Why aren't there on demand priestly miracles?

[vz71]

The detailed explanations I have received, although well written, are not compelling in the least.

The RCC grants their priests the invisible acts of the apostles via apostolic succession.

How convenient that the visible acts of the apostles, other than spreading the gospel, are not passed down through apostolic succession.

But they have been.
As shown in many of the posts on this thread.

 

[hawkeye]

Do you think he’ll return after changing his user name to T-Roll?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks, I sprayed my pc laughing while reading this,

tooooo much.

 

[fbl9]

wasn’t St. Paul considered an apostle,are there any recorded miracles by him,heck how about the rest of the apostles.we know nothing about them neither.

 

[jcrichton]

come on peoples how does that go “be ye prudent as snakes yet gentle as doves”…one thing i am slowly learning on this forum is letting go of my bitterness towards christians outside of the church… they almost,well actually they did have me in their grasp.and when the truth dawned on me i was a bit more than teed off towards them.i know OTP hasn’t been exactly gracious in his/her post neither have i and i might say niether has any one else on this page.

…I don’t think people have been unkind… if you read through the posts you will find that only till the OP rejected the Church openly while still insisting that she prove herself to him did the charity stop. If you invite yourself to my home then begin to criticize everything from the entrence to the exit… why are you inviting yourself into my home? As it was explained before the Church does not subject anyone to her Authority since everyone (including Priests and Nuns) are free to remove themselves from the Body of Christ as they wish…

The problem I see with some is that they want the Church and the Word of God to cater to their personal beliefs.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If the OP really has been Catholic for 30+ years, it shows just how bad catechesis has been for the last 30 years.

…though Catechesis could be partially at fault, I do not think that we can blame the Church for the unreasonable expectations that many who reject the Faith seem to nurture nor the anger/hate that they harbor as they are consume by their personal failures.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **onetimeposter **

The detailed explanations I have received, although well written, are not compelling in the least.

The RCC grants their priests the invisible acts of the apostles via apostolic succession.

How convenient that the visible acts of the apostles, other than spreading the gospel, are not passed down through apostolic succession.

Maybe you ought to read this article and do some more research. It would probably be of benefit to you:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pio_of_Pietrelcina

 

[jcrichton]

Believe what you want, there is no means for which I could care less in regards to your arrogance and disdain for my faith journey and departure from what you call, ’ the one true Church.’

…you are reading much too much into these posts… I have no disdain for you nor am I arrogant when I express a sincere thought–retrace this thread and you will find that you began to openly reject the Church and the advise given to you… you then boasted of being on your way out for over 30 years and that you had no need to stay in the Church nor cared for the Church.

You ask that Catholics use Biblical passages to support their arguments while rejecting them and any explanation that is given to you… not a single person in the world can help you gain your Faith; when you reject the Church she will not send an armada to get you back–God Himself gave you the freedom to choose, no one can take that choice from you; yet, you seem to not be content with making your choice to leave the Church… why ask for assistance when you are bent on rejecting it? Why boast of being on your way out while requesting that the Church satisfy your demands? Why ask for clarification from Catholics when you already made up your mind that Catholicism is not part of your religious belief?

As I offered before, I can organize the various passages in a harmonious study format–but I cannot aide your Faith, I can only pray for you and point you to the Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

My truth.

The Church has filled me with nothing except fear, anxiety and a feeling of never being able to live up or meet the required standards.

The more I learned, the worse I felt, the harder I tried, the worse I failed.

I have not forced my unbelief upon my will, rather I have simplified what I want in this life.

Letting go of what I thought were my beliefs…has been my freedom.

I had wished that I could have the same feelings of a lot people, that I could sit in a Catholic Church and remain blissfully happy in my unbelief and contradictory life, juxtaposed with the Church.

That is not fair to me or the RCC.

I would hope that if we were all in a Catholic Church, and I walked out the doors…I would hope that those of you cheering at my departure within this forum…would not cheer my departure inside or outside the Church doors.

If you would cheer my departure from a Church…

Remember, I am not alone in feeling this way:

usao.edu/~facshaferi/canada/english2.htm

Here follows the text of the message presented to the Executive Committee of the Canadian Catholic Conference of Bishops by Catholics of Vision: Canada, on August 28, 1997, following the completion of the signature campaign.

**
WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED**
A picture of the Catholic Church in Canada emerges from the letters, phone calls, interviews, talk shows, press articles and reports from area leaders. We have summarized below what we have heard and learned:

* a) for many, their experience of Church is one of **pain and rejection.** Those who voiced feelings of pain and rejection include: gays, lesbians and their families, the divorced and remarried; single parent families; nuclear families, the economically deprived; those living in closed and/or priest-less parishes; individuals opposed to aspects of current Church discipline; and many women;
* b) support for a married and/or female clergy is strong. Regular access to eucharistic celebration is more important that a restrictive law;
* c) many see minimal dialogue between Bishops and informed laity. There is a general attitude that the Canadian Bishops have failed to resist the growing centralization of power in Rome, and the fundamentalist Catholic groups which support such centralization;
* d) **there is much fear among Catholics**, especially among those employed by or doing business with Catholic organizations;
* e) apathy and/or **hopelessness characterize many Catholics' understanding of Church;**
* f) there is an urgent need for sound adult education programs and preaching in our parishes:

No one is cheering your departure… my desire is that Christians Unite as Jesus Called us to Be One… but the fact is that too many do not desire unity but self-autonomy.

Show me one single passage in the Holy Scriptures where people came to Jesus with lists of the things they wanted Him to accomplish and the things they wanted Him to stop doing… there isn’t!

Even when they began to leave Him after He demanded that they eat His flesh and drink His blood… Jesus did not change His Teachings; rather, He restated it!

It would be wonderful to have a church that allows anything and everything and still bless its members… wait!, it’s call secularism! …this church accepts you as you are and as you want to be… it goes as far as allowing animals to be married and even the odd person to marry him/herself or something else (animal or thing)… you can drink, ingest and smoke all you want; you can practice anything and everything… none will judge you; none will hold you accountable; none will demand that you change one single thing–lest that is your “thing.”

…as with any group of people, many Catholics live their Faith in the fringes of Truth–accepting only those things that they feel it’s OK by them; they are not fooling the Church nor God; they are simply deceiving themselves. If you do not want to be like them and you recongnize that you cannot live up to the Church’s standards you have taken an important step towards being Catholic; if you cannot live up to the Faith because you consciously engage in activities which are forbidden by the Church then you have two clear choices: a) submit to the Church or (b) reject the Church… sadly, too many are doing both: they stay in the Church and reject her Teachings; Jesus commanded that we should not be double minded: “…let your yes mean yes and your no mean no…”

…wish lists are wonderful; obedience is painful… which one did Jesus delegate to the Apostles?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Fifth - Remember that the Church has produced many Saints as well as many sinners. I hope that you can say that you have met both kinds here at the Boards.
James

Hi, James!

…I did not know that the Church was in the business of producing sinners… could you expand on that?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JRKH]

Hi, James!

…I did not know that the Church was in the business of producing sinners… could you expand on that?

Maran atha!

Angel

Poor choice of words perhaps.

Certainly the church is not in the business of “producing” sinners and she does not do so. Of course teh church does not “produce” saints either. Each individual is responsible for their own journey in Christ. The Church can merely provide the teachings and structure to help. She is a resource and not a production line.

Peace
James

 

[onetimeposter]

No one is cheering your departure… my desire is that Christians Unite as Jesus Called us to Be One… but the fact is that too many do not desire unity but self-autonomy.

Show me one single passage in the Holy Scriptures where people came to Jesus with lists of the things they wanted Him to accomplish and the things they wanted Him to stop doing… there isn’t!

RCC does not believe in Sola Scriptura, unless it is convenient I suppose?

There isn’t any scripture.

Even when they began to leave Him after He demanded that they eat His flesh and drink His blood… Jesus did not change His Teachings; rather, He restated it!
**
Then said the words I speak are spirit, the flesh profits nothing. Secondly, no where is it written or suggested that ordained clergy will have the power to summon the Holy Spirit to change bread into the flesh of Christ. " Do this in memory of me" does not mean, ’ ordained clergy will have the power to summon the Holy Spirit to turn bread into flesh’**

It would be wonderful to have a church that allows anything and everything and still bless its members… wait!, it’s call secularism! …this church accepts you as you are and as you want to be… it goes as far as allowing animals to be married and even the odd person to marry him/herself or something else (animal or thing)… you can drink, ingest and smoke all you want; you can practice anything and everything… none will judge you; none will hold you accountable; none will demand that you change one single thing–lest that is your “thing.”

**What a radical thought you are proposing, God accepts and loves us for who we are. Now lets work on allowing that love to transform our lives. Lets worry more about this life and what God can help us accomplish here…I like the sound of that. Jesus was an inclusive man after all. **

…as with any group of people, many Catholics live their Faith in the fringes of Truth–accepting only those things that they feel it’s OK by them; they are not fooling the Church nor God; they are simply deceiving themselves. If you do not want to be like them and you recongnize that you cannot live up to the Church’s standards you have taken an important step towards being Catholic; if you cannot live up to the Faith because you consciously engage in activities which are forbidden by the Church then you have two clear choices:

…or I cannot live up to the Faith because some Catholic beliefs I do not believe in and I cannot submit to the magesterium in Rome.

a) submit to the Church or (b) reject the Church… sadly, too many are doing both: they stay in the Church and reject her Teachings; Jesus commanded that we should not be double minded: “…let your yes mean yes and your no mean no…”
**
Jesus did say he would spit out the luke warm water…be hot or cold…if you don’t believe…why stay? Out of habit, out of fear?**

 

[peary]

Poor choice of words perhaps.

Certainly the church is not in the business of “producing” sinners and she does not do so. Of course teh church does not “produce” saints either. Each individual is responsible for their own journey in Christ. The Church can merely provide the teachings and structure to help. She is a resource and not a production line.

Peace
James

****Good Lord, man! OF COURSE the Church is in the business of producing ‘saints’. Each of us is CALLED to sainthood. It is through sacramental grace that we attain for Heaven!

It may be true that each individual is responsible for their own journey in Christ - but it is only partly true. That is why there is the Church - no man is an island. We cannot do that by ourselves. We need others to help and guide us along the way. It’s called FAITH, HOPE, and, above all, CHARITY (LOVE) for one another.****

 

[JRKH]

****Good Lord, man! OF COURSE the Church is in the business of producing ‘saints’. Each of us is CALLED to sainthood. It is through sacramental grace that we attain for Heaven!

It may be true that each individual is responsible for their own journey in Christ - but it is only partly true. That is why there is the Church - no man is an island. We cannot do that by ourselves. We need others to help and guide us along the way. It’s called FAITH, HOPE, and, above all, CHARITY (LOVE) for one another.****

I don’t want to get into a discussion of this meaning or that meaning. I explained myself as best I could.

To me the term “produce” means to make, or manufacture. In that sense the Church can no more make a saint than it can make a sinner. The Church is a prositive and vital resource, but it is the individual within the Church who, by the graces of God, becomes saintly. Yes we are called to Holiness, to Sainthood. That doesn’t mean that can’t ignore or reject that call. it also doesn’t mean we cannot squander the gifts given us by the Church.

A farmer (the church) can plow and plant and water, but if the seed (the individual) is bad, he will produce nothing. Same with the Church.

Peace
James

 

[jcrichton]

Poor choice of words perhaps.

Certainly the church is not in the business of “producing” sinners and she does not do so. Of course teh church does not “produce” saints either. Each individual is responsible for their own journey in Christ. The Church can merely provide the teachings and structure to help. She is a resource and not a production line.

Peace
James

…I thought it might be just that… but since so many people are looking for short-cuts and special deals I thought that we should clarify the statement–I still find a few here and there that maintain that the Catholic Church is keeping secrets from the rest of the world… though by inference they are suggesting that the Catholic Church is mightier than God since the Vatican has appropriated these revelations for the benefit and use of only Catholics… they can’t see the forest for the tree!

Thank you for your clarification.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

RCC does not believe in Sola Scriptura, unless it is convenient I suppose?

The Catholic Church has never sponsored the idea that you must rely solely on the Holy Scriptures… you are confusing protestanism with Catholicism.

Then said the words I speak are spirit, the flesh profits nothing. Secondly, no where is it written or suggested that ordained clergy will have the power to summon the Holy Spirit to change bread into the flesh of Christ. " Do this in memory of me" does not mean, ’ ordained clergy will have the power to summon the Holy Spirit to turn bread into flesh’

…how many times did Jesus emphasized that? How many people said that they did not understand that?.. you continue to use Scriptures selectively… Jesus demanded that we eat His flesh and drink His blood and when people became pious and squeamish about it here’s what He said:

Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. (St. John 6:53)

Did Jesus’ Word escape the Apostles? Here’s what St. Paul had to say when the Church at Corinth had problems undestanding it:

The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? (1 Corinthians 10:16)

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, 24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:23-29)

Was St. Paul forcing the Church to hold as Sacred something that was merely symbolic? Are we now, nearly two thousand years removed, more knowledgeable than Jesus’ Apostles? Is the Holy Spirit somehow leading a new Church–one without Jesus’ Commandments?

It would be wonderful to have a church that allows anything and everything and still bless its members… wait!, it’s called secularism! …this church accepts you as you are and as you want to be… it goes as far as allowing animals to be married and even the odd person to marry him/herself or something else (animal or thing)… you can drink, ingest and smoke all you want; you can practice anything and everything… none will judge you; none will hold you accountable; none will demand that you change one single thing–lest that is your "thing."
What a radical thought you are proposing, God accepts and loves us for who we are. Now lets work on allowing that love to transform our lives. Lets worry more about this life and what God can help us accomplish here…I like the sound of that. Jesus was an inclusive man after all.

Please re-read the content–I am not proposing anything but stating the actual affairs of the world in comparison to the Holy Scriptures and the Church.

…if you cannot live up to the Faith because you consciously engage in activities which are forbidden by the Church then you have two clear choices: a) submit to the Church or (b) reject the Church… sadly, too many are doing both: they stay in the Church and reject her Teachings;

…or I cannot live up to the Faith because some Catholic beliefs I do not believe in and I cannot submit to the magesterium in Rome.

…it seems that you are under the wrong impression that the Catholic Church is some sort of social club where people’s opinions shape its functions… the Church will not force you to accept her Doctrines but to be part of the Church you must be obedient and loyal to it.

Jesus did say he would spit out the luke warm water…be hot or cold…if you don’t believe…why stay? Out of habit, out of fear?

Yes He did state that… but His desire continues to be that we choose to obey Him… we have in front of us “Life” and death; we must choose Life in order that we shall Live!

Maran atha!

Angel