Why aren't women allowed to be priests?

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It is simple, if you, like all Catholics, place so much authority in the Pope and official church teaching. However, I’m simply stating the obvious in saying that non-Catholics don’t place that same weight in the Pope, the Magesterium, etc. SO posting those links, and reading those quotes, doesn’t necessarily end the conversation.
All authority comes from God. The Church as an institution was created by God to carry out His will. Jesus promised the Church that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all truth. So, tell me, why should I not trust the Church to tell me the truth?
Of course the Church changes stuff! Not many masses are done in Latin anymore, right?
How is the relevant?
 
All authority comes from God. The Church as an institution was created by God to carry out His will. Jesus promised the Church that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church to all truth. So, tell me, why should I not trust the Church to tell me the truth?
David, you are completely free to believe that.

I do not. Hence, our lively discussion of all of the theological details on these discussion boards!
How is the relevant?
Doctrine changes. Just reminding of what you already know. Yes, I know that, for you, dogma doesn’t change, but doctrine does.

When I see statements like “the Church doesn’t change”, I feel the need to restate the obvious. I once read an account of the Papal States; several of the Popes were so ‘against modernity’ that they refused to allow things like railroads and gas street lights to be constructed in the Papal states.
 
The relationship of the Holy Trinity is one of divine love, each equally giving and receiving to one another of each other. I believe the Church and the family to be expressions of the Holy Trinity. That is why I believe the family can function as a complete unit, because God is complete in Himself and each member gives equally to the other.
I agree that the family is an expression of the Holy Trinity, but I think the metaphor breaks down on two points:
  1. The Trinity is co-eternal – the 3 persons didn’t pop into existence one after the other (or at all) – but man and woman were created, and man came first, then came the woman as a helpmate to the man. Paul gives this order of creation weight when he says, “For Adam was first formed, then Eve” (1 Tim 2:13) in his justification for why the woman ought not to have authority over the man in the Church. While Paul does not explicitly make this same argument with regard to authority in the household, it’s not unreasonable to think he would do so. (And note that this justification is drawn from how humanity was brought into existence before the Fall, so my next point might have less weight than I originally thought.)
  2. It may have been possible for the family to exist without a definite authority structure prior to the Fall, when Adam and Eve were perfect persons who had no inclinations whatsoever that would have disrupted such a harmony, but human beings aren’t perfect anymore. We live with concupiscence, and concupiscence requires us to have authority structures that we otherwise would not have needed.
That’s assuming the author intended it to be taken this as a literal story. Lots of evidence exists the author did not intend this to be taken as a literal story.
Lots of evidence against literalism exists today, sure, but it seems clear to me that the Apostles and the Fathers certainly took these stories literally. We may disagree with them on the factual nature of the stories, I suppose, but are we going to overturn their teachings which were based upon those stories, on the grounds that God gave them bad information, or at best didn’t make it clear to them that He was only speaking figuratively?

–Mike
 
It is simple, if you, like all Catholics, place so much authority in the Pope and official church teaching. However, I’m simply stating the obvious in saying that non-Catholics don’t place that same weight in the Pope, the Magesterium, etc. SO posting those links, and reading those quotes, doesn’t necessarily end the conversation.

Of course the Church changes stuff! Not many masses are done in Latin anymore, right?
I was there before Vatican II and after Vatican II and my desire was to remain obedient to the Church. I was in Catholic school at the time and the nuns explained the Mass was in English and the priest was facing us to encourage greater participation of those attending. God did not change, the Mass was in English but it was the same Mass.

God bless,
Ed
 
David, you are completely free to believe that.

I do not. Hence, our lively discussion of all of the theological details on these discussion boards!

Doctrine changes. Just reminding of what you already know. Yes, I know that, for you, dogma doesn’t change, but doctrine does.

When I see statements like “the Church doesn’t change”, I feel the need to restate the obvious. I once read an account of the Papal States; several of the Popes were so ‘against modernity’ that they refused to allow things like railroads and gas street lights to be constructed in the Papal states.
There are lots areas where the Church has not ruled definitively and lively discussions are allowed and even encouraged. I am certain that in this particular case that the only reasonable discussion is about why the Church has ruled as she has. Do you have evidence that she has been untruthful in this particular case?
 
I agree that the family is an expression of the Holy Trinity, but I think the metaphor breaks down on two points:
  1. The Trinity is co-eternal – the 3 persons didn’t pop into existence one after the other (or at all) – but man and woman were created, and man came first, then came the woman as a helpmate to the man. Paul gives this order of creation weight when he says, “For Adam was first formed, then Eve” (1 Tim 2:13) in his justification for why the woman ought not to have authority over the man in the Church. While Paul does not explicitly make this same argument with regard to authority in the household, it’s not unreasonable to think he would do so. (And note that this justification is drawn from how humanity was brought into existence before the Fall, so my next point might have less weight than I originally thought.)
  2. It may have been possible for the family to exist without a definite authority structure prior to the Fall, when Adam and Eve were perfect persons who had no inclinations whatsoever that would have disrupted such a harmony, but human beings aren’t perfect anymore. We live with concupiscence, and concupiscence requires us to have authority structures that we otherwise would not have needed.
–Mike
I don’t believe I suggested in my posts that women should have authority over men. Apologies if my words suggested this.

I agree the relationship between men and women became distorted as a consequence of sin. This is one of the reasons why some men believe a relationship can only work if the woman is subordinate to the man. Admittedly, such a relationship works well for the one who dominates. Wouldn’t it be a great world if only everyone else thought as we thought, did what we wanted them do, and subordinated themselves to our way of thinking. Such a relationship falls short of the ideal, the relationship being a mirror of the relationship of the Holy Trinty. It means one party in the relationship remains unfulfilled.

We humans are very bad at relationships. We believe there must always be a dominant partner for a relationship to succeed. There is no doubt, that working together in unity is much more difficult than working together in harmony. Such a relationship will be harder work than one that depends on subordination to succeed. There is no doubt relationships are easier when one party ‘knows their place.’ This is not the ideal. Despite how difficult the ideal is, the ideal being the relationship of the Holy Trinity, this ideal did not change when man sinned. Yes, it became much more difficult, as God prophecied, and it can only be accomplished by grace, but it did not change.

As I have said, ‘authority’ in the divine sense is not dependant on the subordination of another. We humans have difficulty understanding how someone can have greater resonsibility, or different responsibilities, in the absence of the subordination of others. This again is a distortion of relationships due to sin and because we humans have a human perception of ‘authority’ and not a divine one.

The relationship between a parent and their child does not depend on unquestioning obediance. It may do, when a child is very young and does not have the experience of life necessary to reason and the cognitive development to reason. Sooner or later, they will and ‘authority’ takes on a different meaning. The adult child continues to respect their parents because they chose to give that child life and give so much of themselves to the child in raising them. However, it does not mean the parent should always be in the driving seat of the child’s life. Therefore, it is not necessary for the husband to always be in the driving seat of the wife’s life. Rather, it is an equal giving of self, as in the relationship of the Holy Trinity.

The same can be said of relationships within the Church. God raise up leaders, but he raises them to be servants of others. God raised up prophets, judges, apostles to guide others to him. He did not raise them up to have followers\disciples\subordinates of their own. Leadership in the divine sense does not mean subordination of others, but creating unity. A great example of leadership that creates unity while not expecting others to be subordinate was Ghandi. I’m sure there are other great leaders who could be mentioned. Was Jesus different? Did he think relationships can only work when one party is ‘ruled’ by another?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, teachings regarding the authority of men over women comes from interpretations of the Pauline letters. These teachings focus on certain words such as; ‘authority,’ and ‘subject.’ The original writing was not written in chapter and verse. They were letters. Therefore, the entire letter was to be read and as a letter, we cannot formulate a divine teaching because one word of an English translation reads ‘subject.’ ‘Subject’ may have had a whole different meaning in Greek and a whole different meaning to the first century Church reading the letter. If we want to know the divine meaning behind Paul’s words, it is important to consider the historical backdrop, the literary construction of the letter, why he wrote the letter, and what divine truth he was attempting to impart. In addition, Christ’s teaching on the status of women and divorce was quite radical for the time. Many Bible scholars believe he words denote a call to live the ideal I have discussed above. Interpretations of the Pauline letters that are inconsistent with the Gospels should be reconsidered to establish their true meaning.
 
I don’t believe I suggested in my posts that women should have authority over men. Apologies if my words suggested this.

I agree the relationship between men and women became distorted as a consequence of sin. This is one of the reasons why some men believe a relationship can only work if the woman is subordinate to the man. Admittedly, such a relationship works well for the one who dominates. Wouldn’t it be a great world if only everyone else thought as we thought, did what we wanted them do, and subordinated themselves to our way of thinking. Such a relationship falls short of the ideal, the relationship being a mirror of the relationship of the Holy Trinty. It means one party in the relationship remains unfulfilled.

We humans are very bad at relationships. We believe there must always be a dominant partner for a relationship to succeed. There is no doubt, that working together in unity is much more difficult than working together in harmony. Such a relationship will be harder work than one that depends on subordination to succeed. There is no doubt relationships are easier when one party ‘knows their place.’ This is not the ideal. Despite how difficult the ideal is, the ideal being the relationship of the Holy Trinity, this ideal did not change when man sinned. Yes, it became much more difficult, as God prophecied, and it can only be accomplished by grace, but it did not change.

As I have said, ‘authority’ in the divine sense is not dependant on the subordination of another. We humans have difficulty understanding how someone can have greater resonsibility, or different responsibilities, in the absence of the subordination of others. This again is a distortion of relationships due to sin and because we humans have a human perception of ‘authority’ and not a divine one.

The relationship between a parent and their child does not depend on unquestioning obediance. It may do, when a child is very young and does not have the experience of life necessary to reason and the cognitive development to reason. Sooner or later, they will and ‘authority’ takes on a different meaning. The adult child continues to respect their parents because they chose to give that child life and give so much of themselves to the child in raising them. However, it does not mean the parent should always be in the driving seat of the child’s life. Therefore, it is not necessary for the husband to always be in the driving seat of the wife’s life. Rather, it is an equal giving of self, as in the relationship of the Holy Trinity.

The same can be said of relationships within the Church. God raise up leaders, but he raises them to be servants of others. God raised up prophets, judges, apostles to guide others to him. He did not raise them up to have followers\disciples\subordinates of their own. Leadership in the divine sense does not mean subordination of others, but creating unity. A great example of leadership that creates unity while not expecting others to be subordinate was Ghandi. I’m sure there are other great leaders who could be mentioned. Was Jesus different? Did he think relationships can only work when one party is ‘ruled’ by another?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, teachings regarding the authority of men over women comes from interpretations of the Pauline letters. These teachings focus on certain words such as; ‘authority,’ and ‘subject.’ The original writing was not written in chapter and verse. They were letters. Therefore, the entire letter was to be read and as a letter, we cannot formulate a divine teaching because one word of an English translation reads ‘subject.’ ‘Subject’ may have had a whole different meaning in Greek and a whole different meaning to the first century Church reading the letter. If we want to know the divine meaning behind Paul’s words, it is important to consider the historical backdrop, the literary construction of the letter, why he wrote the letter, and what divine truth he was attempting to impart. In addition, Christ’s teaching on the status of women and divorce was quite radical for the time. Many Bible scholars believe he words denote a call to live the ideal I have discussed above. Interpretations of the Pauline letters that are inconsistent with the Gospels should be reconsidered to establish their true meaning.
I don’t understand why those letters need to be reconsidered to get their true meaning. The Teaching Authority of the Church is the Teaching Authority of the Church. The Bible is quite clear about the way husbands should regard their wives and how wives should regard their husbands. The problem that was created by a small group was to create a permanent state of class warfare between men and women. That is the problem.

God bless,
Ed
 
I don’t understand why those letters need to be reconsidered to get their true meaning. The Teaching Authority of the Church is the Teaching Authority of the Church. The Bible is quite clear about the way husbands should regard their wives and how wives should regard their husbands. The problem that was created by a small group was to create a permanent state of class warfare between men and women. That is the problem.

God bless,
Ed
The views I have expressed are the views of Church. They are not of my own orientation. Pius XII wrote extensively on interpreting Bible texts and a commentary written by Williamson outlines the Church’s views on Catholic exegesis. Believe me I did not come up with all I have said on my own. I am a student at a Catholic teacher training college and my main subject is RS. Catholic exegesis is one of my modules and we study approaches to interpreting scripture in accordance with Church teaching.

A relationship that mirrors the Holy Trinty does not create class warfare. The Church teaches marriage is an equal partnership. The Church teaches divine truths are nuanced in scripture. There are people today who insist the world was created in six 24 hour days because it clearly states this in the Bible. This being the case, there is a need to look at scripture again.
 
The views I have expressed are the views of Church. They are not of my own orientation. Pius XII wrote extensively on interpreting Bible texts and a commentary written by Williamson outlines the Church’s views on Catholic exegesis. Believe me I did not come up with all I have said on my own. I am a student at a Catholic teacher training college and my main subject is RS. Catholic exegesis is one of my modules and we study approaches to interpreting scripture in accordance with Church teaching.

A relationship that mirrors the Holy Trinty does not create class warfare. The Church teaches marriage is an equal partnership. The Church teaches divine truths are nuanced in scripture. There are people today who insist the world was created in six 24 hour days because it clearly states this in the Bible. This being the case, there is a need to look at scripture again.
And what is the problem with those who insist that the world was created in six 24 hour days? You will see that the Church permits a Catholic to believe thousands of years have passed or much longer. This is not a typographical error.

God bless,
Ed
 
And what is the problem with those who insist that the world was created in six 24 hour days? You will see that the Church permits a Catholic to believe thousands of years have passed or much longer. This is not a typographical error.

God bless,
Ed
I already see that the Church permits Catholics to believe pretty much what they want in relation to the time scale of creation. This is due to the fact that the Church had not defined infallibly how long the creative ‘days’ were, and because one will not loose salvation irrespective of how long one believe’s the creative days were. However, focusing on such details detracts from the divine message the author was attempting to communicate in the Genesis account of creation. If we read the Bible in a very literal manner we also miss out on the rich imagery of the text and a very literal reading disables what some scholars term a Catholic, or a sacramental imagination.

I did not say it was a typographical error. The Church does not ignore the scientific evidence and the problem with the world being created in six twenty four hour days is scientific evidence, and the fact that evidence abounds that the author did not intend the reader to understand the term ‘day’ to mean a 24 hour period. To another Catholic, it would not matter how long you believed the creative days were, but if we want to pass on our faith to those with no belief, this interpretation creates a problem. It would be difficult to pass on faith to an athesist if we insisted the message the author wanted to communicate was that God created the world in six 24 hour days.
 
I already see that the Church permits Catholics to believe pretty much what they want in relation to the time scale of creation. This is due to the fact that the Church had not defined infallibly how long the creative ‘days’ were, and because one will not loose salvation irrespective of how long one believe’s the creative days were. However, focusing on such details detracts from the divine message the author was attempting to communicate in the Genesis account of creation. If we read the Bible in a very literal manner we also miss out on the rich imagery of the text and a very literal reading disables what some scholars term a Catholic, or a sacramental imagination.

I did not say it was a typographical error. The Church does not ignore the scientific evidence and the problem with the world being created in six twenty four hour days is scientific evidence, and the fact that evidence abounds that the author did not intend the reader to understand the term ‘day’ to mean a 24 hour period. To another Catholic, it would not matter how long you believed the creative days were, but if we want to pass on our faith to those with no belief, this interpretation creates a problem. It would be difficult to pass on faith to an athesist if we insisted the message the author wanted to communicate was that God created the world in six 24 hour days.
That would be the atheist’s only impediment? What about believing the Real Presence? Or the value of Eucharistic Adoration? Or the reality of miracles, which, right now, Catholics around the world are waiting for two to be attributed to Pope John Paul II? I don’t think this one issue would be the only real problem.

God bless,
Ed
 
and,

A real man knows who is head of the house…

and how to keep her happy:thumbsup:
This reminds me of a story.

A millionaire and his wife were driving along the highway when they saw a ditch digger digging by the side of the highway. “Stop, stop!” said his wife, “I used to date him when I was in high school and I want to say hello to him!”

So the millionaire stopped the car, and she got out while he waited, and went to speak with her former boyfriend. After a while she returned, and delicately brushed the dirt from her shoes before putting her feet on to the beautiful carpet of their car.

Noticing this, the millionaire said to his wife, “Aren’t you so glad that you married me, instead of him, since I became a millionaire, and he is only a ditch digger?”

“My darling,” she said to him, “I married you because I loved you more; not because you were going to be a millionaire. After all, if I had married him instead, he would have become the millionaire, and you would have become the ditch digger.”
 
A lot of debate indeed! Further, Jesus had among his apostles married men. It was Peter who decided that they should be celibate. The argument “well, Jesus wouldn’t have wanted it that way” has always felt very weak to me.
Peter decided it? I’ve never heard that before. As he was married, it seems unlikely. Can you give us a reference? Thanks.
 
Read the Bible,it say’s a woman shall not address the congregation.
That has nothing to do with this topic. The Bible (and the same St. Paul) also gives guidance on women when they DO address the congregation.
 
That has nothing to do with this topic. The Bible (and the same St. Paul) also gives guidance on women when they DO address the congregation.
Yes - which means that there were appropriate times when they could do so, and times when it was inappropriate for them to do so - hmmm, much as it is in today’s Church, looky there. 🙂
 
Because the Church isn’t groom, the Church is bride - the husband (bridegroom) is Christ. You can’t have a male (Christ, represented by the priest) marrying another male (Church) - it’s unnatural.
So males can’t be part of the Church?
 
That would be the atheist’s only impediment? What about believing the Real Presence? Or the value of Eucharistic Adoration? Or the reality of miracles, which, right now, Catholics around the world are waiting for two to be attributed to Pope John Paul II? I don’t think this one issue would be the only real problem.

God bless,
Ed
No, this one issue would not be the only real problem, I agree. I suppose I have introduced a bit of red herring into the equation. I was using the Genesis account of creation to illustrate how focusing on one word in a passage of scripture, and understanding them in relative isolation from the overall theme detracts from the divine truth the author is attempting to impart.

To illustrate further, I have actually found it quite difficult to express the beliefs I have concerning relationships in an internet post. :banghead:

There are occasions when people reading my posts have understood my words in a way I did not intend them to be taken because of certain terminology I have used, or because of the way I have expressed myself.

I find it much easier to talk to people face to face than to write everything down. I mean, you could write forever and still not fully express what you mean. :manvspc:
 
Peter decided it? I’ve never heard that before. As he was married, it seems unlikely. Can you give us a reference? Thanks.
OK, poor choice of verb selection on my part. I’ll replace with “strong early advocate of”.
 
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