Why bother if participation doesnt matter

[PetraG]

I am currently reading a book about the Eucharist, called God Is Near Us, by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI). I have just finished a chapter about the sacrificial aspect, much as you wrote. When I wrote my previous remark, I was reading another chapter about the presence and participation of the whole Church, in all places and times. Tomorrow I may be thinking about some other aspect. There is so much for me to learn about the Eucharist!

Pope Benedict wrote some wonderful passages about the Mass.

What amazement must the Apostles have felt in witnessing what the Lord did and said during that Supper! What wonder must the eucharistic mystery also awaken in our own hearts!
–Pope Benedict XVI, Sacramentum Caritatis

 

[joeybaggz]

i just find it pointless to shake a strangers hand an say peace, when the entire context of offering a sign of peace probably didnt originally mean offering a sign of peace to total strangers ,

It is just too many stupid rules in the long run,

It is my understanding that the handshake at the sign of peace is a symbolic expression of Christ’s words when he said, (and this isn’t verbatim) “if your brother does you wrong, go first to your brother and make peace, then go to the temple and offer your sacrifice.” (and I know that is a terrible citation - maybe a scripture scholar can help me out??) It is to symbolically forgive others for their offenses against you so that you may worthily received Christ.

As to “too many stupid rules…” here’s a rule that you may or may not find stupid. “Keep Holy the Sabbath.” One of ten some guy wrote on stone tablets. Attendance at Mass is the Church’s prescription for obeying that Commandment.

God is no more or less powerful, no more or less wise, no more or less loving if you don’t attend Mass. But others are. The faith of one person often strengthens the faith of another. I know of one mother of three whose husband was talking about leaving the marriage and family who told me that the only reason she kept going to Mass and believing was that the Chief of Surgery and his three daughters at the local regional medical center came to Mass every week and participated, and if he could do it, so could she. BTW - hubby decided to stay and it worked out.

You never know!

 

[PetraG]

This is from Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church (11)

It is through the sacraments and the exercise of the virtues that the sacred nature and organic structure of the priestly community is brought into operation…Taking part in the eucharistic sacrifice, which is the fount and apex of the whole Christian life, [the faithful] offer the Divine Victim to God, and offer themselves along with It. Thus both by reason of the offering and through Holy Communion all take part in this liturgical service, not indeed, all in the same way but each in that way which is proper to himself. Strengthened in Holy Communion by the Body of Christ, they then manifest in a concrete way that unity of the people of God which is suitably signified and wondrously brought about by this most august sacrament.

 

[PetraG]

to then find out that if one person is there or not, doesnt participate, doesnt really mean jack diddly because the priest is really the only one that matters then everything else being stated really doesnt mean that much.

This is not what the Church teaches, OP. The Mass is valid if you are not there but the Mass does not have the effect on you that you need it to have, nor does it have the effect it is intended to have on your relationship with God and the rest of the faithful if you are not there.

If you miss Mass on Sunday, which canon law refers to as “the primordial holy day of obligation” on which “by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated” or you miss one of the other holy days of obligation, you miss that participation which is meant to sustain you and the People of God.

This has been a temptation since the earliest of times. St. Paul wrote: 'We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works. We should not stay away from our assembly, as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near." Heb. 10:24-25

 

[idifacs_john]

okay fine since you want to qoute scripture, exactly where did Paul say I must go to mass every Sunday and Holy Day of obligation and that I must be happy about it as well. because all i read is should and must consider, two very important word(s) that are not a blow across the head that states I have to do anything, if I dont want to, if anything Paul is only suggesting that you and others continue to do what you are doing and that is to try an persuade others to join together in prayer in some kind of assembly which has morphed into a brick an stone location that is a " church " which people do not even remotely fathom to look up the original context and definition of the word as it was said and meant at the time. An then to confuse that word even more leaders decided to give an untangable word a gender, as people do with hurricanes, and cars, based on idioitic scripture passages that one baffoon decided to interpret one way versus another. Any how I don’t read any more analogies people are posting, i see things briefly like, well if you were sick you wouldnt argue with your doctor, or some other such nonsense, and the analogies dont tread water and neither do the arguements on why participation matters or why it is okay for the church to subject and obligate a person into doing something based on because i said so and because someone else eons ago interpreted a scripture passage differently from someone else on the opposite of the world.

All of the arguements on the church obligating people to go to mass and be happy or else, along with what ever canon laws created are nothing more than personal opinions and conjuecture by those who created such laws. More over the fact that Church cant even enact or complete all of the changes from vatican is something to be considered too. Then on top of this you have bishops and laity claiming the Pope is saying or doing hertical things on top constant sex crimes / an so basically it seems to fit that the " church " could take a bit of scripture it self an that is to take the beam out of their own eye before trying to take the splinter out of mine. I don’t need anyone telling me the difference between right and wrong, and the church has no right to force me to go to mass if im not in the mood or " disposition to go " but as someone else said the Church figured out a long time ago if they didnt make it an obligation, no one would go. An that there says it all about the church. All I see is a system that has become like everything else, corrupted. The outline was put down with great intentions, and then over time just twisted and distorted.
It would just be nice if the church stopped obligating catholics to bending over backwards to their rules that they dont even have to follow and let us come an go as we need to. instead of saying we have to be there or else and we sure as heck better be happy or else, and if you leave, woah nelly you are going to get it.

If these rules were set in stone by some new age religious instutition , they would be considered nut cases and loonies of a cult.

 

[Sir2v4]

idifacs_john4d1
I recently saw another thread , in which the comment was made that laity participation in the mass is not necessary for the mass to be valid, that the priest alone makes the mass valid, wether or not anyone is there.

so then; exactly what is the purpose of being forced to go to a mass under obligation and with a penalty imposed if we dont go, or imposed upon ones return, only to be told it doesnt matter if we participate or not.

what it sounds like ,is just go, sit there, dont be rude and all is well. im starting to find more an more reasons to not bother going to mass, than i am for why it matters if i am there or not.

of course there is typical cookie cutter answer, God loves us, we love God. an that is nice and fuzzy, except that love is free and a two way street and telling someone well if you love me you will do this or else suffer the consequences, which the church cant really seem to answer why that is okay to impose upon people. at least not explain in a logical way other than because we said so.

---

We go to Mass to celebrate the victory of Christ on the Cross and in his resurrection. We go because Christ wants to give Himself to us in the Eucharist. We go to Mass to renew the new covenant .

The Lord’s prayer is often said so rapidly, that perhaps the words don’t soak in: We praise the Father and pledge to hallow his Name. We pledge ourselves to promote the kingdom on earth, and we pledge ourselves to do His will – BEFORE – we dare to say “give us [this and that].”

The psalmist wrote “I rejoiced when they said to me, let us go up to the house of the LORD.” it should be a joyful event – each time. The emotional part of this is not obligatory, this is intellectual joy and hope in our Salvation.

 

[idifacs_john]

Plenty of ways to keep the Sabbath Holy, and first you have to get everyone to actually understand which day is the Sabbath to begin with, and then not limit how to keep it holy to being only in a place of worship in an assembly. One honest 5 minute prayer has to be worth more than not wanting to be annoyed by an assembly of people for an hour and listening to a horrible homily , or not wanting to go for any reason one can choose be it lazy or not it makes no sense for God to want someone who doesnt want to be in church to be there. Let alone the Church trying to strike fear of people going to hell if they dont.

 

[idifacs_john]

these drivel cookie cutter answers are really starting to get nausiating.

 

[PetraG]

okay fine since you want to qoute scripture, exactly where did Paul say I must go to mass every Sunday and Holy Day of obligation and that I must be happy about it as well.

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you. Heb. 13:17

Rejoice in the Lord always. I shall say it again: rejoice! Your kindness should be known to all. The Lord is near. Have no anxiety at all, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. Then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Then the God of peace will be with you. Phil 4:4-9

I’m concerned about your feeling that you are being told to “be happy or else.” No, no. First off, even the great saints went through periods of spiritual dryness when things that they intellectually knew were true did not give them spiritual consolations. If you aren’t “feeling it,” that does not say anything about whether you are being faithful or not. You can be very faithful and not “feel it.”

No, the laws of the Church aren’t personal opinions. You know that is not true. I think you also know that the value of the Mass doesn’t change because other Christians, including those entrusted with our pastoral care, as sometimes deeply disappointing.

It is also not true that if Mass was not an obligation, no one would go. Many of us go to daily Mass, some even every day, and there is no obligation to do that. More to the point, most of the Protestant churches do not teach that it is obligatory to attend church to hear the Gospel proclaimed every single Sunday, yet many Protestants do.

And no, it is not true that obliging Catholics to go to Mass every Sunday would make us a cult if we were a new organization. What happens when people decide they don’t feel like showing up for work? A weekly obligation to attend Mass and rest from servile work is nothing compared to the laundry list of obligations most adults take for granted.

You came and asked “if my absence doesn’t invalidate the Mass, why should I want to go?” We’ve been trying to explain the value of the Mass and the reason we need to be at Mass celebrating the Pascal Mystery as the Body of Christ every Sunday we are able. I thought that was the question. The idea that the Church has been “corrupted” because it doesn’t please you is the first foot out the door. That is a matter that causes concern about you, not “whoa, Nelly, are you going to get it.” We are concerned not about the punishment you are going to get “from above” but the harm you are doing to yourself by distancing yourself from this great source of grace.

 

[PetraG]

Plenty of ways to keep the Sabbath Holy, and first you have to get everyone to actually understand which day is the Sabbath to begin with, and then not limit how to keep it holy to being only in a place of worship in an assembly. One honest 5 minute prayer has to be worth more than not wanting to be annoyed by an assembly of people for an hour and listening to a horrible homily , or not wanting to go for any reason one can choose be it lazy or not it makes no sense for God to want someone who doesnt want to be in church to be there. Let alone the Church trying to strike fear of people going to hell if they dont.

these drivel cookie cutter answers are really starting to get nausiating

I am very curious to hear what answer you thought you were going to get from a group of people who love going to Mass and who think (as the Church teaches) that the Mass is the highest and best thing the Church does, the source of all the good works the Church does and the pledge of future glory.

What can we do for you here? You had to know from the beginning we weren’t going to go for your line of reasoning. Do you want help in understanding why perseverance is worth it in spite of how you are feeling or do you just want some justification you can use to convince yourself that the obligation isn’t a real obligation at all?

We’d like to help you see that the Mass is worthwhile in spite of your current negative feelings. We’d like you to look hard at the substance of the arguments you have been making, and whether or not they actually do agree with the plain meaning of the Gospels. Go ahead and read the Gospels for ten minutes a day and see if that leads you to leading the life you imagine, where you aren’t bothered by a Mass and you aren’t forced to be around any other Christians. (Don’t forget to read the Acts of the Apostles. It is essentially the Gospel of Luke, Part 2)

And yeah, keep coming to Mass, anyway. It is worthwhile. I am pretty sure you know that very well, deep down.

 

[guanophore]

okay fine since you want to qoute scripture, exactly where did Paul say I must go to mass every Sunday and Holy Day of obligation and that I must be happy about it as well.

YOu sound very angry.

Jesus gave the Apostles the Keys to the Kingdom and the power to bind and loose. This is legislative authority. They passed this authority to their successors, the Bishops.

Joy is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. If you are “not happy about it” ( communing with Jesus) then you are being robbed of your birthright.

I have to do anything, if I dont want to,

Oh, I agree! God created you with free will, and he will sadly watch you walk right through the gates of hell if that is what you choose to do,

some kind of assembly which has morphed into a brick an stone location that is a " church " which people do not even remotely fathom to look up the original context and definition of the word as it was said and meant at the time.

It is a sad fact that most Catholics are poorly catechized.

An then to confuse that word even more leaders decided to give an untangable word a gender,

No, God has revealed this to humans. It did not come from “leaders”. He made known to the world that the Church is His Holy Bride.

why it is okay for the church to subject and obligate a person into doing something based on because i said so

It sounds like this boils down to an authority problem

All of the arguements on the church obligating people to go to mass and be happy or else, along with what ever canon laws created are nothing more than personal opinions and conjuecture by those who created such laws.

It certainly seems to me that a man of good conscience would have a much easier time ignoring them if one could convince oneself that their origin is not in God,

More over the fact that Church cant even enact or complete all of the changes from vatican is something to be considered too.

I agree. Each of us needs to examine where we fall short of seeing that these changes become implemented.

 

[guanophore]

so basically it seems to fit that the " church " could take a bit of scripture it self an that is to take the beam out of their own eye before trying to take the splinter out of mine.

Well, idifacs, it seems that you certainly do experience some weighty convictions about your own shortcomings. The flaw with your formula here is that the beam and the splinter relate to individuals. Certainly all individuals need to examine the log in their own eye. But you seem to be spewing defiance at the "rules’ without any specific individual to fault for telling you what to do,

the church has no right to force me to go to mass if im not in the mood or " disposition to go " but as someone else said the Church figured out a long time ago if they didnt make it an obligation, no one would go. An that there says it all about the church. All I see is a system that has become like everything else, corrupted. The outline was put down with great intentions, and then over time just twisted and distorted.

You certainly seem to have done a masterful job projecting your own psychological state on the Church. You are right, no one can force you to go to Mass when you are not in the mood,

Perhaps, rather than the Church setting up expectations for us that are to spiritually benefit us, they should spend more effort teaching us to indulge our moods?

It would just be nice if the church stopped obligating catholics

It sounds like your conscience is really giving you a hard time!

 

[guanophore]

it makes no sense for God to want someone who doesnt want to be in church to be there

Maybe you are wondering why God could possibly love you, and want to spend an eternity with you? Sometimes when we are really miserable, we don’t like being around ourselves either!

these drivel cookie cutter answers are really starting to get nausiating.

I am thinking that you really did not want “answers”. You just wanted to spew some negativity.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I sometimes see it as eating my spiritual vegetables. I don’t always feel like going and it’s sometimes very inconvenient but I go because it’s good for me.

 

[Limoncello4021]

I agree that the OP sounds combative, and is not open to reflection on the answers given. Hence it is not worth continuing to give them.

 

[idifacs_john]

combative and using common sense pretty much puts an end to a redundant response of conjectured and subjective answers by an establishment that only creates rules to keep itself in power and to keep those subjected to those rules blinded by the Truth , The mass is needed, the sacraments are needed, but to force a people to participate or face a penalty is not love nor is it anything God would ever want, God cant be as stupid as the people who created these rules , but the people who created them knew God wouldnt just flat out pop up and go hey wait a minute… so they get away with what they do time and again and anyone questioning the new age Pharisees are beaten down and slapped with named calling and labels.

But mind you if you are one of these new age Pharisees , you get to have an opinion, that everyone can go woooo that is interesting and new an something to " reflect upon " it is just nonsense responses time and again, quoting scripture and canon law with out really knowing the context of what is being quoted and not considering that the law is just a subjective opinion at best.

But again it is just beyond annoying to have to sit and stand multiple times , shake hands with strangers that dont mean a hill of beans to my life nor impact what so ever, and to be told that is the only and right way to pray and to be told that if i dont like it ima bad catholic, or cafeteria catholic or bad christian.

People can’t even see how that what Jesus was doing was the exact opposite of what we have now. An there is absolutely no way Jesus could possibly be happy with the way the church is opperating, but for what ever reason God is more than content to let it run its’ course.

But what ever, all one can do is vent their complaints and carry on, same for the way our current government is, it was created in the best possible way and taken over by a corrupted two party system that is now trying to eat one another for complete rule. But at least we were given a semblance of hope by being able to vote out the corrupt. An the ablity to put forward a vote for better laws.

An this post is irritating to people, what irrates me are other posts wondering if " aliens " should be baptized , yet for some reason the church thinks that in all of Gods’ infinite love and mercy, he cant make room in heaven for the animals that he created, especially the ones that have been neglected and abused, or wont instantly take the unborn or unbaptized children into heaven.

There is just so many contradictions created by threads on here and with in the church that it becomes mind numbing.

That and another reason i cant stand attending mass at times is because there are some people i really want to just drop kick for either talking right in my ear, kneeling into the back of my head, or i can hear them from across the room. I shouldnt have to go hunting for a quiet place to pray.

 

[Genesis315]

You have an obligation as a matter of of natural justice and also under the First Commandment to adore God. Adoring God at Mass in union with the Eucharistic Sacrifice is the supreme way He has given us to adore Him. That is why the Church requires we do this on Sunday (also the Third Commandment requires we keep holy the Lord’s day, and this is also the best way to do that, which is another reason the Church requires it of her members).

Just because the Eucharistic Sacrifice is offered with or without your participation, doesn’t mean it’s not good for you to participate (or harmful to you not to).

 

[guanophore]

God cant be as stupid as the people who created these rules , but the people who created them knew God wouldnt just flat out pop up and go hey wait a minute

It sounds like you really don’t believe the promises made by Jesus to guide the Church and to remain with her until the end of the age. You have more of an absentee landlord idea I guess, that humans have taken over what God established and it is no longer His church.

participate or face a penalty is not love nor is it anything God would ever want

Maybe you have never been a parent? Perhaps you don’t have experiential knowledge of this truth? There are penalties/consequences when humans do not do the things we need to do to stay healthy.

This is like saying parents not allowing their kids to eat candy for breakfast are not loving.

But again it is just beyond annoying to have to sit and stand multiple times , shake hands with strangers that dont mean a hill of beans to my life nor impact what so ever, and to be told that is the only and right way to pray and to be told that if i dont like it ima bad catholic, or cafeteria catholic or bad christian.

It sounds like you are looking for something that more revolves around your own needs, wants, sensibilities.

People can’t even see how that what Jesus was doing was the exact opposite of what we have now. An there is absolutely no way Jesus could possibly be happy with the way the church is opperating

I think this is precisely why people separate and open their own churches. This is the very conviction that fuels protestantism.

in all of Gods’ infinite love and mercy, he cant make room in heaven for the animals that he created, especially the ones that have been neglected and abused

This may reflect a root from which this rant emanates. Abuse does change how the brain works.

There is just so many contradictions created by threads on here and with in the church that it becomes mind numbing.

This is especially true of people that think it black and white either/or thinking.

That and another reason i cant stand attending mass at times is because there are some people i really want to just drop kick for either talking right in my ear, kneeling into the back of my head, or i can hear them from across the room. I shouldnt have to go hunting for a quiet place to pray.

Clearly there is a long standing build up of intolerance, anger, and entitlement. You can be healed, idifac_john. God wants to heal you, and His Church has healing grace for you. I will pray for you to have deliverance.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

You aren’t the only person who finds things annoying when it comes to mass. To be honest those things you mention bug me too. How we feel isn’t always the best way of knowing what is good for us.

 

[idifacs_john]

oh man, so cringy to hear someone i will pray for your deliverance, about as bad as the bible thumpers walking asking if you know that Jesus is our Lord and Savior, yes I have already been delivered, I’ve already been saved, thank you drive through.

What i do not accept is anyone online thinking they actually know me and know what my problems are. The last thing anyone needs is armchair therapists thinking they can help a total stranger let alone diagnose a complete stranger online with any kind of " professionalism " and then more over it is worse when people feel the need to play spiritual hero.

I said what I needed to say , I wasn’t trying to convince anyone of anything , it started out as a question, and then when i realized that the answers that were coming were just more of the same ole rhetoric that church officials brain wash into people it became more of a time wasting arguement.

It was i guess a lil entertaining to vent this out. Sadly there just isn’t any way for the mass to be enjoyable for me; it is more of a nusiance and a burden and the only brief relief is Christ in the Eucharist and Blood; and there isn’t any way to stop church officials from creating more spiritual laws that damn people for using the conscience that God gave them to figure out right from wrong and to have a better relationship with Jesus and God.

Alright folks I do appreciate the dialouge , I honestly couldnt read all the responses because some were too long and I wasn’t in any mood for reading some of the tit for tat responses.

Im sure there will be more responses because everyone wants the last word, i get it.

I might come back to read them I might not. I really wish there was an easier way to close a thread than waiting 14 days after a last post. cause it could go down to the 13th day an someone replies with, oh wow this is a long thread, or anything and then it goes on for another 14 days.

Cheers peeps.

Been fun.