Why Aren't the Jewish People more Pro-life?

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Shibolet said:
It is very simple and logic. We don’t have to struggle to look for Halachic opinion or to appeal to authorities. Have you ever heard about the law of cause and effect? It was first discussed by Isaac Newton. Whatever one does, good or bad, the effect that’s caused by the action is harvested by the one who caused it.
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Who is this “We”, you’re talking about?
 
Shibolet said:
Is there in the whole wide-world a more pro-life people than the Jewish People? I don’t think
so. They even have the concept of “Pichuach Nephesh” which allows them to break a commandment as long as life is to be preserved. With regards to abortion, they consider the life of the mother who is already living more important than that of the child who hasn’t been born yet. In other words, they are in favor of abortion only when the life of the mother is in danger. They also believe in the freedom of the mother. Hence, they leave up to the mother to exercise her right to choose when to give birth and when not to. If there is any consequence to her making the wrong choice, the effects caused by any transgression of the law, will be laid upon her own head. That’s her body and no one has the right to act upon it other than herself.
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So they don’t believe it is a baby until it is born? Also, if the wrong choice is made the effects caused by any transgressions of the law----whatever that means will be laid upon her own head. So if she goes to a Rabbi he will tell her just that and not be concerned about her soul----hey it’s her call if she goes to hell----too bad she made the wrong decision?

I would think they would know many abortions that are done today are only for birth control and it has gone “over the cliff” with how liberal it has become.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’ve always had a suspicion that one of the reasons for the ‘popularity’ of Jewish doctors in, otherwise, hostile societies was that, in extreme situations, the Jewish doctor would save the mother.

Well, I’ve survived here for six years, though one of my mantras for doing so has been “It’s a Catholic board, don’t talk about sex, don’t even talk about not talking about sex.” 🙂
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I havent been here anywhere near as long as six years but I’ve noticed sex being talked about quite openly on various occasions. Stereotype much? 😉
lax16 said:
Hey, maybe then we will finally be able to shake off these tired, old stereotypes. 👍
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Exatcly. Its acually quite funny when folks come out with these sterotypes because for one thing they’re completely wrong and for another, you know they wouldnt do that in a million years on say a Muslim forum or a Jewish forum, not that I would condone that. But its ok. We can take it. 😉
 
CrazyRachel said:
I havent been here anywhere near as long as six years but I’ve noticed sex being talked about quite openly on various occasions. Stereotype much? 😉
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There’s a difference between the personal issues ‘Am I allowed to have sex with my husband before communion’, ‘My Catholic boyfriend wants to . . . .’ etc threads and the major social issues where sex is involved - gays, contraception, abortion.

It is my experience that the major issues threads are best avoided by non-Catholics who want to miss out on infractions, suspensions and bannings.

As to the Americanism ‘Stereotype much’, now you might get an inkling of why the second half of the mantra is ‘don’t even talk about not talking about sex’.
 
RPRPsych said:
Perhaps we should just post the entire text here. 🙂
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Then, I’d be breaking the forum rules!

I knew I should have stuck to ‘Don’t talk about sex, don’t even talk about not talking about sex.’ 😃
 
Kaninchen said:
Then, I’d be breaking the forum rules!

I knew I should have stuck to ‘Don’t talk about sex, don’t even talk about not talking about sex.’ 😃
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Hi Kaninchen - The thread is about promoting the pro-life view point, or not, from a Jewish perspective. It is not about sex. 🤷

Please let us discuss some possible reasons why the Jewish people are not more pro-life.

I had asked a question to another poster that I will pose to you. Do you think that the Jewish people are aligning themselves with the more liberal causes and political parties in the U.S. because they believe that the Republican Party is made up of Christian right-wingers? As I stated before, my Jewish in-laws believe that by supporting the conservatives they are supporting a Christian take-over of the U.S. and they don’t want to see that happen.
In particular, they feel they must support abortion and homosexual marriage because they are going against what they believe to be Christian ideals, not Judeo/Christian ideals.

(I am not wanting to generalize. I am only talking about a handful of individuals in my family, however, they are wanting to be known for their “liberal” ideals, not Jewish teaching, on such matters).
 
A big part of the reason you see more catholics are pro-life is because no true catholic is pro-choice. So from the start you’ve excluded a large number of catholics at the same time you’ve lumped all jews together.
 
lax16 said:
Hi Kaninchen - The thread is about promoting the pro-life view point, or not, from a Jewish perspective. It is not about sex. 🤷

Please let us discuss some possible reasons why the Jewish people are not more pro-life.

I had asked a question to another poster that I will pose to you. Do you think that the Jewish people are aligning themselves with the more liberal causes and political parties in the U.S. because they believe that the Republican Party is made up of Christian right-wingers? As I stated before, my Jewish in-laws believe that by supporting the conservatives they are supporting a Christian take-over of the U.S. and they don’t want to see that happen.
In particular, they feel they must support abortion and homosexual marriage because they are going against what they believe to be Christian ideals, not Judeo/Christian ideals.

(I am not wanting to generalize. I am only talking about a handful of individuals in my family, however, they are wanting to be known for their “liberal” ideals, not Jewish teaching, on such matters).
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While I have lived in the United States (enjoyably, twice), I do not live in the United States and have virtually no interest in what Americans do about anything (not far off 7000 posts and not one comment on American politics, society or foreign policy).

I only appeared in this thread to post a link to Jewish perspectives on abortion and have dealt only with the consequences of having done so.
 
Shibolet said:
“We” you and I. We all. Logic is at the reach of all of us.
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But argument rather requires a premise(s) and that’s what I was asking about. You made a statement about a Jewish position and I was asking for legal references.

Judaism is a religion of ‘Law’.
 
oneofmany said:
So they don’t believe it is a baby until it is born? Also, if the wrong choice is made the effects caused by any transgressions of the law----whatever that means will be laid upon her own head. So if she goes to a Rabbi he will tell her just that and not be concerned about her soul----hey it’s her call if she goes to hell----too bad she made the wrong decision?

I would think they would know many abortions that are done today are only for birth control and it has gone “over the cliff” with how liberal it has become.
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By transgression of the law, I mean, the law of cause and effect. That’s a natural law that has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. It applies to all of Mankind. Every transgression according to the law of cause and effect is by nature laid upon one’s own head. No mystery about it.

A baby is a baby from conception, but as long as it is not born, the life of the mother takes
precedence. To think otherwise is political badgering of women as a result of hypocrisy. If women go to a Rabbi to consult about abortion, they will never be told that they will end up in hell if they take upon themselves the decision to abort. Why? Because Jews do not believe in hell. There is no such a thing but in the minds of people with religious preconceived notions.
 
Kaninchen said:
Starting from the same set of assumptions, yes they do vary. The difference is in what is considered a ‘threat’ - from ‘clear and present danger’ onwards to things like ‘psychological damage’.

What is common and, obviously, different from the Catholic view, is that the mother’s life must take precedence.
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The link makes clear that Jewish Law regarding abortion is NOT a pro-choice position. Either the woman MUST have an abortion when her life is in danger or must NOT have an abortion in other circumstances. There is, however, also a gray area pertaining to the psychological health of the mother, which includes such occurrences as rape, incest, and unborn children who carry a genetic disease or have virtually no brain. My understanding is that some Orthodox rabbis permit abortion in these circumstances and may even require it, while others do not permit abortion. Further, when one looks at Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism, the interpretation of the Law concerning abortion changes somewhat.

Although I know that Jewish Law considers the mother’s life to take precedence over that of her unborn child (fundamentally based on only one passage from the Hebrew Bible and, later, the Midrash and the Talmudic concept of the “pursuer”), is this belief accepted by all Orthodox rabbis? IOW, can the mother knowingly sacrifice her own life for that of her unborn child without this being considered immoral? I think I already know the answer but feel the need to ask anyway.
 
meltzerboy said:
The link makes clear that Jewish Law regarding abortion is NOT a pro-choice position. Either the woman MUST have an abortion when her life is in danger or must NOT have an abortion in other circumstances. There is, however, also a gray area, including rape, incest, and unborn children who carry a genetic disease. My understanding is that some Orthodox rabbis permit abortion in these circumstances and may even require it, while others do not permit abortion. Further, when one looks at Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism, the interpretation of the Law changes somewhat.
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Inevitably, there’s always a lot of ‘on the one hand/on the other hand/meanwhile on yet another hand’ within any group in the Frum spectrum never mind between groups - and an opportunity to fill up libraries in the process.
Although I know that Jewish Law considers the mother’s life to take precedence over that of her unborn child (fundamentally based on one passage from the Hebrew Bible and, later, the Midrash and the concept of the “pursuer”), is this belief accepted by all Orthodox rabbis? IOW, can the mother knowingly sacrifice her own life for that of her unborn child without this being considered immoral? I think I already know the answer but feel the need to ask anyway.
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I’ve not come across an argument that it doesn’t take precedence. Perhaps the only way the ‘sacrifice’ situation would work would be if one considered that the woman wasn’t in her right mind at the time (like other suicides).
 
A bit of an aside (although not too far) to the topic, but since I have people of knowledge in front of me at this point in time…

Asking for an Orthodox Jewish perspective on a topic and expecting a definitive/consensus view would be asking for too much…but is there even a “mainstream”-ish view re: stem-cell research? I already know several perspectives from the Reformed and Conservative branches that seem to give a strong resounding support of the matter.

However, my path has yet to cross with those who self-identify into the Orthodox or Hassidic communities…
 
TheAtheist said:
A bit of an aside (although not too far) to the topic, but since I have people of knowledge in front of me at this point in time…

Asking for an Orthodox Jewish perspective on a topic and expecting a definitive/consensus view would be asking for too much…but is there even a “mainstream”-ish view re: stem-cell research? I already know several perspectives from the Reformed and Conservative branches that seem to give a strong resounding support of the matter.

However, my path has yet to cross with those who self-identify into the Orthodox or Hassidic communities…
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On the one hand, while on the other . . . .

Generally speaking, stem-cell research is regarded as OK but you’ll find voices who oppose it.
 
Kaninchen said:
On the one hand, while on the other . . . .

Generally speaking, stem-cell research is regarded as OK but you’ll find voices who oppose it.
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You need to identify what kind of stem cell research you are posting about. Adult stem cell or embryonic stem cell.
 
Shibolet said:
By transgression of the law, I mean, the law of cause and effect. That’s a natural law that has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. It applies to all of Mankind. Every transgression according to the law of cause and effect is by nature laid upon one’s own head. No mystery about it.

A baby is a baby from conception, but as long as it is not born, the life of the mother takes
precedence. To think otherwise is political badgering of women as a result of hypocrisy. If women go to a Rabbi to consult about abortion, they will never be told that they will end up in hell if they take upon themselves the decision to abort. Why? Because Jews do not believe in hell. There is no such a thing but in the minds of people with religious preconceived notions.
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I thought the concept of hell was in the OT. I never knew Jews didn’t believe it was real. So they must think those who do not go to heaven must not go anywhere after death. I guess Hitler gets a pass. :confused:
 
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