the main atheistic purpose is to discard the existence of God. This of itself
separates Jews from atheists as the South is separated from the North. Why “no afterlife but the grave?” The grave is an afterlife status. What Jews don’t believe is in life after death. (Eccl. 12:7)

Where does it come that Jews don’t care about abortion? They simply reason about rights to life. Why should the one who is already living have to die for another who hasn’t even started to live?

Judgment day! When, in the here-and-now or in the hereafter? If it is in the afterlife, you ought to know that the Lord is not God of the dead but of the living. Death is the neutralizer
of everything one has done during life, good or bad. There is no longer anything to judge.

I liked your last question. Judaism and Christianity have absolutely nothing to do with each
other. Christianity is more akin to Hellenism, which stands against everything Judaism stands for. You are right by understanding that Judaism and Catholicism are not close at all to each other.

 

[Shibolet]

It’s kind of like why aren’t Catholics more pro life

I have a Jewish aunt who is 100% pro life who is so orthodox that she won’t turn on a light or cook something on the sabbath. Along with every fall her family builds a shack outside were they live in from sun down to sun up for a week; I forgot the holiday

and my cousins wife who is Jewish who hasnt been to temple since she was a little, has a christmas tree and had her kids baptized because she didn’t care,

The holiday is “SUKKOT” aka “The Feast of Booths.”

 

[Kaninchen]

You say above that most Orthodox Jews believe in the afterlife because it is suggested in the Tanach, especially Torah. You can go right ahead and quote to me wherever in the Tanach
you take as a suggestion to any kind of life after death, and I’ll be more than happy to discuss it with you. This of appealing to authorities, I find it to be too fallacious.

Hm, well the concept of existence after death is there - after all the Witch of Endor summons up the ghost of Samuel for Saul.

Quite what that existence might be is another matter, of course. Sheol is the basic shades/shadows vision that was common to many Middle Eastern religions.

 

[Shibolet]

That is the poorest argument I have ever heard.
Since I graduated from an ivy league college and my three year old hasn’t entered kintergarden yet can I kill her since she isn’t “as developed or valueable as me”

Whoever has implied here that you should kill your child for not being yet as developed as you are? But who can judge that you should be the one to be killed so that your child may live? My point is whom should be the decision be left with. The Jewish position is that first,
the life of the mother must be considered in case she is in a condition unable to decide about what must be done. Anyways, today that option is almost nil. Medical science has developed enough to save both.

 

[Shibolet]

To learn more about Catholic views of the Truth.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have to say that I do find the Sumerian/Babylonian etc stuff interesting though, perhaps it’s a bit like Christians looking at Judaism!

 

[colmywaykurtz]

What I find astonishing is the rate of abortion in the US as compared to other countries.

Here are the rates / 1000 women aged 15 to 44 for selected developed countries:

United States…21.3
Australia…22.2
Sweden…18.7
Denmark…16.5
Canada…16.4
England & Wales…15.6
Germany…7.6
Holland…6.5

The US and Australia are outliers on the upside while Germany and Netherlands have relatively few abortions.

Notice something else about all those other countries? They all have universal health care.

 

[Shibolet]

Hm, well the concept of existence after death is there - after all the Witch of Endor summons up the ghost of Samuel for Saul.

Quite what that existence might be is another matter, of course. Sheol is the basic shades/shadows vision that was common to many Middle Eastern religions.

According to the Scriptures, Sheol is the grave and there is no other name to call it by. (Job 10:21; 2 Sam. 12:23)

The Witch of Endor did not summon up anyone’s ghost. It would be a blatant contradiction to the whole of God’s Word to admit so. Seance was a way of making a living by way of tricks. Since it was corrupting the minds of the people it became illegal to do so. Hence, the Witch Hunting adopted as a law. Now, tell me, did Saul see Samuel rising from the grave? No, he didn’t. He was being guided by whatever the Witch of Endor shrieked to make a real impression of authenticity. If Hudini was around at the time of the Witch of Endor, she wouldn’t have much of a chance to suceed, I tell you.