Why bother if participation doesnt matter

[Cor_ad_Cor]

How do you figure?

Does a parent not guide when establishing rules for their children? With the Church, most of the “mandates” are matters of conscience anyway - it’s only known to you and God if you’ve met them. Doesn’t sound like anything onerous being imposed.

 

[misstherese]

I have “actively participated” for 17 years and that resulted in a loss of faith. I’m just now trying to get back into participating with my mind turned towards God, not just my words. I will eventually say the words as well, but for now, my goal is to cultivate Interior recollection during the OF mass.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The church isn’t guiding when they create mandates and obligations.

The bottom line is if the Church doesn’t make something mandatory then most people won’t do it, the same was as if the law doesn’t make something mandatory then most people won’t do it. This is human nature and common sense.

The Church makes a “mandatory minimum” requirement that Catholics show up for Mass once a week. You’re expected to go beyond that and actually participate and maybe even go more than once on your own if you really want to practice your faith in a spirited way.

 

[DeniseNY]

I participate in the recited responses in the Liturgy, but not for those that are sung. I have a terrible voice and I don’t want to subject those around me to listening to it. I don’t think that in any way means I’m “not fully there”. It’s not like I zone out and start thinking about the 1:00 football game or what I’m going to wear to a meeting or something.

 

[idifacs_john]

sounds like a plan brian, now all i have to do is find a place to sit where people wont be inclined to do the mandatory shaking hands at the sign of peace.

 

[idifacs_john]

That should tell the Church something if it feels the necessity to mandate anything especially in regards to common sense. it is like creating a health care law that is forced into law that everyone knows is a crock, and then saying you have to participate in it or else.

But when you create something that is worth everything, it is supposed to be, then you dont need to create a mandate for participation especially when that participation is supposed to be based on love and wanting to be there in the first place.

Though all things considered I have seen it said plenty of times that it isn’t about what we want, it is about God and what God wants, so that makes it even more of a forced participation with out any real consideration as to what the individual really needs in their life. or wants in their life at that particular time.

 

[idifacs_john]

There is no way to close this thread before the 14 day time limit is there ?

 

[guanophore]

if one person is there or not, doesnt participate, doesnt really mean jack diddly because the priest is really the only one that matters then everything else being stated really doesnt mean that much.

A person not being in attendance does not invalidate the Mass, is what was stated. It was as if the OP expected the Mass to no longer be valid if he was not in attendance?

God cant put restrictions on love, He cant say you dont really love me if you dont participate at mass

Why not? We are His creatures. He has always called His Own to obedience.

“If you love me, keep my commands.” John 14:15

He is not saying He will love us less if we do not follow His commandments. He is saying that obedience is a way of demonstrating our love for Him.

since the church said the bare embarrassing minimum is to be there on holy days of obligation is the proof that one does love God .

It is pathetic that the faithful need to be instructed in the “bare minimum”. It means that, instead of striving toward the maximum, some of the faithful are in danger of abandoning thei faith and need to be tethered.

Then no matter which way one splits the issue one can never really love God because of human limitations or some never ending state of sin. I

It is true that we cannot, without grace, fulfill His commandments or be perfected in love. God did not intend for us to live in a state of “never ending sin”. Rather, He died on the cross to free us from the bondage of sin.

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” Eph. 2 8

We cannot be fulfilled or please Him without receving His grace.

I appreciate what the church offers

I don’t think you really do. I don’t think you understand the Church/Sacraments as the vehicle of God’s grace.

 

[guanophore]

what i dont appreciate is a discussion that essentially states that it really doesnt matter if laity are there are not, and it doesnt matter if one participates or not, we just have to be in the seats give our 10 % and be polite.

This makes sense to me. It seems that you have misunderstood what was being said. The fact that the Mass is valid even if the laity are not present has to do with how the sacrament is effected. It is not a reference to the role of the laity,which has been addressed in detail in other venues.

It seems that you have a deep desire to be an essential part of the Church, and this is a good thing. Unless you are a priest, that essential role is not in cathecting the Eucharist, but elsewhere. It is your duty to find where you belong. Giving up in despair because it is not your role to make the Lord’s supper valid will not help to ease your longing.

Besides, although the Mass is valid when you are not there, the Eucharist will not benefit you personally if you are not there. That is the part I think you are missing.

So it is not enough to just be there; now we have to be there participate and be happy too, it is literally taking all aspects of freedom away, and forcing people into submission all under this guise of well you dont really love God if you dont do it this way, or you are a bad catholic or what ever other label is out there to slap onto people.

I agree. there is no church teaching that is based on emotion, and nothing that commands us to “be happy too”. Freedom is not based on emotion anyway. Freedom comes to us by being severed from the bondage of sin.

One does have to wonder if love of God is present if one does not obey His commandments. Something is amiss in us if we cannot/do not obey HIm.

“In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,” I Jn. 5:3

 

[guanophore]

An then there is the guilt trip aspect of it, Christ died for you, well no kidding, but I didn’t ask for that, I didn’t make that choice, an no one in their right mind would to ask for such a thing to happen, that was a personal decision made and doesnt justify penalizing or guilt tripping someone who either doesnt understand, or just doesn’t want to be held as a victim for something one never even had a part in.

You are right. While you were yet a sinner, He died for you. We are born into sin, and we are penalized by it to death. So, like it or not, you are a “victim” of the consequence of sin in which you did not have a personal participation (sin of Adam). Guild has been created to help guide us into Life. If you are guilt tripping, this is not entirely a bad thing. It means that God is trying to guide you into a more fulfilling way of being in the world.

you dont do something good, then create a set of rules saying if you dont show appreciation an love then by our standards you are a bad person and off with your head.

It sounds like you are putting human standards of values on to God. God is our Creator, so He gets to set things up with His Creation however He likes. He gets to make rules for His Creatures, and He gets to judge the standards. Fortunately, He desires that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. He does not want you to be parted from Him through sin.

but again it is rather puzzling if the church really finds it necessary to deem the laity are obligated to attend mass and participate and be happy, but it doesnt really matter in the long run because the priest is the one doing it all,

Clearly you misunderstood the statemment and are not familiiar with the teachings of the Church. The Church does not teach taht the priest “can do it all”. This is false.

if we dont like it then watch out

There is some Truth to this, because you have an obligation to discover what God is calling you to do with your life, and your role in His One Body, the Church. There are consequences if you refuse to do this.

 

[idifacs_john]

well thankfully my faith isn’t based upon what you think i do or do not know.

 

[misstherese]

what i dont appreciate is a discussion that essentially states that it really doesnt matter if laity are there are not, and it doesnt matter if one participates or not, we just have to be in the seats give our 10 % and be polite.

It’s matters to Jesus. It’s like saying, “I know you sacrificed your life for me and all, suffered excruciating pain for me (and I know you would do it a thousand times more if needed) but I really just feel like it was pointless.”

We attend because we are going to see Jesus so humbly go into a piece of bread for us. We attend because He wants us; He loves us more than anyone on earth could love us. He loves each one of us as though we were the only soul in existence.

 

[guanophore]

well thankfully my faith isn’t based upon what you think i do or do not know.

Yes! I often have the same sentiment during my discussions here on CAF. A discusssion forum has many benefits, but there are deficits as well.

All we can do is go on what has been written, and that leaves us limited.

 

[guanophore]

It’s matters to Jesus. It’s like saying, “I know you sacrificed your life for me and all, suffered excruciating pain for me (and I know you would do it a thousand times more if needed) but I really just feel like it was pointless.”

This is actually a sentiment that is much too common. Depressed people, and those in the bondage of guilt, may not feel like they are worth saving, or may feel permanently trapped in a “life of sin” from which even God cannot extricate them.

 

[brian_custer]

you allow yourself to get used to it
a simple handshake to the the two (by seating) closest parishioners to you

not a really big deal

you can run to the vestibule after the “Our Father” if this is something that otherwise prevents you from spending time in Christ’s presence

 

[RandomAlias]

what is the purpose of being forced to go to a mass… only to be told it doesnt matter if we participate or not.

It is like a great feast. It is taking place, with or without you.

Jesus Christ will be there. Not only him, but all who are united with him in Holy Communion – the Apostles, Mary, the prophets, all the saints, and all who partake in the sacrament. They are all there in the Body of Christ. It’s the most awesome and glorious event ever!

… and you want to stay home?

 

[mkoopman]

I know of a priest who was directed, in obedience, as are the faithful directed in this matter of Holy Days of Obligation. He was directed to bring Christ to an urban area under the control of street criminals. These drug warlords understood the nature of his assignment, by the ruler of this world is my expectation on this matter. The priest gave his life for these people.
Those masses were valid and the priest participated alone, usually. The masses were offered for the people to whom this priest was assigned, occasionally with the participation of a widow or mother of a child who had been killed. Would it not have been a greater good for this priest to have been able to have masses said with all of the persons in his care participating?
Yes, an extreme condition with an extreme unction and martyrdom resulting. I see it as a counter point to your failure to understand the value of participation in The Celebration of The Lamb. Go and celebrate then go to bring Jesus received in The Eucharist to all the events in your life until the privilege to attend the next mass is possible.

 

[mkoopman]

May God attend to you and bless you with spiritual growth through your dark night.

 

[twf]

Yet the Eastern Liturgies have always had responses and not a moment of silence… so both approaches have merit.

 

[mkoopman]

Yes, DarkLight, intended to be a reply to idifacs_john. Mea culpa.