Why be Catholic?

[Hungry1]

1. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?
2. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?
3. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

I think the question “Why be catholic?” is a good one – because it shows a desire for deeper understanding on the part of the questioner. Maybe this will help.

It is a mistake to think that the obligations of a Catholic that lead to salvation are many and the obligations of non-Catholic Christians are none (or much fewer). Because in actuality, Catholics and non-Catholic Christians are under the SAME primary obligation: a total conversion to God, which comes through the saving power of Christ. To the extent that any person tries to follow God with their whole heart, mind, soul, and strength, the Catholic Church rightly recognizes that they can be saved. But it’s NOT easy.

I used to be an evangelical Protestant. I was then, and am now, a devout Christian. No true evangelical Christian that I have ever known, despite their assertion of “faith alone,” would say that all the Christian ever needs to do is to pray a one-time prayer for salvation. They would tell you, rather, that if a person claims to have “asked Jesus into their heart” but then continued in a life of self-indulgence, selfishness, cruelty, etc. – that that was evidence that they had never “really” been saved. I learned that we should have a daily prayer life, go to church, be “in fellowship” with other Christians, give generously to those in need – in other words, that we should really try to follow Jesus. But we didn’t have the sacraments to help us do that. And in evangelical and fundamentalist circles there can be a kind of legalism that focuses on the externals (piety, success, “victorious” Christian living), leading some to feel obligated to “perform,” to pretend to be a “good Christian”.

In fact, while it may seem that non-Catholic Christians have it easier because their obligations are not so clearly defined (e.g., they don’t “have to” go to Mass), I think it is actually harder, more burdensome, because they are missing so much grace, i.e., the grace of the Sacraments.

I found a depth of freedom when I became a Catholic that I had never experienced before – and believe me, I was not expecting that. I was afraid that becoming Catholic would put me under some kind of bondage – based on things I had heard, like “you have to go to Mass or you’re in mortal sin”. That did not fit with what I knew about true faith, and I didn’t know at that point what the Church truly taught. I entered because I recognized that it is the True Church – but I had some anxieties about all that stuff.

Now I know that the Church does teach that it is the heart that matters, that conversion is never just going through the motions, but bringing your whole self and laying it on the altar of God. The Mass is an exchange – you don’t just “go”, you are supposed to participate, to offer yourself as a sacrifice to God just as Jesus did for us. If you don’t participate in that way, you could say that you haven’t really been to Mass, even if your body was present!

As a Catholic, rather than trying to just “be a good person”, I now know that through the grace of the sacraments and my earnest desire to participate fully in them I can actually be gradually transformed, I can actually become holy with God’s help. That was never a part of my Protestant theology, and I am so glad and relieved to have come home.

 

[lorathon]

In fact, while it may seem that non-Catholic Christians have it easier because their obligations are not so clearly defined (e.g., they don’t “have to” go to Mass), I think it is actually harder, more burdensome, because they are missing so much grace, i.e., the grace of the Sacraments.

I want to thank you for this comment. This has opened a new viewport into this discussion. I had never looked at things this way but now that you have said this I can see the truth there. As another poster stated.

Question: Why be Catholic?

Answer: The Eucharist.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Go to Mass 3 times in a row, then go to Grace Community Church (non denomination) 3 times and you will have your answer. May God be with you friend.

NonCatholic, as a Catholic, it is a privelege to go to Mass. If I went to the church you mention I assume that you believe the “feeling” of being with good people and the “preaching” and “music” are the things that make for worship. For those of us who were not at Calvary at the foot of the cross we have the Mass to bring us there to worship with the true Chist in His presence. We worship with things of the senses because we are human social people and they assist us in human terms the need for unity with the Almighty. We use wine, bread, water, incense, icons, etc because they are sensual things used by sensual people to symbolize our worship of God. We gather together on the day of resurrection to socially share the experience of worship and sacrament that points to the greatness of God in His True Presence on the altar. The difference is that the True Christ is present at our Mass whereas He is spiritually in your church. I for one would always take the True Presence.

mdcpensive1

 

[mdcpensive1]

To NonCatholic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdcpensive1
These are all good replies, but the answer is:

It is God’s will that everyone be in the Catholic Church.

This seems like a quick and dirty blanket statement and I had to think about this, but it is true. Romans 9:19b-20 For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?"…I suppose if your statement had merit, then everyone would be Catholic; but since this is not so, perhaps you might want to rethink, then restate. Christ left a Church to guide us back to His Father at the end of time. Salvation is through the Church. (Council of Trent) Why is it God’s will? It is because He uses the Church as the means of dispensing graces and protecting the truth He gave us. The Holy Spirit continually guides the Church in its understanding of Revelation and is the physical body that at the end of time be presented to the Father for salvation. What do you do with what God says?..Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," … This is speaking of individuals within the group of believers. These teachings of the Church is protected from error as others have stated.

Why be Catholic you ask? Scripture talks about entering through the narrow gate. If we want to have the greatest chance of staying in grace for our salvation then we should be in the Church established by Christ Himself that talks for Him in our time. Other churches may say many good things, but they don’t have the necessary and important things like the priesthood and sacraments and the guarantee that doctrines are the truth. The Church established by Christ is the vehicle to heaven so come along for the ride and don’t take a chance you might miss the boat. Very poetic.

Can I be outside the Church? Yes, but only if you are invincibly ignorant. Why would anybody want to have less than the real thing? There are always exceptions but just because there are, please don’t think then that the Church is not necessary. It give the greatest chance and opportunities for Grace for our salvation…

mdcpensive1

Thank you for letting me explain more of what I might not have made clear. I have said that it is God’s will to be in the Church He established because any other church would be a creation by man that could not be as great as the one Christ made Himself. Your biblical quote of Romans 9:19-20 is St. Paul describing the legitimacy of the Chosen People over other offspring of Abraham through Ishmail, etc. Paul is telling us the correct line of the Chosen People so we will know the correct family the savior will come from. I don’t believe it is telling us what church to go to but I reserve the right to be wrong about this.

Your quote of Romans 8:16 shows how the Spirit is in us or the Grace of Christ in us makes us sons or daughters of Christ. This is what the Council of Trent was getting at. By Baptism we are baptized into the Body of Christ. His Church, the RC Church, is the means of salvation and those who are baptized have this connection to His Church through His Body and the means of salvation.

I hope I have explained it enough to have you understand what I am saying. Others on this forum can do it so much better than I can. It is so wonderful to have conversations with brothers and sisters in Christ. One day we must all pray that we will be in the same Church.

mdcpensive1

 

[Hungry1]

I want to thank you for this comment. This has opened a new viewport into this discussion. I had never looked at things this way but now that you have said this I can see the truth there.QUOTE]

You are most welcome - I appreciate that you asked the question, it helped me think about it and sort through my thoughts on the subject. And I use questions like this with my Catholic nieces and nephews to help them think about their faith.

DB

 

[Hungry1]

I want to thank you for this comment. This has opened a new viewport into this discussion. I had never looked at things this way but now that you have said this I can see the truth there. As another poster stated.

You are most welcome - I appreciate that you asked the question, it helped me think about it and sort through my thoughts on the subject. And I use questions like this with my Catholic nieces and nephews to help them think about their faith.

DB

 

[Detales]

I’m sorry, but I have not read all of the posts on here, so appologize if this post is redundant. Nevertheless, if it is, I add my weight to the following consideration:

Goodness and religion exist on two separate axes of experience. Religion seems to be the most easily taken course to explain, set, and use goodness and morality to any number of ends. One only needs to look at the history of any religion to arrive at this conclusion.

Goodness, however, is universal, and is unversally recognized, generally speaking, in that saving a life, chariatble works, etc., all support life and may lead to salvation.

What constitutes that salvation and by what means is a world wide and age old question, predating Catholicism, I’m sure, in some form or other. So for us, the question may be addressed through the framework of a religion, which will inevitabley lead to disunity (how like God is that?) or through goodness, which like music and the laws of physics transcends religions.

Now we can, therefore, adopt a lens, say Catholicism, and say that “This is the One, True Lens” and thus join the hosts of others who for whatever reason make the same exact claim with exactly the same sincerity, save that in a few cases they would actually die for it. But few if any choose to notice that the lens we choose bends Light, that Light being the Light of God, equal to all goodness. In fact, I think that “God” actualy means “good” in many languages.

What I am proposing is that all us Earthians are taken up with the installation by habit and agreement of various programs and sub routines while we ignore our actual basic soul operating system. In other words, as you look at this screen, you see an astonishingly complex manifestation of the basic operating system of your computer. You are looking through Explorer, Netscape, Firefox, or whatever browser. But you are looking at that program’s modification, use, and interpretation of your computer’s basic operating system.

In other words, when we have religious arguments, it is almost inevitably, e.g., Explorer vs. Firefox, and we very largely ignore the programs that look at our experience as functions of the basic operating system. That would be highly inconvenient, because it would mean that we would all have to delve into it in other terms than what we are habitually using as our religious browser, which is in our private world “The one True Browser.” The God of Love IS before Catholicism, Islam, or anything else, and IS, after all those are gone. Why don’t we all take the red pill and look at our DOS (Divine Operating System)?

 

[davidv]

I’m sorry, but I have not read all of the posts on here, so appologize if this post is redundant. Nevertheless, if it is, I add my weight to the following consideration:

Goodness and religion exist on two separate axes of experience. Religion seems to be the most easily taken course to explain, set, and use goodness and morality to any number of ends. One only needs to look at the history of any religion to arrive at this conclusion.

Goodness, however, is universal, and is unversally recognized, generally speaking, in that saving a life, chariatble works, etc., all support life and may lead to salvation.

What constitutes that salvation and by what means is a world wide and age old question, predating Catholicism, I’m sure, in some form or other. So for us, the question may be addressed through the framework of a religion, which will inevitabley lead to disunity (how like God is that?) or through goodness, which like music and the laws of physics transcends religions.

Now we can, therefore, adopt a lens, say Catholicism, and say that “This is the One, True Lens” and thus join the hosts of others who for whatever reason make the same exact claim with exactly the same sincerity, save that in a few cases they would actually die for it. But few if any choose to notice that the lens we choose bends Light, that Light being the Light of God, equal to all goodness. In fact, I think that “God” actualy means “good” in many languages.

What I am proposing is that all us Earthians are taken up with the installation by habit and agreement of various programs and sub routines while we ignore our actual basic soul operating system. In other words, as you look at this screen, you see an astonishingly complex manifestation of the basic operating system of your computer. You are looking through Explorer, Netscape, Firefox, or whatever browser. But you are looking at that program’s modification, use, and interpretation of your computer’s basic operating system.

In other words, when we have religious arguments, it is almost inevitably, e.g., Explorer vs. Firefox, and we very largely ignore the programs that look at our experience as functions of the basic operating system. That would be highly inconvenient, because it would mean that we would all have to delve into it in other terms than what we are habitually using as our religious browser, which is in our private world “The one True Browser.” The God of Love IS before Catholicism, Islam, or anything else, and IS, after all those are gone. Why don’t we all take the red pill and look at our DOS (Divine Operating System)?

Why do you think that Catholism ignors the “OS”?

This introductiory statement from the Catechism of the Catholic Church appears to me to be in direct opposition to that thinking.

God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

Every teaching, every liturgical ritual, every pious practice of the Church is designed to carry out this “plan of sheer goodness”.

 

[mdcpensive1]

Detales, your post reads like a book on eastern thought with an attempt at combining it with philosophy.

Goodness and religion are not axes of experience. They exist whether we have experiences of them or not. I think you are starting with a false premise which gives a false conclusion.

I would reboot your operating system, get rid of your virtual machines, clear your ram, get a good spam filter and anti-virus, get a fast front side bus and a big hard drive to hold the vast knowledge that is available to all of us concerning the Ultimate Goodness.

mdcpensive1

 

[JKing]

I think the question “Why be catholic?” is a good one – because it shows a desire for deeper understanding on the part of the questioner. Maybe this will help.

It is a mistake to think that the obligations of a Catholic that lead to salvation are many and the obligations of non-Catholic Christians are none (or much fewer). Because in actuality, Catholics and non-Catholic Christians are under the SAME primary obligation: a total conversion to God, which comes through the saving power of Christ. To the extent that any person tries to follow God with their whole heart, mind, soul, and strength, the Catholic Church rightly recognizes that they can be saved. But it’s NOT easy.

I used to be an evangelical Protestant. I was then, and am now, a devout Christian. No true evangelical Christian that I have ever known, despite their assertion of “faith alone,” would say that all the Christian ever needs to do is to pray a one-time prayer for salvation. They would tell you, rather, that if a person claims to have “asked Jesus into their heart” but then continued in a life of self-indulgence, selfishness, cruelty, etc. – that that was evidence that they had never “really” been saved. I learned that we should have a daily prayer life, go to church, be “in fellowship” with other Christians, give generously to those in need – in other words, that we should really try to follow Jesus. But we didn’t have the sacraments to help us do that. And in evangelical and fundamentalist circles there can be a kind of legalism that focuses on the externals (piety, success, “victorious” Christian living), leading some to feel obligated to “perform,” to pretend to be a “good Christian”.

In fact, while it may seem that non-Catholic Christians have it easier because their obligations are not so clearly defined (e.g., they don’t “have to” go to Mass), I think it is actually harder, more burdensome, because they are missing so much grace, i.e., the grace of the Sacraments.

I found a depth of freedom when I became a Catholic that I had never experienced before – and believe me, I was not expecting that. I was afraid that becoming Catholic would put me under some kind of bondage – based on things I had heard, like “you have to go to Mass or you’re in mortal sin”. That did not fit with what I knew about true faith, and I didn’t know at that point what the Church truly taught. I entered because I recognized that it is the True Church – but I had some anxieties about all that stuff.

Now I know that the Church does teach that it is the heart that matters, that conversion is never just going through the motions, but bringing your whole self and laying it on the altar of God. The Mass is an exchange – you don’t just “go”, you are supposed to participate, to offer yourself as a sacrifice to God just as Jesus did for us. If you don’t participate in that way, you could say that you haven’t really been to Mass, even if your body was present!

As a Catholic, rather than trying to just “be a good person”, I now know that through the grace of the sacraments and my earnest desire to participate fully in them I can actually be gradually transformed, I can actually become holy with God’s help. That was never a part of my Protestant theology, and I am so glad and relieved to have come home.

Beautiful!!

 

[Junebug999]

I desire to be Catholic (fully – I’m on the home stretch), because it is the fullness of truth – all truth that I find in the CC. All the pieces of the puzzle fits. I believe it is God’s will in my life for me to be Catholic and to participate fully in the CC and its teachings == hook, line and sinker. When you love something you can hardly wait to participate in it. Going to Mass (and any other rules) becomes a privilege instead of an obligation.

 

[JKing]

I think you’ve gotten your answer piecemeal in all the preceding posts, but I think a comprehensive answer to your question is in order.

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

For the sake of this question lets just limit our definition of “Church” to the Holy Catholic Church–that is all those loyal to Rome.

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.

Not necessarily. For a sin to be mortal three conditions are necessary. 1. Grave matter. 2. Knowledge. 3. Consent of the will. Missing Mass is definitely grave matter. But to be a mortal sin the person must know that it is gravely sinful to miss Mass and the person must willingly miss it anyway.

1. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.

If you die with unconfessed Mortal Sin on your soul you will indeed go to hell. The ordinary way to remove mortal sin is through the sacrament of confession however, perfect contrition also removes mortal sin. That means that if you are sorry for the sin not because you fear hell but because you dread offending God by your sin and you sincerely intend never to commit that sin again, then you are forgiven. The Church has always taught this. But we also have to go to confession as soon as possible after we make this act of perfect contrition. So if I’ve sinned and I’m about to die and I call to mind my sin and sincerely apologize for it–because I love God and regret having offended Him, then God forgives me and that sin is not held against me.

1. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?

See the definition of Mortal Sin above. Unless they know they are supposed to go and they refuse to go anyway, no, they are not in Mortal Sin. Also, I’m not sure the obligation extends to those outside the jurisdiction of the Church anyway. I don’t think when converts come into the Church they have to confess not having gone to Mass for their whole lives.

1. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?

Nope. No mortal sin.

1. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?

Others have answered this quite well. If you were baptized and catechized thorugh your childhood, to the extent that you know of the obligations of the faith, you are responsible to follow them. Not doing so would be a Mortal Sin. However, people leave the Church all the time, but I don’t think most of them really understand the obligation. They buy the modern idea that truth is what I think it is, and if I choose to, I can follow whatever rules I think are best. (See Detales’ post, above) That might mean serial polygamy or gay lifestyle or unethical business practices or…you name it. As my wife says all the time, If people really knew what (–WHO!) we have in our tabernacles, they’d be busting down the doors to get in the Church. The problem is ignorance. That’s our fault. (sorry, tangent)

So, what is the bare minimum that you need? You need to follow your conscience. Now, if you’ve never been exposed, nor had the opportunity to be exposed to God’s revelation, then your conscience as it is naturally formed is your rule. (Invincible Ignorance) The more you know about God’s revelation to Man, the more closely your conscience will be alligned with truth. We are very fortunate to have so much of God’s Will revealed to us. Especially that we live in the age of the Church.

1. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?

Because we are Catholic and we know it is required, we are bound by our conscience–which is properly formed–to go to Mass.

1. Why can’t I just say a prayer and my sins will be forgiven?

As explained above. You can say an Act of Contrition and as long as you have Perfect Contrition your sins–even mortal sins–are forgiven. But you are still under the Church’s requirement to confess your mortal sins at the earliest opportunity. If death occurs between the time when your sin is forgiven and the time that you make it to confession, it will not be held against you as long as you intended to go. God knows your heart. This is the bottom line in all cases anyway. Many there are who go to confession without contrition or a firm purpose of amendment and are therefore still in their sins and likewise, many there are who do not make it to confession but have their sins forgiven through perfect contrition. Either way, we are obliged to go to confession because we need it. We need to hear the priest say “I absolve you”. We need to get his help and direction. We need to reconcile with the Church. We need to do penance. These are all given to us for our sake, not God’s.

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

I hope I’ve helped a little so that now it adds up. A thousand difficulties does not one doubt make. You’ve approached this question with exactly the right attitude. “I don’t understand. I believe, but if I can understand better, I would like to. I will submit my will to God’s Will whether I like the answers I get or not.” Bravo.

Jeff

St. Max,
Pray for us.

 

[mdcpensive1]

JKing, I hope I get to read more posts by you. You have a very good style of explaining things to be easily understood. That is a gift and a grace.

mdcpensive1

 

[Detales]

Davidv, I clearly did not say that the Catholic Church ignores the OS. I said that it is one of the lenses used in viewing it. That makes the quote from the Catechism in your quote part of the lens. There is a proceedural error here of mistaking the view through the lens equal to the Light itself.

 

[1holycatholic]

I desire to be Catholic (fully – I’m on the home stretch), because it is the fullness of truth – all truth that I find in the CC. All the pieces of the puzzle fits. I believe it is God’s will in my life for me to be Catholic and to participate fully in the CC and its teachings == hook, line and sinker. When you love something you can hardly wait to participate in it. Going to Mass (and any other rules) becomes a privilege instead of an obligation.

 

[taylor007]

If there is salvation outside of the Church, why be Catholic?

Maybe my knowledge of my own Catholic faith is in error but a few points just don’t add up. I have heard the argument that the “Church” is all that are baptized and such other things. But that still doesn’t add up to the statements below.

Dude, just saw this thread.I posted a similar thread in the philosophy forum (need for church and prayer) a couple of days ago .I got some ideas.Dunno if they are correct but these are my convictions :-

1. If I do not go to Mass on Sunday I am in a state of Mortal Sin.

I think it also depends on the kind of life you lead.If you are a good guy, doing all good stuff and humble to the core,but couldn’t attend a Sunday mass due to no deliberate fault of his own ,I don’t think he will be judged harshly.But if I do that with the intention of defecting the church,I could be in trouble for that.Of course,i am talking about catholics.

1. If I die prior to confession I believe that I will go to hell.

I dont think making a formal confession without really having any sincere repentance would save the criminal from hell.
But if the guy repents over his doings and begs for His mercy with 90% sincerity ,I believe he would be saved.But making an honest confession would be definitely the better option.

1. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to Mass on Sunday. Aren’t they in a state of Mortal Sin?

Again ,I don’t think so.If u are ignorant about what you should really be doing,it doesn’t count.Otherwise all the tribal dudes who havent heard the gospel but leads a moral life by their standards would go to hell. I think if you do what your conscience urges you to do,you will be pretty much safe.ultimately,I believe it comes down to doing what your conscience asks you to.It is also about rightly executing your free will.

1. I do not know of any people “outside” the Church that go to confession. Aren’t they then going to hell for having the Mortal Sin on their soul?

No.They would come under the ignorant lot and all they need is sincere repentance.

1. I have heard the argument that the Church is the “fullness” of Christianity. But if you don’t need the “fullness” to get salvation then what do you need?

I don’t know.it is a question beyond my current knowledge.

1. Why do I have to go to Mass on Sunday?

1. Because you are a catholic and you should trust and obey the church’s teachings.
2. because its the way to receive a lot of grace(sacramental) which helps you to resist temptations and sins.
3. you are taking part in the last supper as Jesus asked you to.

I am not falling away from my faith. I love my faith. I just can’t wrap my mind around why I need to be Catholic if I don’t need to be? Hope that makes sense. It just doesnt add up.

 

[Detales]

Here is a thought: It applies not only to Catholicism, but to any religion or system, be it political, scholarly, or whatever. Its chief defect is that it requires dispasssion and trust, and it is also a fantasy as it will never happen. It is therefor offered as a mind stretcher. It is in the form
“**Why be X?” **and is a query applicable to becoming part of any voluntary group. A basic assumption in this is that such a search would include choosing a religion. In our case as Catholics, it would require that we have utter confidence that in any circumstance a reasoning human being with a modicum of faith would choose our Church.

What I have noticed about humans is that they tend to retain as their world view many factors implicit in their upbringing, including grammar, family values, early home and school education, events of significant emotional impact, etc, etc.

So what if there was a way, instead of bringing up children in a particular religious practice, and risking the obvious danger of having a habitually pious believer, we actually taught our children to think, reason, research, etc, concerning all availble information on any faith, including attendance at services, etc. That means that children of Muslims, Mormons, Cargo Cultists, Pocomaniacs, Shintoists, Buddhists, etc. etc., would all get to taste the veracity of Catholicism. It also means that the children of Catholics would be exposed to heathen practices and scholarly critiques of all faiths.

In all this it is assumed that virtue, taught in a form not attributable to a system of faith, is part of the household. In other words, parents would keep their religion to themselves, and practice only good in public and before their children, that good being abstracted from any doctrinal attachments or evaluations. This ought to be easy, because no one dying of thirst, e.g., when recieving a glass of water, asks if it is being handed to them by a person of the faith or philosophy they themselves approve of. The giving of water speaks for itself.

Unfortunately, that kind of evaluative system would mean thinking. I say unfortunately, because we have the declaration of Adolph Hitler who said “It is great luck for leaders that men don’t think.” We know what happened under his aegis. Of course, he wasn’t politically correct in not including women, who obviously don’t think as much as men don’t think. In any case, we would have a public that thinks.

This would be horrifying for scammers, bankers, insurance companies, employers, etc, who all depend to some extent on the ignorance and gullibility of the public. I mean, for instance, if you are buying a house, by the time you have paid for it you have bought the bank two or three houses so you can live in one. And they have added no value to your house except as a set-up, as we now see. And they can take “your” house away from you even after you have paid twice its sticker price, even if you can’t come up with just the last payment. What a deal! (for bankers.) But that is exactly what we let people do to us because we habitually don’t think.

That of course is a secular example, but in terms of our own faith, that matter is even more serious, as we claim that spiritual consequences are forever. So we need to do something if we are evangelical in our beliefs and love our neighbor. To me, that means that we have to have the strength of conviction that would allow us to step back from the board, erase it, and come back with the same conclusion without our Catholic filters after having examined ALL of the information available about faiths and beliefs on a global basis, something we have not until now been able to do.

We could make a global registry of philosophical/religious ideas, put them into the hands of competent teachers, expose all our children to them, and easily expect that given that, all children will thenceforth be Catholic, as they have seen, compared, and reasoned clealy about all of the avialble material. This would form a cadre of great proportions of believers who adhere by conviction as distinct from habit, as so many now seem to. We could then dispense with the need for such a forum as this, as within a couple of generations all children would by their own rational choice grow up in the Catholic faith. Since we are of the One True Church, there is no fear that given adequate information and opportunity for decision, our faith would attract children in droves.

What a victory that would be.

Bindar Doondat

 

[mdcpensive1]

Detales, the reason I am Catholic beyond knowing that is what God has always wanted for me is that of faith. My parents were the ones responsible for my baptism and initial trust into the faith. It has been through the gifts of God that my strength has been bolstered when at times I was about to fail.

I cannot see your arguments because they cannot support faith which is a gift from God. Faith or God, or for that matter, truth cannot be broken down and calculated using equations, databases, calculus, higher level math, etc. There is no magic formula to prove that someone should be in a particlar place and believe a particular set of paradisms. God has left us signs along the way and an invitation to come forward. It is up to us to see with our heart and listen and learn. Socratic modeling and Pathagorean mathamatics can never be proofs because the One is so much higher than our puny brains can understand. Our attempts to learn and understand are just small parts of understanding the truth of creation, not the end in themselves.

mdcpensive1

 

[JKing]

Here is a thought: It applies not only to Catholicism, but to any religion or system…Bindar Doondat

This is the old “We won’t impose our religion on our son. We’ll let Junior decide what religion he wants to be when he grows up.” The assumption is that if he makes a choice he will have all the data. That is impossible–even in the ideal scenario you lay out in your thoughtful post.

To refute this argument, substitute “food” or “exercise” or “dentist visits” or “running with scissors” for “religion”. Let Junior decide for himself what he wants? Ridiculous. Most of the time that which is best for us is wanted least, but the benefits/delayed gratification far outweigh the immediate hardships.

If all religions were the same, I could think of a bunch that are easier to live with than Catholicism. But God’s revelation confirmed by human experience over the past 2,000 years prove to me that despite the sacrifices we make to be good Catholics, it is well worth it. Is this the gift of faith? Is this a logical decision arrived at objectively? Is this a product of my upbringing? Probably all of the above.

Someone said (I’m too lazy to try to find it–maybe Chesterton) “Catholicism is the toughest religion to live with but the easiest to die with.”

St. Max,
Pray for us

Jeff

 

[mdcpensive1]

This is the old “We won’t impose our religion on our son. We’ll let Junior decide what religion he wants to be when he grows up.” The assumption is that if he makes a choice he will have all the data. That is impossible–even in the ideal scenario you lay out in your thoughtful post.

To refute this argument, substitute “food” or “exercise” or “dentist visits” or “running with scissors” for “religion”. Let Junior decide for himself what he wants? Ridiculous. Most of the time that which is best for us is wanted least, but the benefits/delayed gratification far outweigh the immediate hardships.

If all religions were the same, I could think of a bunch that are easier to live with than Catholicism. But God’s revelation confirmed by human experience over the past 2,000 years prove to me that despite the sacrifices we make to be good Catholics, it is well worth it. Is this the gift of faith? Is this a logical decision arrived at objectively? Is this a product of my upbringing? Probably all of the above.