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expectthebest
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I’m sure that Detales can confirm this, but I think you have missed the point of his post. I think he is saying that since the Catholic Faith is the one true Faith, and since the Church teaches that anyone versed in the Faith will know this, that it would logically follow that all people would come to the conclusion that it is the one true Faith if they were to have all the information. At that time, they would take the decision to follow the Faith or to reject it. But these people would know for certain what they were rejecting, in which case there would be no reason for other religions to exist. Either you choose to follow the one true Faith or not. For anyone who has all the information would know that there is no other legitiment faith. So, eventually, all people would either follow the one true Faith or choose to reject God and follow no faith in the knowledge that no other Faith exists.This is the old “We won’t impose our religion on our son. We’ll let Junior decide what religion he wants to be when he grows up.” The assumption is that if he makes a choice he will have all the data. That is impossible–even in the ideal scenario you lay out in your thoughtful post.
To refute this argument, substitute “food” or “exercise” or “dentist visits” or “running with scissors” for “religion”. Let Junior decide for himself what he wants? Ridiculous. Most of the time that which is best for us is wanted least, but the benefits/delayed gratification far outweigh the immediate hardships.
If all religions were the same, I could think of a bunch that are easier to live with than Catholicism. But God’s revelation confirmed by human experience over the past 2,000 years prove to me that despite the sacrifices we make to be good Catholics, it is well worth it. Is this the gift of faith? Is this a logical decision arrived at objectively? Is this a product of my upbringing? Probably all of the above.
Someone said (I’m too lazy to try to find it–maybe Chesterton) “Catholicism is the toughest religion to live with but the easiest to die with.”
St. Max,
Pray for us
Jeff
D
Detales
Guest
Very good, and thanks, Expectthebest. Very much in the direction I intended.
J
JKing
Guest
Granted. As a purely academic exercise, OK. But it is fantasy. There is no way to “remove the lenses”. We all perceive the truth from the base of our past experience. My point is that those who try to implement some version of this in real life put themselves (or worse, their children) in grave danger.I’m sure that Detales can confirm this, but I think you have missed the point of his post. I think he is saying that since the Catholic Faith is the one true Faith, and since the Church teaches that anyone versed in the Faith will know this, that it would logically follow that all people would come to the conclusion that it is the one true Faith if they were to have all the information. At that time, they would take the decision to follow the Faith or to reject it. But these people would know for certain what they were rejecting, in which case there would be no reason for other religions to exist. Either you choose to follow the one true Faith or not. For anyone who has all the information would know that there is no other legitiment faith. So, eventually, all people would either follow the one true Faith or choose to reject God and follow no faith in the knowledge that no other Faith exists.
Have you ever talked to a committed SDA or JW? There is no getting through. Their lenses are so warped that they may never come to know the truth. Maybe that’s the way they see committed Catholics.
I believe we are to, as the Bible says, raise up our children in the faith. Pass the gifts we’ve received on to the next generation. That’s how the Church survives. Each generation raises up the next generation to preserve the truth that is passed onto them. It’s not just an academic exercise. It’s not an experiment to see if Junior comes to the right decision if given all the objective information. We’re talking about people’s eternal destiny.
Very interesting, though. I need to think some more about this.
St. Max
Pray for us.
Jeff
D
Detales
Guest
Yes, JKing, by gumbo, I have talked not to, but with committed SDA and JW. Right or wrong, they sound blessed much like commited Catholics, with other words plugged in. The feeling is the same. And of course they are perfectly emphatic and vehement when they say “I believe we are to, as the Bible says, raise up our children in the faith. Pass the gifts we’ve received on to the next generation. That’s how the Church survives. Each generation raises up the next generation to preserve the truth that is passed onto them. It’s not just an academic exercise. It’s not an experiment to see if Junior comes to the right decision if given all the objective information. We’re talking about people’s eternal destiny.”
All I am saying, therefore, is that it would be useful to go to some more fundamental ground when talking* with *non-Catholics.
All I am saying, therefore, is that it would be useful to go to some more fundamental ground when talking* with *non-Catholics.
E
expectthebest
Guest
It does rais the following question though: Can someone legitimally be versed in the RC Faith and come to the whole hearted conclusion that it is not the true Faith? And as such, will God judge this person’s heart in that light?Granted. As a purely academic exercise, OK. But it is fantasy. There is no way to “remove the lenses”. We all perceive the truth from the base of our past experience. My point is that those who try to implement some version of this in real life put themselves (or worse, their children) in grave danger.
Have you ever talked to a committed SDA or JW? There is no getting through. Their lenses are so warped that they may never come to know the truth. Maybe that’s the way they see committed Catholics.
I believe we are to, as the Bible says, raise up our children in the faith. Pass the gifts we’ve received on to the next generation. That’s how the Church survives. Each generation raises up the next generation to preserve the truth that is passed onto them. It’s not just an academic exercise. It’s not an experiment to see if Junior comes to the right decision if given all the objective information. We’re talking about people’s eternal destiny.
Very interesting, though. I need to think some more about this.
St. Max
Pray for us.
Jeff
D
Detales
Guest
I, for myself, believe that the position stated here:
“It does rais the following question though: Can someone legitimally be versed in the RC Faith and come to the whole hearted conclusion that it is not the true Faith? And as such, will God judge this person’s heart in that light?”
is an incomplete framing of all the paramaters of the question. Remember, it takes eleven dimensions even to describe the physical universe, let alone the one that describes it. In other words, I wonder if it is in any way an ether/or question. I tend to think God is bigger than that. I would also suspect that, at least in the “particular judgement,” if the experiences of people who have had NDEs is an accurate indication, it is we who dispassionately judge our own lives according to the Divine Light.
I can also verify for JKing from personal experience, that there is indeed a way to remove filters. Several ways, actually, ranging from the highly unpleasant to the extatic. The problem is, that since the removal is such an extra-intellectual experience, that when the filters are replaced, there can be a very strong tendency to habitually interpret the removal from the previous mental framework. It appears to have largely to do with whether the indivdual has any dispassionate curiosity about their own nature or not. In other words they could ask “What was that?!” or they could say “That was (insert preconceived notion.)” It really is very much like the red or the blue pill.
“It does rais the following question though: Can someone legitimally be versed in the RC Faith and come to the whole hearted conclusion that it is not the true Faith? And as such, will God judge this person’s heart in that light?”
is an incomplete framing of all the paramaters of the question. Remember, it takes eleven dimensions even to describe the physical universe, let alone the one that describes it. In other words, I wonder if it is in any way an ether/or question. I tend to think God is bigger than that. I would also suspect that, at least in the “particular judgement,” if the experiences of people who have had NDEs is an accurate indication, it is we who dispassionately judge our own lives according to the Divine Light.
I can also verify for JKing from personal experience, that there is indeed a way to remove filters. Several ways, actually, ranging from the highly unpleasant to the extatic. The problem is, that since the removal is such an extra-intellectual experience, that when the filters are replaced, there can be a very strong tendency to habitually interpret the removal from the previous mental framework. It appears to have largely to do with whether the indivdual has any dispassionate curiosity about their own nature or not. In other words they could ask “What was that?!” or they could say “That was (insert preconceived notion.)” It really is very much like the red or the blue pill.
E
expectthebest
Guest
Interesting. Please elaborate.is an incomplete framing of all the paramaters of the question. Remember, it takes eleven dimensions even to describe the physical universe, let alone the one that describes it. In other words, I wonder if it is in any way an ether/or question. I tend to think God is bigger than that. I would also suspect that, at least in the “particular judgement,” if the experiences of people who have had NDEs is an accurate indication, it is we who dispassionately judge our own lives according to the Divine Light.
D
Detales
Guest
OK, Expectthebest, here’s the thing. I base a lot of my interpretations on an experience that forced me to acknowlledge a form of awareness that is consistent with states described and explained clearly in non-Catholic systems. I have also had what, for lack of better explanation, might be called “religious” experiences. None but one of these were chemically induced, nor do I have any measurable psychic disorder. At that time my persistent questioning of every level of cleric I could personally contact, plus research I had done on my own in Catholic literature, was found to be inadequate and dissatisfactory in addressing my perceptions. In fact, it was clear from such that there was very little even in the direction of my inquiry available in my faith, even in the one catagory that seemed to come closest. I had to “go outside.”
Now we know from conversations of any ordinary sort that someone understands you if they are able to repeat back to you what you said, but in their own words from their own experience. In time I met someone like that who could not only repeat back to me, but could reslolve many of the conflicts I had within my faith and my experience. I asked if I could study with him, and was associated with him over nearly 30 years.
In that time I came to understand that his titles, Doctor and Mentor, were not casual in any sense. He was highly respected by the Jesuit community nearby, having led them through a theological impasse. He was esteemed and edified by many Catholic clergy and clergy of many faiths as a resolver of thorny issues. Indeed, Mother Theresea had visited him several times, which makes an interesting chapter in his biography by itself. Teachers, yogis, mystics, etc from the East revered him and some even called him “Living Vedanta.”
I also came to understand that his clarity of perception of religious matters was from a position that was antecedent to bodies of theological thought. What was fascinating was that though many disciplins claimed that he must have had a teacher in their line, he actually had had no such thing. He even passed, once, obscure tests which according to the prophecy of that order made him the rightful heir of that leadership. Go figure.
Anyway, as a student of this man, I began to see a much wider interpretation of scripture and dogma, one that transcended literalism without excluding historicity. I began to see a chordal structure in faith that had been hidden to me. Whereas I had before heard only a dull sound, I now heard a rich harmony. Whereas I saw only the surface confusion of the Magic Picture,* I now saw the hidden image in its clarity. I also finally had an unshakeable internal basis for morality.
All of this required, through much effort, the going beyond my simple yes/no, either/or, truth/lie, and yes, even devil/God perceptions. Yet none of that was destroyed. It remained intact. What I did come to see was a multi dimensional Universe of exquisit creation and infinite depth that no longer contradicted itself. My Love of and devotion to God skyrocketed. I had even my Catholicism, but on a far grander scale and magnitude than I could ever have managed from just my catechism.
Beyond that, there is not much that I can say, except that there are more hidden treasures in the Scriptures than one could imagine. But they are not what one might superficially believe them to be. And again, I quote Nisargadatta: “The search for Reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings, for it destroys the world in which you live.” That is true. Yet what is gained is a far larger, richer, profound and Loving Universe than can be described in words. Again, a choice between the red and the blue pill. Even those colors are significant, LOL!
For this discovery and my attempts to share crumbs of it, I have been called everything from heretic to blasphemer. That only makes me a mirror for those who call names. As for those whom I can actally have a conversation with, we only have the adventure of discovery in Love. To me, that means that there are, within and without the Church. actual Catholics. Of course, I fully advocate being One!
Bindar Doondat
*Magic Picture: a computer generated image that superficialy looks chaotic or flat, but which when viewed with a different focal point before or behind the image plane, pops it into a percievable image that is three dimensional.~ In other words, you have to be perceptually outside the picture to view it correctly and have its fullness. hint hint.
Now we know from conversations of any ordinary sort that someone understands you if they are able to repeat back to you what you said, but in their own words from their own experience. In time I met someone like that who could not only repeat back to me, but could reslolve many of the conflicts I had within my faith and my experience. I asked if I could study with him, and was associated with him over nearly 30 years.
In that time I came to understand that his titles, Doctor and Mentor, were not casual in any sense. He was highly respected by the Jesuit community nearby, having led them through a theological impasse. He was esteemed and edified by many Catholic clergy and clergy of many faiths as a resolver of thorny issues. Indeed, Mother Theresea had visited him several times, which makes an interesting chapter in his biography by itself. Teachers, yogis, mystics, etc from the East revered him and some even called him “Living Vedanta.”
I also came to understand that his clarity of perception of religious matters was from a position that was antecedent to bodies of theological thought. What was fascinating was that though many disciplins claimed that he must have had a teacher in their line, he actually had had no such thing. He even passed, once, obscure tests which according to the prophecy of that order made him the rightful heir of that leadership. Go figure.
Anyway, as a student of this man, I began to see a much wider interpretation of scripture and dogma, one that transcended literalism without excluding historicity. I began to see a chordal structure in faith that had been hidden to me. Whereas I had before heard only a dull sound, I now heard a rich harmony. Whereas I saw only the surface confusion of the Magic Picture,* I now saw the hidden image in its clarity. I also finally had an unshakeable internal basis for morality.
All of this required, through much effort, the going beyond my simple yes/no, either/or, truth/lie, and yes, even devil/God perceptions. Yet none of that was destroyed. It remained intact. What I did come to see was a multi dimensional Universe of exquisit creation and infinite depth that no longer contradicted itself. My Love of and devotion to God skyrocketed. I had even my Catholicism, but on a far grander scale and magnitude than I could ever have managed from just my catechism.
Beyond that, there is not much that I can say, except that there are more hidden treasures in the Scriptures than one could imagine. But they are not what one might superficially believe them to be. And again, I quote Nisargadatta: “The search for Reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings, for it destroys the world in which you live.” That is true. Yet what is gained is a far larger, richer, profound and Loving Universe than can be described in words. Again, a choice between the red and the blue pill. Even those colors are significant, LOL!
For this discovery and my attempts to share crumbs of it, I have been called everything from heretic to blasphemer. That only makes me a mirror for those who call names. As for those whom I can actally have a conversation with, we only have the adventure of discovery in Love. To me, that means that there are, within and without the Church. actual Catholics. Of course, I fully advocate being One!
Bindar Doondat
*Magic Picture: a computer generated image that superficialy looks chaotic or flat, but which when viewed with a different focal point before or behind the image plane, pops it into a percievable image that is three dimensional.~ In other words, you have to be perceptually outside the picture to view it correctly and have its fullness. hint hint.
J
JKing
Guest
Detales,
I’m not trying to be flip or disrespectful in any way, but I need to ask a question. Are there any canonized saints that talk this way?
I admit my exposure to the mystics is limited, but I have never heard or read anything like this before. When I first heard about Padre Pio’s supernatural gifts, (bilocation, reading souls, stigmata) I was skeptical, but when he was canonized, I decided to read more and suspended my hasty judgement. So if you (and/or your mentor) are following in the footsteps of one or more canonized saints, I’d love to hear about it.
I’m not trying to be flip or disrespectful in any way, but I need to ask a question. Are there any canonized saints that talk this way?
I admit my exposure to the mystics is limited, but I have never heard or read anything like this before. When I first heard about Padre Pio’s supernatural gifts, (bilocation, reading souls, stigmata) I was skeptical, but when he was canonized, I decided to read more and suspended my hasty judgement. So if you (and/or your mentor) are following in the footsteps of one or more canonized saints, I’d love to hear about it.
D
Detales
Guest
I have never met any canonized saints to know how they would talk. I used to read tons of Lives of the Saints, etc, but that was when I still had to run away from velociraptors and preodactyles, if you know what I mean. So I don’t know how to answer your question.
I do know that when he was in Italy and Europe that the keepers of different Catholic shrines spontaneously invited and took him to see things that are not ordinarily seen by the public. One openly wept when he left, another wouldn’t let go his hand all day. I wasn’t there for that, but I saw photos and videos, and listened to those who were with him. The similar thing happened at secular institutions, like Versailles, etc.
I have no explanation for him other than results. I am happy with that, and feel no need to establish legitimacy by association or lineage in any way. I only know that he was a rare man, and he opened people’s hearts wherever he went. In the close to thiry years of my knowing him before he passed, not once did I see him do other than walk his talk.
I do know that when he was in Italy and Europe that the keepers of different Catholic shrines spontaneously invited and took him to see things that are not ordinarily seen by the public. One openly wept when he left, another wouldn’t let go his hand all day. I wasn’t there for that, but I saw photos and videos, and listened to those who were with him. The similar thing happened at secular institutions, like Versailles, etc.
I have no explanation for him other than results. I am happy with that, and feel no need to establish legitimacy by association or lineage in any way. I only know that he was a rare man, and he opened people’s hearts wherever he went. In the close to thiry years of my knowing him before he passed, not once did I see him do other than walk his talk.
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