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catholic1seeks
Guest
Yes and what of this is controversial??? It speaks to the plain fact…
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Well I for one am thankful for Fr. James Martin. I don’t know of anyone else in the church who is reaching out to such a marginalized community. He simply has a listening ear.
Fact is, it’s much more complex than simply saying homosexuality activity is a sin. Most gay persons who desire relationship are wanting much, much more than simply “same-sex acts.” But that’s the point: the church needs to listen better to the needs of LGBT persons. Fine, deny them marriage, but you still must listen to their human needs for intimacy and love.
I am of the opinion that, unless you yourself are LGBT or have a closed loved one who is, this subject will simply not resonate. It’s much easier to sling Bible verses and Catechism quotes and claim anyone else is a heretic than it is to actually walk in someone else’s shoes.
Fact is, it’s much more complex than simply saying homosexuality activity is a sin. Most gay persons who desire relationship are wanting much, much more than simply “same-sex acts.” But that’s the point: the church needs to listen better to the needs of LGBT persons. Fine, deny them marriage, but you still must listen to their human needs for intimacy and love.
I am of the opinion that, unless you yourself are LGBT or have a closed loved one who is, this subject will simply not resonate. It’s much easier to sling Bible verses and Catechism quotes and claim anyone else is a heretic than it is to actually walk in someone else’s shoes.
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billy15
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But you are making an argument, and like Exnihilo, I and many others don’t find it convincing either. You’re arguing that same-sex attraction is something you’re born with, that it’s genetic. In any case, crushes are indeed different from sexual attraction. Not all homosexuals experience this attraction to the same sex at a young age. There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that the origins of same sex attraction are purely or mostly genetic. Present some studies if you truly believe otherwise. All we have are theories so far, some of which are, perhaps, substantiated better than others. To quote Dr. LeVay again, a gay man himself: "Where people endorse and encourage homosexuality, the incidence increases; where they reject it, it decreases. These factors have nothing to do with genetics.”
One such study, which actually backs up Dr. LeVay’s theory, and was conducted by the National Health and Social Life Survey (NHSLS, blows some major holes in the theory that all, or even most people who have identified as homosexual have known they had this feeling since an early age. It also invalidates the theory that same-sex attraction is unable to change. Dr. Jeffrey Satinover testified before the Massachusetts Senate Judicial Committee regarding this and used data from the NHSLS’ study in his testimony:
One such study, which actually backs up Dr. LeVay’s theory, and was conducted by the National Health and Social Life Survey (NHSLS, blows some major holes in the theory that all, or even most people who have identified as homosexual have known they had this feeling since an early age. It also invalidates the theory that same-sex attraction is unable to change. Dr. Jeffrey Satinover testified before the Massachusetts Senate Judicial Committee regarding this and used data from the NHSLS’ study in his testimony:
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billy15
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I can think of two other people off the top of my head in the Church who are reaching out to this marginalized community in a way that is much more consonant with the Gospel than Fr. James Martin.
One of them is Joseph Sciambra, a lay Catholic: “Throughout the 1990s, Joseph lived around the homosexual culture of the Castro District, offering him rare insight into the daily lives and struggles of many gay men. Later, he became an amateur porn actor and escort. In 1999, following a near death experience, Joseph returned to the Love of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church.”
Mr. Sciambra can often be seen at gay pride parades ministering to the people there, letting them know that our Lord Jesus is ready to welcome them in His Church. However, he does not dance around the truth in the slightest. He shows true love for his brothers and sisters, as love is defined, “to will the good of another”. His “listening ear” is unparalleled.
The second person is a priest who “built a bridge” long before Fr. Martin put out his book, Fr. John F. Harvey, O.S.F.S. He, along with Fr. Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R., founded Courage International, where people are encouraged to “Move beyond the confines of the homosexual label to a more complete identity in Christ” which “help individuals gain a greater understanding and appreciation of the Church’s teachings, especially in the area of chastity, Courage extends the Church’s invitation to a life of peace and grace. In chaste living, one finds the peace and grace to grow in Christian maturity.” There are many great resources for this community on their website.
I do have loved ones that are attracted to the same sex. It’s heartbreaking because instead of living that call to conversion we as Catholic Christians must undertake, they have indulged in a lifestyle which is contrary to the Gospel. Nobody’s “slinging Bible verses and Catechism quotes” when talking to these people. I sure don’t. I don’t know who’s calling anyone a heretic either. Haven’t seen that happen in this thread, for sure. But if they enter an honest conversation with me, you better believe I will allude to these words and teachings. Trust me when I say this, although I am not attracted to the same sex, and while I can never fully understand what they are going through, this subject certainly resonates with me. I pray for their conversion, and for the conversion of the world, every day.
One of them is Joseph Sciambra, a lay Catholic: “Throughout the 1990s, Joseph lived around the homosexual culture of the Castro District, offering him rare insight into the daily lives and struggles of many gay men. Later, he became an amateur porn actor and escort. In 1999, following a near death experience, Joseph returned to the Love of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church.”
Mr. Sciambra can often be seen at gay pride parades ministering to the people there, letting them know that our Lord Jesus is ready to welcome them in His Church. However, he does not dance around the truth in the slightest. He shows true love for his brothers and sisters, as love is defined, “to will the good of another”. His “listening ear” is unparalleled.
The second person is a priest who “built a bridge” long before Fr. Martin put out his book, Fr. John F. Harvey, O.S.F.S. He, along with Fr. Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R., founded Courage International, where people are encouraged to “Move beyond the confines of the homosexual label to a more complete identity in Christ” which “help
I do have loved ones that are attracted to the same sex. It’s heartbreaking because instead of living that call to conversion we as Catholic Christians must undertake, they have indulged in a lifestyle which is contrary to the Gospel. Nobody’s “slinging Bible verses and Catechism quotes” when talking to these people. I sure don’t. I don’t know who’s calling anyone a heretic either. Haven’t seen that happen in this thread, for sure. But if they enter an honest conversation with me, you better believe I will allude to these words and teachings. Trust me when I say this, although I am not attracted to the same sex, and while I can never fully understand what they are going through, this subject certainly resonates with me. I pray for their conversion, and for the conversion of the world, every day.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I never said it was genetic.
However, being born with same sex attraction is a reality and probably has more to do with hormonal issues.
Years ago, PBS Frontline presented what was known by scientist at the time on gay males. They did not study females.
In the majority of cases of gay males, they discovered that while they were still in their mother’s womb, the mother went through some stressful event. It’s known that females carry a small level of testosterone and that when the woman is stressed, her body will use that testosterone to help her through it. What they theorized, and I think it makes sense, is that while the mother went through stress during her pregnancy, her body deprived the male fetus of the testosterone which they would normally have gotten. The male child was then born deficient in testosterone. In fact, they used testosterone therapy on the gay males in the study and they ended up being attracted to the opposite sex. However, their attraction to the same sex was still stronger, but they theorized that the testosterone given, could not safely reach the levels that a heterosexual male would normally have.
Anyway, they have never found a so-called “gay gene.” But that doesn’t change the fact that all male homosexuals know from a very early age, that they have a strong attraction to males, and some have a lesser attraction to females. In the old days of my years, such males would stay in the closet and even marry a person of the opposite sex, only to live in misery and they often ended up divorced.
But who are we to say that their attraction to the same sex at an early age is not biological, but psychological which can be cured ? Most experts will tell you that the idea that there is a cure is merely rhetorical. Even those who at one time claimed to be cured of same sex attraction, reverted later on.
But who am I to judge ?
Jim
However, being born with same sex attraction is a reality and probably has more to do with hormonal issues.
Years ago, PBS Frontline presented what was known by scientist at the time on gay males. They did not study females.
In the majority of cases of gay males, they discovered that while they were still in their mother’s womb, the mother went through some stressful event. It’s known that females carry a small level of testosterone and that when the woman is stressed, her body will use that testosterone to help her through it. What they theorized, and I think it makes sense, is that while the mother went through stress during her pregnancy, her body deprived the male fetus of the testosterone which they would normally have gotten. The male child was then born deficient in testosterone. In fact, they used testosterone therapy on the gay males in the study and they ended up being attracted to the opposite sex. However, their attraction to the same sex was still stronger, but they theorized that the testosterone given, could not safely reach the levels that a heterosexual male would normally have.
Anyway, they have never found a so-called “gay gene.” But that doesn’t change the fact that all male homosexuals know from a very early age, that they have a strong attraction to males, and some have a lesser attraction to females. In the old days of my years, such males would stay in the closet and even marry a person of the opposite sex, only to live in misery and they often ended up divorced.
But who are we to say that their attraction to the same sex at an early age is not biological, but psychological which can be cured ? Most experts will tell you that the idea that there is a cure is merely rhetorical. Even those who at one time claimed to be cured of same sex attraction, reverted later on.
But who am I to judge ?
Jim
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billy15
Guest
That is an interesting theory, thank you for posting about it. It certainly sounds plausible, and it shows how, while going back to the first few months of life, such a disposition is not necessarily innate, but could be made by a deficiency of some kind of hormone.
I would still disagree with you that it is a “fact” that all male homosexuals have an attraction to males from an early age. Consider how there has been a rise in people identifying as “bisexual” in the last few decades. This gives credence to Dr. LeVay’s theory that “the incidence of homosexuality is clearly influenced by mores.” I would maintain that the uptick in people claiming to be homosexual (although that number is really only about 2% of the population, if that) is caused partially by the endorsement of homosexuality as a virtuous or accepted way of life, and also (not exclusively) by hormonal or genetic factors, as you and I can both agree . It’s much more complicated than one or the other, which is why I don’t buy Lady Gaga’s “born that way” mantra.
I would still disagree with you that it is a “fact” that all male homosexuals have an attraction to males from an early age. Consider how there has been a rise in people identifying as “bisexual” in the last few decades. This gives credence to Dr. LeVay’s theory that “the incidence of homosexuality is clearly influenced by mores.” I would maintain that the uptick in people claiming to be homosexual (although that number is really only about 2% of the population, if that) is caused partially by the endorsement of homosexuality as a virtuous or accepted way of life, and also (not exclusively) by hormonal or genetic factors, as you and I can both agree . It’s much more complicated than one or the other, which is why I don’t buy Lady Gaga’s “born that way” mantra.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I specifically used the terms, “gay or homosexial,” not bisexual as you’re now addressing.
The study did not address bisexuals, but my guess is that it’s hormonal driven.
However, in the case of homosexual males, everyone I’ve even known or heard, says they had the attraction to other males from a very early age, and little or no attraction to females.
Their experience is valid, and Fr Martin in his book points out, that homosexuals have been part of the human race for as long as there have been humans, and they’re not going anywhere.
So, we as Catholics, how do we help bring them to Christ and His Church ? This is what Fr Martin addresses in his book.
He in no way approves of homosexual acts nor nor does he deny the teachings of the Church on marriage.
The title of the book is “Building the Bridge,” but it’s turned out to be, “opening a can of worms.”
Jim
The study did not address bisexuals, but my guess is that it’s hormonal driven.
However, in the case of homosexual males, everyone I’ve even known or heard, says they had the attraction to other males from a very early age, and little or no attraction to females.
Their experience is valid, and Fr Martin in his book points out, that homosexuals have been part of the human race for as long as there have been humans, and they’re not going anywhere.
So, we as Catholics, how do we help bring them to Christ and His Church ? This is what Fr Martin addresses in his book.
He in no way approves of homosexual acts nor nor does he deny the teachings of the Church on marriage.
The title of the book is “Building the Bridge,” but it’s turned out to be, “opening a can of worms.”
Jim
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