Why be Catholic?

[lorathon]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.
2. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.
3. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?
4. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?
5. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
6. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
7. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

 

[JRKH]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.
2. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.
3. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?
4. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?
5. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
6. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
7. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

This can be confusing.
To answer your initial question, we become Catholic to share in the Fullness of Truth.
This does not mean that others do not have truth outside the Church, but it is not the Fullness of Truth.
Then there are those who have never been exposed to or truly understodd the Gospel through no fault of their own. These will be judged differently.

I’m sure others will be able to give much better answers but for now
Here is a link to a searchable Catachism. It is a great resource.
I would suggest typing in “ignorance” and “Fullness of Truth” and Outside the Church. See what comes up.

Peace
James

 

[lorathon]

I can wrap my mind around the ignornace thing. I have an Uncle that is a Fransican Priest. I asked him once.

Will the people that have never even heard of Christ, and have lead morals lives, still go to Heaven. He responded with a question for me. If you were God woulf you left them in? I said sure. Its not their fault. He then left me with another question. Are you more merciful than God?

So I get that part. Its the people that KNOW about the Church. The people that have been exposed to it.

If I live a Moral life, and never go to Mass, am I going to Heaven?

I am trying to keep it to just one example (Sunday Obligation) There are many other views within some Mainstream Prodestant churches that are dirrectly contradictory to Catholic teaching. And I really cant see how following some of those tenants would allow you to get into Heaven if I can’t believe them being a Catholic.

 

[JRKH]

I can wrap my mind around the ignornace thing. I have an Uncle that is a Fransican Priest. I asked him once.

Will the people that have never even heard of Christ, and have lead morals lives, still go to Heaven. He responded with a question for me. If you were God woulf you left them in? I said sure. Its not their fault. He then left me with another question. Are you more merciful than God?

So I get that part. Its the people that KNOW about the Church. The people that have been exposed to it.

If I live a Moral life, and never go to Mass, am I going to Heaven?

I am trying to keep it to just one example (Sunday Obligation) There are many other views within some Mainstream Prodestant churches that are dirrectly contradictory to Catholic teaching. And I really cant see how following some of those tenants would allow you to get into Heaven if I can’t believe them being a Catholic.

I am not God and so am not your judge, but since you are asking:

Assuming you are Catholic and you "Never Go To Mass then:
NO - you will not go to heaven and the reason is simple. You are deliberately violating an obligation to God which you take on as part of being Catholic. You are committing a sin and you know it when you do it. This makes you culpable for that sin with no mitigating circumstances.

Things can get very complicated from here on so let’s be careful how we proceed.

Peace
James

 

[lorathon]

So if we go by that logic.

If a person who had been Catholic and then fell away. They are doomed. To have been in the fullness and to regect it. I got that.

So basically stated. Since I now have the “Fullness” of the Church, I could not be saved outside of the Church. Is that correct?

But if I never became a Catholic, I could go down the street to the Harvest Church and would possibly be saved even if I believe in some of their views such as contraception?

 

[puzzleannie]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

.

because while there is always the possibility that God saves whomever he pleases, there is no guarantee that those not in communion with the Church, the instrument Christ established to mediate his saving grace on earth, will be saved. God decreed no one is saved outside the Catholic Church. That does not mean one must belong formally to the Church. That means that all who are saved come to God only through Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ operates through the Church he founded. Even those who never hear his name or his gospel, if they are saved, are saved through His merits, by no other means.

 

[VociMike]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.
2. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.
3. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?
4. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?
5. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
6. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
7. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

Your problem is that you’re asking the wrong question. The question is not, why do you need to be Catholic. The question is, why, knowing what God has generously revealed to you, would you not want to be Catholic?

As a Catholic:

You have the fullness of God’s revelation - nobody else has that.

You have the fullness of God’s grace in the Sacraments - nobody else has that.

You have accepted God’s entire gift that is his Church - others are not given that gift, or even worse, they pick through it and only keep the parts they want (as though any part of a gift from God wasn’t good enough )

Yes, this wonderful gift you have received does entail some obligations on your part, but are they not obligations that you burn to fulfill, knowing that God desires them of you, and that you will receive great graces through them, and that you will be judged on your loving obedience?

Like I said, why would anybody not want to be Catholic?!

 

[JRKH]

So if we go by that logic.

If a person who had been Catholic and then fell away. They are doomed. To have been in the fullness and to regect it. I got that.

So basically stated. Since I now have the “Fullness” of the Church, I could not be saved outside of the Church. Is that correct?

Without getting into all of the possible “what-if’s” yes that is correct.

But if I never became a Catholic, I could go down the street to the Harvest Church and would possibly be saved even if I believe in some of their views such as contraception?

Here again, we have to be careful.
Yes - So long as you are completely convicted in those beliefs you “would possibly be saved”.

I’m going to place a caveat here so you know that I am only stating my understanding of these things. For a fuller understanding I suggest you look at the Catachism.

Peace
James

 

[lorathon]

That does not mean one must belong formally to the Church. That means that all who are saved come to God only through Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ operates through the Church he founded. Even those who never hear his name or his gospel, if they are saved, are saved through His merits, by no other means.

You know I really do understand that. It is more the question of how can these people even have the chance (other than saying it is up to God) of salvation if they believe in contradictions of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Doesn’t saying something like that take the teeth out of some of the teaching of the Church?

If the answer is just…

God saves who He wants and no ones knows who is saved. Then I would agree with that.

 

[lorathon]

Without getting into all of the possible “what-if’s” yes that is correct.

Here again, we have to be careful.
Yes - So long as you are completely convicted in those beliefs you “would possibly be saved”.

I’m going to place a caveat here so you know that I am only stating my understanding of these things. For a fuller understanding I suggest you look at the Catachism.

Peace
James

Not to worry. We are just debating. I am currently reading the catechism front to back. And this is actually where the questions begin to arise. I truelly belive in the Church.

One of the most enlightening things that I have read so far is…

598
In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that "sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured."389 Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself,390 the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus, a responsibility with which they have all too often burdened the Jews alone:

We must regard as guilty all those who continue to relapse into their sins. Since our sins made the Lord Christ suffer the torment of the cross, those who plunge themselves into disorders and crimes crucify the Son of God anew in their hearts (for he is in them) and hold him up to contempt. And it can be seen that our crime in this case is greater in us than in the Jews. As for them, according to the witness of the Apostle, “None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” We, however, profess to know him. And when we deny him by our deeds, we in some way seem to lay violent hands on him.391

Nor did demons crucify him; it is you who have crucified him and crucify him still, when you delight in your vices and sins.392

 

[LilyM]

Because the structure the Catholic Church provides - with its valid sacraments and Holy-Spirit-guided teachings, is the best help to BOTH the fullness of Truth AND salvation. ‘You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free’, remember, truth has its advantages in regard to salvation as well as being worthwhile for its own sake.

Let’s think of two people who want to travel along the same road to the same destination. One (non-Catholic), not knowing that such a thing as a car exists, and not having an accurate map or GPS, or not knowing how to use them if they do have the good luck to possess them. They might still get there in the end but only after having walked the whole way, getting their feet blistered, taking ages, getting regularly lost and having serious trouble finding the right road again when they do.

The other (Catholic), hops into the air-conditioned comfort of their car (driven by a chauffeur who is well-trained by the people who live at the destination, and therefore knows the way very well). They are furthermore equipped with map and GPS for backup as well, so that on the off chance that something goes wrong it’s very easy for them to get back on the right track. They travel more speedily and surely to their destination - as LONG as they stay in the car and aren’t idiotic enough to decide to go it alone, of course.

Someone who knows the teachings of the Catholic church has the option of going either way. Anyone who’s sensible chooses option b.

 

[JRKH]

You know I really do understand that. It is more the question of how can these people even have the chance (other than saying it is up to God) of salvation if they believe in contradictions of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Doesn’t saying something like that take the teeth out of some of the teaching of the Church?

If the answer is just…

God saves who He wants and no ones knows who is saved. Then I would agree with that.

Not at all.
If a person is taught certain beliefs and is convicted, in all good conscience, in those beliefs then they can be considered as justified in those beliefs.
However it is the person who TEACHES that is called to greater account.
Also a person who questions belief feels, something isn’t right and ignores it, that person is called to account as well.

Peace
James

 

[napad]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.
2. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.
3. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?
4. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?
5. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
6. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
7. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

Your right it doesn’t make sense because those outside the church will not be saved ( good thread on the topic here )

If you told an Orthodox Jew that he really isn’t a Jew but a Catholic, he’d think your crazy. So if he is a Catholic (as the Rahnerites say) then were are the real Jews? answer?:hypno: : the bad practicing Jews?:hypno:

Others were right though, non Catholics are not sinning by not going to mass, since they don’t know it is an obligation, just like them not being Catholic isn’t a sin in itself.

They are not condemned because they didn’t join the Church but because of the other sins. A non Catholic person either has original sin or doesn’t have the help of the sacraments to avoid mortal sin. If a person is condemned it will be for his own moral sin not for infidelity for not becoming Catholic if he didn’t know he needed to be.

 

[lorathon]

Well I guess it just boils down to what I always pray.

Thank you God allowing me to be born a Catholic. Thank you for bringing me back into the flock when I strayed.

I can’t figure it out. But in the end it has no bearing on me since I will remain faithful to the Church.

 

[napad]

Well I guess it just boils down to what I always pray.

Thank you God allowing me to be born a Catholic. Thank you for bringing me back into the flock when I strayed.

I can’t figure it out. But in the end it has no bearing on me since I will remain faithful to the Church.

Well that true and it isn"t LOL ( that wha tthe Rahnerites always say about this dogma)

Seriously if there is going to be a mistake here I want to error on the side of caution. Which means you should pray and work to help as many people as you can to become Catholic

 

[expectthebest]

This brings up a question I’ve thought of recently.

The Church says infallibly that if a person dies in the state of mortal sin, that person cannot be saved. This seemingly takes the decision out of God’s hands. On the other hand, the Church also teaches that God can save whomever He wants and we can never know if someone is saved or not regardless of their religious affiliation. In this case, the teaching is that God may take any decision he wants. So, how do these two teaching come together?
Thanks.

 

[expectthebest]

because while there is always the possibility that God saves whomever he pleases, there is no guarantee that those not in communion with the Church, the instrument Christ established to mediate his saving grace on earth, will be saved. God decreed no one is saved outside the Catholic Church. That does not mean one must belong formally to the Church. That means that all who are saved come to God only through Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ operates through the Church he founded. Even those who never hear his name or his gospel, if they are saved, are saved through His merits, by no other means.

Does this also mean that a person can leave the Church if he believes the Church is wrong and still be saved is God so decides?

 

[napad]

This brings up a question I’ve thought of recently.

The Church says infallibly that if a person dies in the state of mortal sin, that person cannot be saved. This seemingly takes the decision out of God’s hands. On the other hand, the Church also teaches that God can save whomever He wants and we can never know if someone is saved or not regardless of their religious affiliation. In this case, the teaching is that God may take any decision he wants. So, how do these two teaching come together?
Thanks.

The Church also says infallibly that a person can’t be saved in any other religion. God is the teacher of the Church so when something is said De Fide ( latin: of the Faith–meaning dogma) i.e. must be believed as being part of divine revelation. God neither deceives or can be deceived.
So if he says there is no salvation outside the Church then he means what he is saying

 

[JRKH]

This brings up a question I’ve thought of recently.

The Church says infallibly that if a person dies in the state of mortal sin, that person cannot be saved. This seemingly takes the decision out of God’s hands.

Not at all. God has said repeatedly that those who willfully disobey Him willnot be saved. Since a Mortal sin by definittion involves a willful act in full knowledge that it is a sin, God only keeps His promise by condemning that person.

On the other hand, the Church also teaches that God can save whomever He wants and we can never know if someone is saved or not regardless of their religious affiliation. In this case, the teaching is that God may take any decision he wants. So, how do these two teaching come together?
Thanks.

There really is no inconsistancy here.
The first condition shows what WILL happen with a mortal sin on ones soul.
The second condition allows for a state in which the person is not fully culpable.

The Catachism explains it better.

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 **"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers **. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Peace
James

 

[expectthebest]

Not at all. God has said repeatedly that those who willfully disobey Him willnot be saved. Since a Mortal sin by definittion involves a willful act in full knowledge that it is a sin, God only keeps His promise by condemning that person.

I understand what you are saying. But, we are all sinners and all of us sin willfully at some point. Even within grave sin there are many different kinds and some are definately more serious than others. God is all just but He is also all merciful. To me, if I understand correctly, it looks like the Church is taking the final decision away from God. Who knows why God may decide to take mercy on a soul or not? Maybe that person died after just committing the sin and didn’t have time to repent. Maybe that person died on the way to confession. Maybe that person lived an over all good life and worked very hard at getting away from a particular grave vice but wasn’t quite successful. Is there no room within the Church to hope that God would have mercy on such an individual?