Why bother if participation doesnt matter

[guanophore]

im starting to find more an more reasons to not bother going to mass, than i am for why it matters if i am there or not.

Maybe you ae looking for reasons?

For the record, I agree with you. There is no point going if participation doesn’t matter!

That being said, the statement that the Mass is valid if only the priest s present does not equate to “the participation of the laity is not relevant”.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Participate in order to rid yourself of death and to gain eternal life. Do your part to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I recently saw another thread , in which the comment was made that laity participation in the mass is not necessary for the mass to be valid, that the priest alone makes the mass valid, wether or not anyone is there.

so then; exactly what is the purpose of being forced to go to a mass under obligation and with a penalty imposed if we dont go, or imposed upon ones return, only to be told it doesnt matter if we participate or not.

what it sounds like ,is just go, sit there, dont be rude and all is well. im starting to find more an more reasons to not bother going to mass, than i am for why it matters if i am there or not.

That is why it is completely wrong for those who have the mindset of a past that is in the past to say that full conscious and active participation does not matter. Of course it matters.

The world’s bishops gathered together in ecumenical council taught at Vatican II

1. But in order that the liturgy may be able to produce its full effects, it is necessary that the faithful come to it with proper dispositions, that their minds should be attuned to their voices, and that they should cooperate with divine grace lest they receive it in vain. Pastors of souls must therefore realize that, when the liturgy is celebrated, something more is required than the mere observation of the laws governing valid and licit celebration; it is their duty also to ensure that the faithful take part fully aware of what they are doing, actively engaged in the rite, and enriched by its effects.

II. The Promotion of Liturgical Instruction and Active Participation

1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy /…/ In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.

1. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes.

1. The Church, therefore, earnestly desires that Christ’s faithful, when present at this mystery of faith, should not be there as strangers or silent spectators; on the contrary, through a good understanding of the rites and prayers they should take part in the sacred action conscious of what they are doing, with devotion and full collaboration. They should be instructed by God’s word and be nourished at the table of the Lord’s body; they should give thanks to God; by offering the Immaculate Victim, not only through the hands of the priest, but also with him, they should learn also to offer themselves

 

[babochka]

I have “actively participated” for 17 years and that resulted in a loss of faith. I’m just now trying to get back into participating with my mind turned towards God, not just my words. I will eventually say the words as well, but for now, my goal is to cultivate Interior recollection during the OF mass.

I don’t think thar cultivating interior recollection is passive, as you described it in a previous thread. Cultivation requires action, albeit interior.

 

[babochka]

I participate in the recited responses in the Liturgy, but not for those that are sung. I have a terrible voice and I don’t want to subject those around me to listening to it. I don’t think that in any way means I’m “not fully there”. It’s not like I zone out and start thinking about the 1:00 football game or what I’m going to wear to a meeting or something.

I also have a terrible voice. I sing softly enough that others drown me out. What spoken responses do you have? We sing/chant everything.

 

[idifacs_john]

i just find it pointless to shake a strangers hand an say peace, when the entire context of offering a sign of peace probably didnt originally mean offering a sign of peace to total strangers , i find people annoying as can be to begin with and then having to be bothered with a hand shake, especially with people who give really limp or weak hand shakes just as annoying. an i shouldnt have to leave where ever im sitting to avoid shaking someones hand either. not to mention i cant stay seated when ever i want because for some reason kneeling has become a thing to where everyone kneels and leans on the back of the seat in front of them, so I either end up with some morons face in the back of my head or i end up having to be the smart one an scoot forward so it doesnt happen.

It is just too many stupid rules in the long run, go because we said so participate because we said so, but it doesnt matter that much and be happy or else. The geniuses who keep making these awesome rules mine as well just declare to have arranged and forced marriages because they know what is better for everyone elses spiritual and physical well being and then also declare how many children a couple should have as well.

 

[PJM]

I recently saw another thread , in which the comment was made that laity participation in the mass is not necessary for the mass to be valid, that the priest alone makes the mass valid, wether or not anyone is there.

so then; exactly what is the purpose of being forced to go to a mass under obligation and with a penalty imposed if we dont go, or imposed upon ones return, only to be told it doesnt matter if we participate or n

John dear friend

Mass is 100% about Worshiping our God

That is the very reason we have been Created by God and that our lives are sustained by God

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21
[7] And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him & [21] This people have I formed for myself, they shall shew forth my praise

The idea of the Mass being FOR US; for our gratification is a post Vatican II innovation.

we ARE the ones who benefit from Mass as God is Perfect and cannot be made more so. Still we are there to WORSHIP Him, to hear HIS Word and to receive Him Worthily in Catholic Holy Communion.

It’s ALL about God; we are bystanders in HIS Service.

That my friend is the WHY and HOW we attain grace

In humility: be STILL & KNow that YOU ARE in the actual Presence of the VERY GOD who created the universe and you [and me too]

Mass is a GIFT

From God the Father

OF God the Son

By the Holy Spirit

Be keenly aware that you ARE in the Divine Presence; and in humility be thankful

Patrick

 

[DeniseNY]

We recite the Creed and the communion prayers.

 

[ProVobis]

I know people who won’t recite the Creed (or certain parts of it) because they don’t believe those certain parts.

 

[Edward_H]

Because it’s the effect of the Mass on you (and those that should benefit by your presence then and hopefully later on)…not what you’re doing for the Mass.

Our humility has enormous effects.

But I can tell by the framing of the question this idea is very foreign to you.

 

[PetraG]

Do you believe God justly deserves your worship? I don’t mean high regard or sweet fuzzy thoughts. I mean worship. Does God deserve to be held in incomparable awe? Does God deserve immeasurable gratitude? Does Christ’s saving death and resurrection deserve a weekly portion of undivided attention?

Does it make sense that a Christian ought to desire to put the Pascal Mystery at the center of his attention, rather than himself?

Yes, the Mass is the source and summit of the Christian life, whether you get that or not. God wants you there not because God needs it, but because you do.

 

[PetraG]

Do you tell your physician he or she isn’t “guiding” you when the doctor is merely telling you how your body works and what you need to do to remain not just reasonably healthy but alive?

You seem to have this idea that freedom and license are the same thing. They are not. The gift of free will allows you to reach happiness out of an act of will. It doesn’t change the laws of physics and reality to revolve around your imagination, so that you get to decide not just your actions but also their consequences.

In order to be free to choose happiness you must also be free to choose misery. To choose to center your attention on yourself and your whims while treating reality as an unfair imposition on your sovereignty to do as you please without repercussion is to choose misery.

If you reject the reality that loving God with your whole soul, your whole heart and your whole mind and loving your neighbor as yourself is your path to true happiness, you don’t change the reality. You set yourself on a path to bitter disappointment.

Choose life. It starts with the graces available when you open your eyes to what the Mass is and, seeing you are on the holiest of ground, falling down and worshiping out of such gratitude and joy that you could cry. That is a work of faith, but it is the truth of what awaits those who long to see the splendor and sustenance that the Mass truly is.

 

[Limoncello4021]

I know people who won’t recite the Creed (or certain parts of it) because they don’t believe those certain parts.

Wow–talk about cafeteria Catholics!! The creed states the most basic of all Catholic beliefs. What could a sincere Catholic possibly object to?

 

[TheLittleLady]

We go to Mass because we love God.

 

[babochka]

We recite the Creed and the communion prayers.

Okay. You mentioned responses, so I was thinking it was something else. We sing the Creed, but recite the Communion prayers.

From a fellow bad singer, I feel your pain. The liturgy is so beautiful and it is difficult to not be able to beautifully sing it.

 

[DeniseNY]

Yeah, bad/wrong terminology on my part!

I should probably be less self-conscious about my singing voice, but it’s hard!

 

[PetraG]

It is like a great feast. It is taking place, with or without you.

Jesus Christ will be there. Not only him, but all who are united with him in Holy Communion – the Apostles, Mary, the prophets, all the saints, and all who partake in the sacrament. They are all there in the Body of Christ. It’s the most awesome and glorious event ever!

… and you want to stay home?

It is not just a great feast. It is the sacrifice in which we, joined to Christ as His Body, are offered. We are covered by his blood, but we are also won and claimed by Him. We, the baptised, belong to God, entirely, and we ought to see the Mass as God’s way of making us acceptable to be offered to God.

If then you were raised with Christ, seek what is above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Think of what is above, not of what is on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ your life appears, then you too will appear with him in glory.

Put to death, then, the parts of you that are earthly: immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and the greed that is idolatry. Because of these the wrath of God is coming [upon the disobedient].

By these you too once conducted yourselves, when you lived in that way. But now you must put them all away: anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths. Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator.

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all and in all.

Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do.

And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection.

And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, as in all wisdom you teach and admonish one another, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

And whatever you do, in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. Col. 3:1-17

When you see what the Christian life is, you see how it is that the Church recognizes it as “the source and summit of the Christian life.” It is not just some obligation. It is the very fountain of grace and the touchstone in real time to the Pascal Mystery.

 

[guanophore]

You sound like you don’t believe that it is Jesus Himself in that Tabernacle. Wow–if a huge celebrity that you love comes to town and you have free, front row seats you wouldn’t attend? And here is the creator of the universe, your creator, your lover, your redeemer, and you are too bored to go?

I didn’t really get the impression that there was boredom, or lack of belief as much as a sense that the OP does not feel essential to the Mass. The comment that triggered this response was that the mass is “valid” even if there are no laity present. This got translated somehow into “my participation doesn’t matter”. This issue was expressly addressed in the Vatican 2 documents referenced in this thread.

But I agree with you, if we were as excited and enthused about meeting Jesus in the Mass as we are to go to happy hour, sports events, concerts and other gatherings, the Church would be more full, more active, and the Body of Christ more robust. You are right that many have lost the sense of Jesus present in the tabernacle, and in the Eucharist.

Maybe you should read up on the importance of the Mass and all the benefits you get from going so that you can see why the Church thinks it’s so important that we go every Sunday and holy day.

I think this is an important part of all adult faith formation. Most of us are stuck at a childlike stage of formation in the faith, not having been educated since CCD classes as children.

Most, including possibly the OP on this thread, have not read the documents of Vat.2.

to then find out that if one person is there or not, doesnt participate, doesnt really mean jack diddly because the priest is really the only one that matters then everything else being stated really doesnt mean that much.

This perception is the root of the problem. This is not what was said, but you have imagined it, then reacted to it. You have created a straw man, then attacked it. But you are right, if what you are asserting here were true, then it would not mean jack diddly. Fortunately, it is a product of your warped imagination!

 

[guanophore]

God cant put restrictions on love, He cant say you dont really love me if you dont participate at mass

Why not? He is your creator! He can put whatever kind of restrictions on your existence He wants! Who are you (God?) to decide what the Creator is allowed to do or not? It seems like you have made yourself God.

An then there is the guilt trip aspect of it

Have you considered seeing a therapist or a spiritual director?

I know the mass isn’t pointless, but it feels pointless if it doesnt matter i participate or not and it doesnt matter if i am there or not.

If you were to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, then your experience would be markedly different.

The church isn’t guiding when they create mandates and obligations.

How do you figure that?

That should tell the Church something if it feels the necessity to mandate anything especially in regards to common sense. it is like creating a health care law that is forced into law that everyone knows is a crock, and then saying you have to participate in it or else.

As was stated, it is human nature. Often we know the right thing to do, but don’t do it. We don’t eat healthy, don’t do our preventative dentistry and medical, don’t exercise enough, etc. etc. People would not get their vaccinations if they weren’t required either. And if we did not have traffic laws we would have chaos.

Yes, it would be great if people did what is best for them out of their zeal to be perfected in their humanity, but obviously we need help getting there.

Though all things considered I have seen it said plenty of times that it isn’t about what we want, it is about God and what God wants, so that makes it even more of a forced participation with out any real consideration as to what the individual really needs in their life. or wants in their life at that particular time.

It sounds like you expect God to revolve around your needs and wants, rather than you revolving around His. Shall the clay say to the potter, why hast thou made me thus?

I should probably be less self-conscious about my singing voice, but it’s hard!

Scripture tells us to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord!”

 

[RandomAlias]

It is not just a great feast. It is the sacrifice in which we, joined to Christ as His Body, are offered. We are covered by his blood, but we are also won and claimed by Him. We, the baptised, belong to God, entirely, and we ought to see the Mass as God’s way of making us acceptable to be offered to God.

Quite right. As I wrote, I suspected that “feast” is not exactly right, but “party” would perhaps be irreverent. What I was getting at is the communal aspect of Communion.

I am currently reading a book about the Eucharist, called God Is Near Us, by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI). I have just finished a chapter about the sacrificial aspect, much as you wrote. When I wrote my previous remark, I was reading another chapter about the presence and participation of the whole Church, in all places and times. Tomorrow I may be thinking about some other aspect. There is so much for me to learn about the Eucharist!