Why Aren't the Jewish People more Pro-life?

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No big deal. This happens even with the “Qohelets” of this world.
 
Shibolet said:
Thank you. All that you have said above only confirms my views of the Almighty. I only must add that God is indeed all-powerful to be or to do what He wills, but except what you demand or wish He did or should do. God is Spirit and, to subject Him to our wishes is anthropomorphism, which means to bring Him down to the level of man. (Num. 23:19)
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I’m sorry Shibolet, but I still do not understand. I think you mean to emphasize God’s complete “otherness” and hence you say we must speak of him only metaphorically. I’m not sure what you mean by my demanding what the Lord did or should do? and to be honest, I am not even conscience of what I am ‘wishing’ him to do? Now sometimes we imbibe things subconsciously and take things for granted. Perhaps this is my case and I am not conscious of my underlying assumption? I don’t think, vis-a-vis Num. 23:19, that I am accusing God of falsehood or change.
 
Shibolet said:
According to the Scriptures, Sheol is the grave and there is no other name to call it by. (Job 10:21; 2 Sam. 12:23)

The Witch of Endor did not summon up anyone’s ghost. It would be a blatant contradiction to the whole of God’s Word to admit so. Seance was a way of making a living by way of tricks. Since it was corrupting the minds of the people it became illegal to do so. Hence, the Witch Hunting adopted as a law. Now, tell me, did Saul see Samuel rising from the grave? No, he didn’t. He was being guided by whatever the Witch of Endor shrieked to make a real impression of authenticity. If Hudini was around at the time of the Witch of Endor, she wouldn’t have much of a chance to suceed, I tell you.
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On the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . .

Was the concept of an afterlife there in the text? I’d say it was, you say it wasn’t. It’s a bit like the other potential ‘afterlife’ passages you can interpret them as saying one thing or another.
 
A world entirely closed to me, I’m afraid. I started with Nancy Drew and it’s been crime fiction all the way since then.
It must be said also many ancient peoples seem to have a had somewhat ambigious view about what the afterlife was like and some cultures seem to have managed to hold two or three or more apparently contradictory views at the same time. A bit like today in fact actually.
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Then you have ‘let’s have drunk party and fight’ for eternity version of an afterlife (at least for those who died in battle) as seen in Nordic myth. 🙂
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I blame the Zoroastrians.
 
This seems to have been almost universal. Hades seems to have been the Greek equivalent: a vague and foggy idea of some “place” where the dead all go, with anyone’s guess as to what it was like. Even that seemed to be an improvement. Many cultures seemed to have no definite concept of an afterlife whatsoever.
 
1AugustSon7 said:
I’m sorry Shibolet, but I still do not understand. I think you mean to emphasize God’s complete “otherness” and hence you say we must speak of him only metaphorically. I’m not sure what you mean by my demanding what the Lord did or should do? and to be honest, I am not even conscience of what I am ‘wishing’ him to do? Now sometimes we imbibe things subconsciously and take things for granted. Perhaps this is my case and I am not conscious of my underlying assumption? I don’t think, vis-a-vis Num. 23:19, that I am accusing God of falsehood or change.
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I meant to say that by implying that God, being All Powerful, can do anything even, for instance, become a man, now, all of a sudden, we must believe that He became a man. That’s what I meant by wishing or demanding that He is subject to our wishes when He is not.
 
Kaninchen said:
On the one hand, while on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand . . .

Was the concept of an afterlife there in the text? I’d say it was, you say it wasn’t. It’s a bit like the other potential ‘afterlife’ passages you can interpret them as saying one thing or another.
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I hope you understand that we must do the best we can to prevent a contradiction to God’s
Word. That’s my mission in the conveying of the Truth. If we join the literal interpretation club, we might as well burn the whole Bible. It will have lost all credibility, anyways.
 
Shibolet said:
I hope you understand that we must do the best we can to prevent a contradiction to God’s
Word. That’s my mission in the conveying of the Truth. If we join the literal interpretation club, we might as well burn the whole Bible. It will have lost all credibility, anyways.
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“That’s very well said, and may all be true,” said Candide; “but let us cultivate our garden.”
 
Kaninchen said:
My Jewish Learning (one of the best sites for brief explanations of aspects of Judaism) has a useful overview of Jewish attitudes.

As an aside, we don’t share the Christian concept of ‘Original Sin’ so we don’t have the same worries Christians might have as to the ultimate fate of the unborn.
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Very interesting perspective with the fate, I would consider myself pro-life not because I’m worried about where the killed people are going (unborn or aged). Rather, that an invalid justice is being served to persons out of convenience for another person.

I do need to do more research on this subject with regard to what the Church teaches, but I don’t think for a second that my miscarried kid is anywhere but heaven. I think God is logical and His Mercy great.
 
Shibolet said:
In the 13 Principles of Faith by the Rambam, the principle that talks about resurrection comes right before the one about the coming of the Messiah. That’s exactly according to Ezekiel 37:12. It’s about the vision of the Dry Bones. But to make it easier for you to understand, take a look at Isaiah 53:8,9. When the Jews are forced into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel, and graves are assigned to them in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. At the end of the exile, Adonai opens those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. That’s absolutely no bodily resurrection but the kind of resurrection the Rambam describes in his 12th principle as preceding the coming of the Messiah in the 13th principle.

Well Meltzerboy, I have a better suggestion for a more fruitful dialogue with you. You say above that most Orthodox Jews believe in the afterlife because it is suggested in the Tanach, especially Torah. You can go right ahead and quote to me wherever in the Tanach
you take as a suggestion to any kind of life after death, and I’ll be more than happy to discuss it with you. This of appealing to authorities, I find it to be too fallacious.
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We are already somewhat off-topic: afterlife and eternal life rather than pro-life. And this topic might better be discussed on a Jewish forum albeit not too much since speculation about the afterlife is not a focus of Judaism. Nonetheless it has been my experience that most Orthodox Jews, while refraining from too much speculation, do believe in an afterlife. The idea in Judaism has evolved through the ages, and, as you probably know, there were different understandings about it from early on among the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and the twenty-odd other Jewish sects. Certainly one can understand its appeal, as well as the appeal of Christianity as a whole, in which the promise of an afterlife is a cornerstone of the religion.
 
Shibolet said:
No Oneofmany, the main atheistic purpose is to discard the existence of God. This of itself
separates Jews from atheists as the South is separated from the North. Why “no afterlife but the grave?” The grave is an afterlife status. What Jews don’t believe is in life after death. (Eccl. 12:7)

Where does it come that Jews don’t care about abortion? They simply reason about rights to life. Why should the one who is already living have to die for another who hasn’t even started to live?

Judgment day! When, in the here-and-now or in the hereafter? If it is in the afterlife, you ought to know that the Lord is not God of the dead but of the living. Death is the neutralizer
of everything one has done during life, good or bad. There is no longer anything to judge.

I liked your last question. Judaism and Christianity have absolutely nothing to do with each
other. Christianity is more akin to Hellenism, which stands against everything Judaism stands for. You are right by understanding that Judaism and Catholicism are not close at all to each other.
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Some of the early Jewish sects were also influenced by Hellenism. I think the OP means that if one does not believe in an afterlife, anything goes: that is, there is no morality and most likely no G-d. It is, I think, a false assumption, as well as a topic for another thread.
 
Shibolet said:
Manualman, I beg to disagree with you about the “futility” of consulting the Jewish position
on any issue as the Scriptures are concerned. Not if the question originates in the mind of any Christian researcher. The Hebrew Scriptures is after all the well wherefrom Christianity
draws its water.
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But from a secular basis, who defines what IS the Jewish position? Is it the Orthdox Rabbis, the Reformed, the Hassidics? What about when they disagree? Which one is actually the Jewish position?

I agree that if there were a consistent and authoritative interpreter of Jewish teaching that has endured for thousands of years that would be a VERY valuable resource to christians. Don’t take my words as a denigration of the content of the Covenant! My point is that with so many disagreeing claimants to authority, how do you choose which one is actually Jewish when there is a dispute? It seems very similar to the problems in protestantism.
 
manualman said:
But from a secular basis, who defines what IS the Jewish position? Is it the Orthdox Rabbis, the Reformed, the Hassidics? What about when they disagree? Which one is actually the Jewish position?

I agree that if there were a consistent and authoritative interpreter of Jewish teaching that has endured for thousands of years that would be a VERY valuable resource to christians. Don’t take my words as a denigration of the content of the Covenant! My point is that with so many disagreeing claimants to authority, how do you choose which one is actually Jewish when there is a dispute? It seems very similar to the problems in protestantism.
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Aren’t there disputes in Catholicism between the various Catholic orders? Still, there are certain basic dogmatic principles that virtually all adhere to. I think, to a certain extent, the same is true in Judaism. I also don’t think there are “claimants to authority” in Judaism as there may be in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Instead, there are different interpretations of Torah and Talmud within Orthodox Judaism and between Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Judaism. Yet, somehow, we get along based on fundamental moral principles of Judaism which we all share.
 
I can agree with him and you too, and much more, when we can acquire both together.
 
meltzerboy said:
We are already somewhat off-topic: afterlife and eternal life rather than pro-life. And this topic might better be discussed on a Jewish forum albeit not too much since speculation about the afterlife is not a focus of Judaism. Nonetheless it has been my experience that most Orthodox Jews, while refraining from too much speculation, do believe in an afterlife. The idea in Judaism has evolved through the ages, and, as you probably know, there were different understandings about it from early on among the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and the twenty-odd other Jewish sects. Certainly one can understand its appeal, as well as the appeal of Christianity as a whole, in which the promise of an afterlife is a cornerstone of the religion.
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Unfortunately, some Orthodox Jews have learned with Christianity to believe by faith when
they lack the understanding where Reason is required. Hence, they forbid themselves to
get into any kind of discussion about the afterlife. They almost know there is nothing there.
 
meltzerboy said:
Some of the early Jewish sects were also influenced by Hellenism. I think the OP means that if one does not believe in an afterlife, anything goes: that is, there is no morality and most likely no G-d. It is, I think, a false assumption, as well as a topic for another thread.
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From the 3rd Century BCE and until the 3rd ACE, all religions were influenced by Hellenism. Even Rome could not function without Hellenism.

If we need some kind of reward in the afterlife to prevent statements like “Anything goes,” is a moral tragedy. It means religous people bribe the Lord to serve Him. BTW, this concept was born with Paul who said, “If the dead won’t resurrect, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die.” (I Cor. 15:32) IOW, if there is nothing good in the afterlife, why waste our time? That’s conditional loyalty akin to bribing God as if He were a man. (Num. 23:19)

I don’t think there is any need to start a new thread on the afterlife because the OP about being the Jewish People pro-life par excellence has been evidenced beyond doubt.
 
manualman said:
But from a secular basis, who defines what IS the Jewish position? Is it the Orthdox Rabbis, the Reformed, the Hassidics? What about when they disagree? Which one is actually the Jewish position?

I agree that if there were a consistent and authoritative interpreter of Jewish teaching that has endured for thousands of years that would be a VERY valuable resource to christians. Don’t take my words as a denigration of the content of the Covenant! My point is that with so many disagreeing claimants to authority, how do you choose which one is actually Jewish when there is a dispute? It seems very similar to the problems in protestantism.
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“To the Law and the Prophets; if they don’t speak according to this method; it is because there is no light in them.” (Isa. 8:20) That’s the test to decide which position is the Jewish
position par excellence. The rest is commentary.
 
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