Why be good?

[Socrates4Jesus]

The point is, these are both responses, freely-made, to God’s grace. Just as are works. Why should Response 1 and Response 2 be necessary for salvation, but not Response 3. Assuming, of course, that all 3 responses are actually possible, which lets out the thief on the cross, but not 99.999% of all Christians (even your paralyzed man can do plenty of good works for the Lord). …

Perhaps i’m misunderstanding the nature of repentance and faith and good works. Let me try to explain it as clearly as i can and then you can explain how my definitions are inaccurate.

Repentance is not doing anything good, it is admitting i’m not good and need to change and need God’s forgiveness. This is why i believe it is different from a good work, which is doing something good.

Saving faith is not doing something good, it is trusting in the good that Jesus did for me to save me by his undeserved sacrifice on the cross.

Good works are doing something good (by avoiding sin or obeying God).

How would you define repentance and faith and good works.

How would you define repentance and faith and good works.

 

[ricko]

Edit previous post. Can get the program to show correctly. Should be F over W = S

F=S
W

 

[VociMike]

Perhaps i’m misunderstanding the nature of repentance and faith and good works. Let me try to explain it as clearly as i can and then you can explain how my definitions are inaccurate.

Repentance is not doing anything good, it is admitting i’m not good and need to change and need God’s forgiveness. This is why i believe it is different from a good work, which is doing something good.

Saving faith is not doing something good, it is trusting in the good that Jesus did for me to save me by his undeserved sacrifice on the cross.

Good works are doing something good (by avoiding sin or obeying God).

How would you define repentance and faith and good works.

It doesn’t even matter how they are defined. All that matters is whether they are all acts (mental, physical, spiritual, psychological - doesn’t matter) that require human volition. Does having faith require human volition, or is it forced on us by God? Does having repentence require human volition, or is it forced on us by God?

Once you acknowledge that to be saved we must do something of our own volition, then the imagined difference between faith and repentence on the one hand, and works on the other hand, disappears. The fact is, even though salvation is a gift, we must do something of our own volition to receive and keep the gift.

Besides traditional Christianity (which is right), only Calvinism (which is wrong) avoids this false distinction. Calvinism does indeed say that faith and repentence and works are all forced upon the elect without their volition.

 

[Bishopite]

Which is in the bible…
Faith and obedience = salvation

F+W=S

Yes, in fact Paul uses the words obedience and faith together in sort of book end statements in Romans 1 and 16 which are the begining and ending chapters. Both are needed.

Romans 1:5"Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;"

Romans 16:26 “but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith,”

 

[mlldrl]

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”(Luke 23:39-43)
This man admits that he is not good (repentance) and asks Jesus to remember him when he returns to earth (trust). He is nailed on a cross. He could do no good before he died. Yet, Jesus tells him he would be with him in Paradise (which, i understand, is heaven). It seems for this man that God’s undeserved love (grace), together with the man’s repentance and faith, was enough to get him into heaven.

I suppose I’d ask you about the rich young man. What was the result of his life? As far as we know from scripture he believed in Jesus and followed the commandments but wasn’t willing to do the good works that Christ asked him to do. If you try to apply the same logic as you apply to the good thief then the rich young man should also see paradise. Did he? We don’t know for sure but we do know that at that moment he turned away from ALL the Lord was calling him to do.

Something you may not be aware of is what is called the ordinary means of salvation. The ordinary means is to do all that the Lord commands us to do. Believe in him, be baptized, celebrate the sacraments, keep the commandments, look after your neighbor…all these things. These are the things you and I are commanded to do by our Lord. We are called to do them because we can. The good thief did what he could given that he was about to die.

Given this, my question to you is this…

So then why not play Russian roulette with your salvation, why be good? If you can wait until the last possible moment why shouldn’t you? After all, wouldn’t life be more fun if you didn’t have to speed all that time in prayer? The answer? I’ll give you a hint, a Dixie cup and a swimming pool.

God Bless,
M

 

[Janet_S]

Janet:

Are you holy? Can anyone be perfect? Did not Jesus say that “No one is good but God alone”? Yes, in Luke 18 he did, as did St. Paul in Romans 3:12.

So, then, how can anyone obey the words of the writer of Hebrews and “be holy”? (Notice that he does not say become holy, rather he says be (right now) holy.) If you read on, the writer gives you and i a clue as to how you and i might be perfect in God’s eyes:

14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. … 22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. …The writer says that people can indeed be made perfect. The question is, how? Are they perfect because they live sinless lives, or are they perfect because Jesus lived the perfect life you or i could never live and offers it to us as an absolutely free gift? I do not see any other way i could possibly be (in the present tense) holy and righteous and perfect, do you?

Perhaps this is why St. Paul wrote that even righteousness is a gift, which we can only be given and cannot earn.

For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

(Romans 5:17)

Jesus also says in Matthew 5:48 “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Holiness is not merely a life free from sin–it is much more. Catholics believe all Christians are called to holiness through which they can participate in the life of the Holy Trinity.

What is holiness? John Henry Newman explains holiness as a “frame and temper of mind.” Following is his first sermon “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” a sermon on Hebrews 12:14, and it was written long before he became a Catholic.
newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume1/sermon1.html

"To be holy is, in our Church’s words, to have ‘the true circumcision of the Spirit;’ that is, to be separate from sin, to hate the works of the world, the flesh, and {3} the devil; to take pleasure in keeping God’s commandments; to do things as He would have us do them; to live habitually as in the sight of the world to come, as if we had broken the ties of this life, and were dead already. Why cannot we be saved without possessing such a frame and temper of mind?

I** answer as follows: That, even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter."**

So, according to Newman, holiness is necessary if we want to participate in the life of the Trinity joyfully for all eternity.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Probably best to leave math out of salvation.

Ricko:

Arithmetic was never my best subject, although i enjoyed algebra. You make a good point that we should “leave math out of salvation” and it might help to explain that i was not trying to create some kind of a formula but was attempting to provide a simple way of showing at a glance the belief i am questioning (namely, a Protestant view of the way to heaven) and the belief i am considering (namely, the Roman Catholic view of the way to heaven). I was never trying to produce some kind of mathematical proof. My sincere hope was that this would help the conversation rather than hinder it.

It might be helpful for me to rephrase these two beliefs:

(1) A Protestant view of the way to salvationg) and (r) and (f) results in (s) and (w)--------------------------------------------(2) The Roman Catholic way to heaveng) and (r) and (f) and (w) results in (s)

---

where

g is God’s grace
r is repentance
f is faith
w is good works
s is salvation (or eternal life)
I’m asking why (2) is true and (1) is not, hoping that someone with far more wisdom than myself will show me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

"Socrates4Jesus:

Perhaps i’m misunderstanding the nature of repentance and faith and good works. Let me try to explain it as clearly as i can and then you can explain how my definitions are inaccurate.

Repentance is not doing anything good, it is admitting i’m not good and need to change and need God’s forgiveness. This is why i believe it is different from a good work, which is doing something good.

Saving faith is not doing something good, it is trusting in the good that Jesus did for me to save me by his undeserved sacrifice on the cross.

Good works are doing something good (by avoiding sin or obeying God).

How would you define repentance and faith and good works?

How would you define repentance and faith and good works?

It doesn’t even matter how they are defined. All that matters is whether they are all acts (mental, physical, spiritual, psychological - doesn’t matter) that require human volition. Does having faith require human volition, or is it forced on us by God? Does having repentance require human volition, or is it forced on us by God? …

I ask you, VM, to think about what you said, that is, “It does not matter how they are defined”. Are you are saying is that it does not matter what words mean? I think you are mistaken, and please let me explain why.

Lets apply your principle to the statement you just made:

Does having faith require human volition, or is it forced on us by God? Does having repentance require human volition, or is it forced on us by God?

Lets also say you make this assertion during a conversation with a Calvinist. Does it matter how you and he define human volition? You might say, “No, of course not, what we mean by the words we say does not matter at all. Definitions are not imporant.”

However, the Calvinist might define human volition as that which God makes a person do. He would then say your statement is self-contradictory. To convince him, you would have to show him how his definition of human volition is flawed.

A Jehovah’s Witness, when you say the words saving faith, thinks of trusting only in the Watchtower organization’s literature to explain the way to heaven. Before you might save such a lost sheep, you would have to explain the true meaning of saving faith, i believe.

Hence, if you and i mean completely different things when we say the words grace, repentance, faith, salvation and good works, how can we ever understand one another? Will we not be talking at each other and misunderstanding one another rather than listening to one another?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Yes, in fact Paul uses the words obedience and faith together in sort of book end statements in Romans 1 and 16 which are the begining and ending chapters. Both are needed.

Romans 1:5"Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;"

Romans 16:26 “but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith,”

You forgot the words in the middle of those two verses:

Now to anyone who works, their wages are not credited to them as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to anyone who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

(Romans 4:4-5)
Should we judge a book by its bookends, or should we read the entire work, cover to cover, before passing judgement?

Bishopite, perhaps you better understand Romans than i do. Will you explain why, if St. Paul believes good works are a cause of salvation, that he would write that a man who is saved does “not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly”?

 

[VociMike]

I ask you, VM, to think about what you said, that is, “It does not matter how they are defined”. Are you are saying is that it does not matter what words mean? I think you are mistaken, and please let me explain why.

Lets apply your principle to the statement you just made:

Does having faith require human volition, or is it forced on us by God? Does having repentance require human volition, or is it forced on us by God?

You are taking excessive liberties with what I said. I never said that it doesn’t matter how anything is defined, under any circumstances. What I said was that the particulars of the definitions of faith, repentence and works don’t matter to my particular point about human volition playing a key role in God’s gift of salvation. What matters to my point is that either they are all acts of human volition, or none of them are acts of human volition.

It is as if you wanted to argue over the particular chemical makeup of apples and hamsters, when all I am discussing is the fact that they both possess mass and thus obey the law F=ma. In the context of F=ma, the exact composition of apples and hamsters doesn’t matter. Similarly, in the context of how our salvation depends upon acts of human volition, it is not necessary to come to precise meanings of faith, repentence and works. It is only necessary to acknowledge that they are acts of human volition. What is key to my point is that the gift of salvation depends not only on God’s grace, but on specific acts of human volition as well. Do you agree or disagree with this last point?

 

[I_Leatherman]

It might be helpful for me to rephrase these two beliefs:

(1) A Protestant view of the way to salvationg) and (r) and (f) results in (s) and (w)--------------------------------------------(2) The Roman Catholic way to heaveng) and (r) and (f) and (w) results in (s)

---

where

g is God’s grace
r is repentance
f is faith
w is good works
s is salvation (or eternal life)
I’m asking why (2) is true and (1) is not,…

Are works an optional consequence of Faith.
Or
Are works necessarily concurrent with Faith.
i.e.
Is there ever a time where Faith does not result in works.
The answers is no, and yes.
Faith that does not result in works is a dead Faith and is useless.
And yes, Faith that is usefull allows works immediatly.
f-w=dead f, yes?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I suppose I’d ask you about the rich young man. What was the result of his life? As far as we know from scripture he believed in Jesus and followed the commandments but wasn’t willing to do the good works that Christ asked him to do. If you try to apply the same logic as you apply to the good thief then the rich young man should also see paradise. …
Given this, my question to you is this:

So then why not play Russian roulette with your salvation, why be good? If you can wait until the last possible moment why shouldn’t you? After all, wouldn’t life be more fun if you didn’t have to speed all that time in prayer? The answer? I’ll give you a hint, a Dixie cup and a swimming pool.

God Bless,
M

If you are speaking of the rich young man who would not follow Jesus, i think the difference between him and the condemned criminal on the cross next to Christ is this: Repentance. The thief on the cross had it, the rich man did not. The thief on the cross knew he was not good, the rich man did not.

The condemned criminal said of himself:

We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

(Luke 23:41)
In contrast, Luke makes this observation of the rich man:

But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”(Luke 10:29)Jesus told this parable:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”(Luke 18:9-14)Do you think Jesus was using this story to illustrate that a person who refuses to repent (like the rich, young ruler) will never enter heaven, while the man who admits he is not good (like the thief on the cross) and needs to be forgiven will?

I’m not saying repentance is the only requirement to receive the gift of eternal life. I’m only suggesting that the example you gave shows the necessity for repentance (not good works). If there are examples in Scripture that actually do show good works to be a cause of salvation, please point them out to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You are taking excessive liberties with what I said. I never said that it doesn’t matter how anything is defined, under any circumstances. What I said was that the particulars of the definitions of faith, repentence and works don’t matter to my particular point about human volition playing a key role in God’s gift of salvation. What matters to my point is that either they are all acts of human volition, or none of them are acts of human volition.

It is as if you wanted to argue over the particular chemical makeup of apples and hamsters, when all I am discussing is the fact that they both possess mass and thus obey the law F=ma. In the context of F=ma, the exact composition of apples and hamsters doesn’t matter. Similarly, in the context of how our salvation depends upon acts of human volition, it is not necessary to come to precise meanings of faith, repentence and works. It is only necessary to acknowledge that they are acts of human volition. What is key to my point is that the gift of salvation depends not only on God’s grace, but on specific acts of human volition as well. Do you agree or disagree with this last point?

I’m just asking what you mean when you say repentance and faith and good works and salvation. If you do not want to answer the question, then i ask you to consider St. Peter’s words:

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect…
(1 Peter 3:15)

 

[heisenburg]

Ricko…

1. Completely agree… and mentioned first thing that trying to create an equation for salvation is bad… however…
2. Check the math again

f=s+w
f-w = s+w-w (do the same to both sides)
f-w = s : which is what i concluded. I didnt show a step wrongly assuming people would know the step i skipped

However

to divide gives the wrong result and doesn’t cancel out the W on the right

f=s+w
f/w = (s+w)/w

saying (s+w)/w = s is algebraically wrong

Not trying to be annoying, just correcting a math error. The physics in me gets obnoxious when I see stuff like that so please forgive me if you took it personally

In Christ

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Jesus also says in Matthew 5:48 “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Holiness is not merely a life free from sin–it is much more. Catholics believe all Christians are called to holiness through which they can participate in the life of the Holy Trinity.

What is holiness? John Henry Newman explains holiness as a “frame and temper of mind.” Following is his first sermon “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” a sermon on Hebrews 12:14, and it was written long before he became a Catholic.
newmanreader.org/works/parochial/volume1/sermon1.html

"To be holy is, in our Church’s words, to have ‘the true circumcision of the Spirit;’ that is, to be separate from sin, to hate the works of the world, the flesh, and {3} the devil; to take pleasure in keeping God’s commandments; to do things as He would have us do them; to live habitually as in the sight of the world to come, as if we had broken the ties of this life, and were dead already. Why cannot we be saved without possessing such a frame and temper of mind?

I** answer as follows: That, even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter."**

So, according to Newman, holiness is necessary if we want to participate in the life of the Trinity joyfully for all eternity.

Janet:

Thank you for your definition of holiness. If you consider Jesus’ words that you quoted carefully, what did he mean?

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Notice that he uses the word be. He does not say, “So become perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” He says, “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

I’m assuming our beloved Redeemer would never ask anything of us that is impossible for us to do. Please tell me, in your opinion, how can you, personally, be (right now) as perfect as the Father? I’m asking a sincere question.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Are works an optional consequence of Faith.
Or
Are works necessarily concurrent with Faith.
i.e.
Is there ever a time where Faith does not result in works.
The answers is no, and yes.
Faith that does not result in works is a dead Faith and is useless.
And yes, Faith that is usefull allows works immediatly.
f-w=dead f, yes?

Yes, but correlation does not necessarily mean causation, does it? I agree the Holy Spirit causes good works to be done by a true follower of Christ. I’m just asking whether those good works are a cause or a consequence of salvation. I suppose i’m looking at salvation as an event rather than a process. I’m looking at it as a gift i accept rather than a paycheck i earn.

 

[VociMike]

I’m just asking what you mean when you say repentance and faith and good works and salvation.

Definitional wars are the death of any discussion, so I accept your definitions of all of these for the sake of this discussion, provided that you agree that repentence and faith and good works all involve human volition.

BTW, for Catholic expanations of these, see the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church).

 

[Janet_S]

Janet:

Thank you for your definition of holiness. If you consider Jesus’ words that you quoted carefully, what did he mean?

“So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Notice that he uses the word be. He does not say, “So become perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” He says, “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

I’m assuming our beloved Redeemer would never ask anything of us that is impossible for us to do. Please tell me, in your opinion, how can you, personally, be (right now) as perfect as the Father? I’m asking a sincere question.

You first. What do you think He means by this. You said before that He said only the Father is good.

I’ll respond to your question after you answer mine.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Definitional wars are the death of any discussion, so I accept your definitions of all of these for the sake of this discussion, provided that you agree that repentence and faith and good works all involve human volition.

BTW, for Catholic expanations of these, see the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church).

Fair enough, VM. Yes, i agree that all of these involve free will. In fact, i believe love is impossible without free will, as one of the early church fathers reasoned. Also, if you want to point out what the Catechism says, i would be willing to consider it, if you will explain it to me. What is your question, please?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You first. What do you think He means by this. You said before that He said only the Father is good.

I’ll respond to your question after you answer mine.

LOL! Well, i already have an idea what he means, which is why i asked you. No problem, though.

Let me start with a brief story. The other day my wife got a phone call. As she was on the phone, my sons started arguing with one another. In response i said, “Be quiet!” What i did not mean is to say that they should become quiet, eventually. What i meant was that out of love and respect and consideration for their mother they should zip their lips right then and there.

Jesus tells us to be perfect (not become perfect), and to be (in the present) as perfect as God himself. But he also says, as you pointed out, that no one is good but God alone. How can people who are not good be perfect?

Well, i do not think they can be good based on what they do, because no one is perfect. I would respectfully disagree with Catholic Thomists, here. So, being good must be based on something other than what i do. But how?

In searching the Scriptures, i think i found the answer (and you can tell me whether i am mistaken?), and the answer is in Hebrews (the book from which you also quoted earlier):

Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

"This is the covenant I will make with them

after that time, says the Lord.

I will put my laws in their hearts,

and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds:

"Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more."

(Hebrews 10:13-17)

Do you see how the words, “by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever” explain how you and i can be (right now) perfect?