Why bother to pray? God's Will Paradox

[Abbadon]

This was a stand up comedy act i saw a video of recently by George Carlin. He wasn’t very funny but he had alot of good cinical points about things. Which i guess is his angle.

“Fine pray for anything you want
but what about the devine plan
remeber that the devine plan
long itme ago god made a devine plan gave it alot of thought
decided it was a good plan
put it into practice
and ofr billions of billions of years the devine plan has been doing just fine
Now you come along and pray for something
well supose the thing you want insnt in gods devine plan
what do you want him to do change his plan
just you for?
doesnt it seem a little arrogant
its a devine plan
whats the use of bieng god if every run down shcumuk with a $2 prayer book can come along and **** up your plan?
And heres something else
another problem you might have.
SUppose your prayers aren’t answered what do you say
well it’s gods will, thy will be done.
if it’s gods will be done
Fine… but if it’s gods will he’s going to do what he wants to anyway why the **** bother prayin in the first place
seems like a big waste of time to me
Can’t you skip the praying part and go straight to his will?”

But it brought up something i had long forgotten about. This giant paradox that is prayer.

These statements are only from my understanding so it’s probably my understanding that is wrong and there really is no paradox.

God knows everything. He/she knows the future. He/she knows the choices you will make in life. He/she has a plan.

Okay knowing these statements. We say prayers and ask for things in these prayers. Healing etc… God already knows your going to pray for it, then does he make it so yes or no? Oh god its so confusing… Pretty much George Carlin summed it up.

Can someone help me understand it?

 

[puzzleannie]

since the proper end of prayer IS conformity to God’s will and trust in His Divine Plan, George has hit the nail on the head with his premises, but his conclusion is flawed because he has not looked at the real nature of prayer, rather sees it as the basic “sit on Santa’s lap and tell him what you want” or wearing your lucky sox.

 

[Scottgun]

Let’s take this part:

Fine… but if it’s gods will he’s going to do what he wants to anyway why the **** bother prayin in the first place
seems like a big waste of time to me
Can’t you skip the praying part and go straight to his will?"

God is our father. And this is reflected in many ways with our biological fathers. Let me ask this, is talking to your biological father a big waste of time? That’s all prayer is really; talking to God. In this world, we talk to the people we love and not just to get stuff out of them. The problem with scoffers is the tendency to reduce everything to utilitarianism.

 

[Abbadon]

More than the conversation with god. This more looks at things like miracles i suppose and asking for god for something.

Does it count as a miracle if it was going to happen anyway. Why do we ask for things that have already been set in motion by gods plan and will.

 

[Scottgun]

More than the conversation with god. This more looks at things like miracles i suppose and asking for god for something.

Does it count as a miracle if it was going to happen anyway. Why do we ask for things that have already been set in motion by gods plan and will.

You are right that it is not just conversation with God. In addition to vocal requests, there is also mental and contemplative prayer. Try the last section of the Catechism. It’s a gold mone about prayer.

I usually think of miracles as something overriding natural laws. But I understand your question–that is, if I pray for something that God was going to give me anyway, what does that mean? Well, if I asked my earthly dad for a Red Rider BB gun for Christmas, and he has already bought it, wapped it and stuck it under the tree, is it really a waste of time asking him? Waste of time according to whom? I love the guy and he loves me. People who love people share without regard over who holds what cards and when they held them. I’m not sure what the objection is. If I love God, I want to take everything to Him. My praise, my thanks, my sins, and even my desires whether noble or sleazy. I suppose someone who loves his father has difficulty understanding when the Carlin bit implies that God is some kind of impersonal, pre-ordained divine slot machine. I think it says much more about the person making the assertion than about God.

 

[chewchoo]

Let’s take this part:

God is our father. And this is reflected in many ways with our biological fathers. Let me ask this, is talking to your biological father a big waste of time? That’s all prayer is really; talking to God. In this world, we talk to the people we love and not just to get stuff out of them. The problem with scoffers is the tendency to reduce everything to utilitarianism.

excellent
i fought with the why bother to pray for a while too.
we don’t change the motion of earth much with our prayers.
(there have been documented miracles, true, but a small number compared to the number of prayers going up)

i don’t remember the passage, but in the bible, it says god wants us to pray to him constantly. and that doesn’t necessarily equate to asking for something, but just talking with god. we have to remember that god is there, and how better to remember someone then to “give them a call” and just chat.

 

[Leopard]

I don’t pray expecting God to change Himself and His creation to conform to my will (at least not in my better moments).

I pray hoping God will transform His creation (including me) to conform to His will.

 

[Abbadon]

Well everyone here seems to have a non paradoxical view on prayer. But what about the countless people that pray to god for things or events to occur? Are they doing the wrong thing? Should we not pray like…

Dear god please help cure my sister of cancer. I don’t know what i would do without her. She’s so young please god help her.

or

Dear god my mother was blinded saving me from a fire, please send a miracle and make her see again.

If those things aren’t in his plan (his will, thy will be done) those things wouldn’t happen. No matter how many people prayed for it. But if they are in his plan those things will happen even if no one prayed for it.

So why pray for benefits to befall you and your loved ones or even the world?

If world peace or the end of poverty isn’t in gods plan, no matter how many people pray it won’t happen.

Let me ask this, is talking to your biological father a big waste of time?

Without sounding to cynical i do have to say, my father talks back with me. I honestly haven’t prayed in a long time, i used to alot, but it seemed like no one would listen. But my mother always listened and she was always there even if god seemed not to be. So eventually i stopped and now i just pray to my mother and father and friends.

Well, if I asked my earthly dad for a Red Rider BB gun for Christmas, and he has already bought it, wrapped it and stuck it under the tree, is it really a waste of time asking him? Waste of time according to whom?

Or he might have already bought you something else, but seen how much happiness a bb gun would bring and bought two one for you and one for him. Or he might have got you something else but he would explain that a bb gun would be a bad influence in your life. What about if your dad didn’t listen to you and didn’t care and just got you a tie? Would he do that? Isn’t it then a waste of time to talk with him if he never listens? I know that there are fathers and mothers out there who care nothing for their children, I’m lucky to have two that are not like that.

I apologies if i sound a little harsh, I’m just trying to get other posters to understand the paradox better so that maybe i can reach a better understanding of it.

 

[chewchoo]

Well everyone here seems to have a non paradoxical view on prayer. But what about the countless people that pray to god for things or events to occur? Are they doing the wrong thing? Should we not pray like…

Dear god please help cure my sister of cancer. I don’t know what i would do without her. She’s so young please god help her.

or

Dear god my mother was blinded saving me from a fire, please send a miracle and make her see again.

If those things aren’t in his plan (his will, thy will be done) those things wouldn’t happen. No matter how many people prayed for it. But if they are in his plan those things will happen even if no one prayed for it.

So why pray for benefits to befall you and your loved ones or even the world?

If world peace or the end of poverty isn’t in gods plan, no matter how many people pray it won’t happen.

Without sounding to cynical i do have to say, my father talks back with me. I honestly haven’t prayed in a long time, i used to alot, but it seemed like no one would listen. But my mother always listened and she was always there even if god seemed not to be. So eventually i stopped and now i just pray to my mother and father and friends.

Or he might have already bought you something else, but seen how much happiness a bb gun would bring and bought two one for you and one for him. Or he might have got you something else but he would explain that a bb gun would be a bad influence in your life. What about if your dad didn’t listen to you and didn’t care and just got you a tie? Would he do that? Isn’t it then a waste of time to talk with him if he never listens? I know that there are fathers and mothers out there who care nothing for their children, I’m lucky to have two that are not like that.

I apologies if i sound a little harsh, I’m just trying to get other posters to understand the paradox better so that maybe i can reach a better understanding of it.

when my mom got cancer last year and then had surgery, she subsequently had kidney failure and had to go on dialysis. i prayed and prayed for her to get better. today she is cancer free and no longer on dialysis.

was it a miracle? were my prayers answered? was it part of god’s plan anyways? how do we know for sure?

i am going with god answered my prayers

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

If those things aren’t in his plan (his will, thy will be done) those things wouldn’t happen. No matter how many people prayed for it. But if they are in his plan those things will happen even if no one prayed for it.

So why pray for benefits to befall you and your loved ones or even the world?

If world peace or the end of poverty isn’t in gods plan, no matter how many people pray it won’t happen.

The paradox as you understand it is that God will accomplish his plan without the use of prayers from men. But this assumes that God will accomplish the ends without the use of means. God also planed the means to accomplish the ends, so that the prayer that Samson prayed to bring the house down and the house actually falling down on the Philistines were planned by God.

Also the other side of the paradox is thinking that you know God’s secret plan when he does not reveal it to you. But we cannot know God’s hidden coucil because God did not tell us those things like what is going to happen tommorow.

 

[Abbadon]

when my mom got cancer last year and then had surgery, she subsequently had kidney failure and had to go on dialysis. i prayed and prayed for her to get better. today she is cancer free and no longer on dialysis.

was it a miracle? were my prayers answered? was it part of god’s plan anyways? how do we know for sure?

i am going with god answered my prayers

Sure it wasn’t the doctors and modern medical techniques/technology?

But this isn’t what I’m talking about

 

[Abbadon]

The paradox as you understand it is that God will accomplish his plan without the use of prayers from men. But this assumes that God will accomplish the ends without the use of means. God also planed the means to accomplish the ends, so that the prayer that Samson prayed to bring the house down and the house actually falling down on the Philistines were planned by God.

Also the other side of the paradox is thinking that you know God’s secret plan when he does not reveal it to you. But we cannot know God’s hidden coucil because God did not tell us those things like what is going to happen tommorow.

It’s not about knowing whats going to happen tomorrow , I have been told god is the only bieng that knows that.

God cannot control freewill, so he should in theory not have had any idea of samsons choice when god made the plan. However if god knew and knows everysingle step we take and will take then there is no real freewill and everything is predetermined.

Okay if god has plans, like countless billion possibilites of plans then its okay. There cannot be one single plan or a single devine plan becuase that does not take into account the countless possible actions of “freewill” that happen in humans you and i are consequences of freewill had our parents not chosen each other we would not be here. If god knows this and knows we will be born 100% then there is no freewill, just the illusion of it.

Oh great this is now turning into a fate vs freewill…

okay i’m going to state my problem as simple as i can

 

[Abbadon]

Okay so in points, i’ll lay down an example

God has a divine plan​

We are catholic and pray for our mother to be cured from her sickness.​

This is not in gods plan our mother is not healed. We say it is gods will.

This is in gods plan our mother is healed. We say oh thank god it’s a miracle.​

OR​

We are Atheist and do not pray.​

This is not in gods plan our mother is not healed. We accept her death and her passing and mourn.

This is in gods plan our mother is healed. We say many thanks to the surgeons that helped accomplish this and send fruit baskets.​

Regardless of any prayer said or not said my mother would or would not die according to gods will. So “why not skip the prayer and go straight to his will”

I understand prayer as a time of consolation and communication with god. But my paradoxical problem comes from the fact that people ask god for resolutions.

 

[Scottgun]

Why does a paradox have to be a problem? Are you perhaps confusing paradox with contradiction?

 

[freesoulhope]

Does it count as a miracle if it was going to happen anyway. Why do we ask for things that have already been set in motion by gods plan and will.

It seems like a good arguement at first, but what if God has a plan that certain gifts are relative to your asking for them. Some gifts and miracles are not breaking natural law, but are the natural result of your acting in a specific way. Some times God blesses us through nature. Some things can be set in motion from the beginning of time, and God is waiting apon your choosing to actualise the thing that has been set in motion. Plus praying for people souls might not change Gods plan, but it may have, in some way unknown to us, a good effect on the freewill of a living or dead person ; and that effect is gods will. What if its Gods will to endow us with spiritual powers? Through Gods Gift, we may have the ability to positively effect the lives of others, by simply praying; and in some cases people would be healed physically on the condition that people prayed and cared for others and brought love into the world. In this sense, we would also have a spiritual responsibility to bring Gods love into the world. The more Love, the more miracles and healings. This would be Gods will. Also, man is not entitled to life on his own merit; its a gift. God may see it good to put your life in the hands of others; peoples free actions or behavior may bring about a reason for your continuing existence, it may not. Its up to God. Praying and caring for others is a strong force against our own selfish desire; it could be for “our” sake as well as the person we prey for. If it is Gods will that we prey; then it is good to prey, simply because God asks us to. Whether or not they actually do anything is beyond are comprehension; its good enough just to know that it is a good thing to do.

 

[bilop]

This issue is only a problem b/c you are placing God in the context of time. The same kind of paradox can be created with free-will.

God knows we are going to pray before we do it. Therefore, His plan already incorporates our prayer. If we weren’t going to pray, He’d know that too, and the plan would reflect it.

St. Padre Pio prayed for his father’s salvation even after his death, when it had already been decided. He said he did this because God would know about his prayers before it happened.

Remember God exists outside of all time. Cause and effect need not be linear.

God Bless

 

[freesoulhope]

Okay if god has plans, like countless billion possibilites of plans then its okay. There cannot be one single plan or a single devine plan becuase that does not take into account the countless possible actions of “freewill”

Whose to say that God doesn’t provide us with countless billions of possibilities that we can freely choose and actualise of our own accord? What if there are specail Gifts and miracles that have been put in our hands, our responsibility? This can still fall into Gods overall plan.

We must remmenber and take in to account that Gods ways are not our ways; we cannot hope to comprehend every reason he has for doing a thing.

We might never know how God could possibly know all things, and yet maintain our free-will at the same time; but If God transends (is above) time, space, and matter; then it necessarily follows that God is all knowing, since God is not bound by the cause and effect of time; and so, it also follows that all time is present to God. This is all we need to know; it is not necessary to comprehend “how”, in order for it to be true and possible. Thats why we need faith.

 

[peary]

This was a stand up comedy act i saw a video of recently by George Carlin. He wasn’t very funny but he had alot of good cinical points about things. Which i guess is his angle.

But it brought up something i had long forgotten about. This giant paradox that is prayer.

These statements are only from my understanding so it’s probably my understanding that is wrong and there really is no paradox.

God knows everything. He/she knows the future. He/she knows the choices you will make in life. He/she has a plan.

Okay knowing these statements. We say prayers and ask for things in these prayers. Healing etc… God already knows your going to pray for it, then does he make it so yes or no? Oh god its so confusing… Pretty much George Carlin summed it up.

Can someone help me understand it?

Sure. Prayer is conversation with God, not to God. Prayer is a relationship with God. We can talk over whatever we wish with God. But the correct disposition of prayer is Christ’s prayer in the Garden - “Not my will but Your Will be done.” To pray in any other way seems to me to be superstitious. And I don’t consider George Carlin to have an adequate understanding of his own Faith.

 

[bogeydogg]

Okay so in points, i’ll lay down an example

God has a divine plan​

We are catholic and pray for our mother to be cured from her sickness.​

This is not in gods plan our mother is not healed. We say it is gods will.

This is in gods plan our mother is healed. We say oh thank god it’s a miracle.​

OR​

We are Atheist and do not pray.​

This is not in gods plan our mother is not healed. We accept her death and her passing and mourn.

This is in gods plan our mother is healed. We say many thanks to the surgeons that helped accomplish this and send fruit baskets.​

Regardless of any prayer said or not said my mother would or would not die according to gods will. So “why not skip the prayer and go straight to his will”

I understand prayer as a time of consolation and communication with god. But my paradoxical problem comes from the fact that people ask god for resolutions.

OK, my mother became grievously ill in early July 1998. She went to the hospital after I found her lying on the floor in her apartment. I prayed night and day for over two weeks that God would deliver my mom from illness and night and day there were never any signs of improvement. I enlisted everyone I knew to pray for her and tried everything I could think to plead with God to spare her.

On July 27,1998 she and I had a long talk about my childhood (which was very difficult) and she apologized to me for all that had happened. I went home and got my first decent nights sleep in two plus weeks.

On July 28, 1998 when I woke to the phone ringing I didn’t even have to answer to know what the call was. I simply dressed, went to hospital and said good bye.

On July 29, 1998 she died.

Now you tell me, what was God’s will?

As I sat in front of her coffin I could hear nothing. I looked all around me at the crying faces of those I loved. My sisters sat beside me inconsolable and my estranged father stood at the back and neither cried nor came forward to pay last respects. My cousins and her friends all were in tears and the words of the preacher were far away from me. As I sat in the absolute stillness of soul emptying grief I suddenly knew that mother had gone on. That the box contained only a shell of empty dust and that there was nothing to fear or to grieve.

In answering my prayer to heal my mom God said no, but He gave me something much better which I treasure far more, the assurance that one day I will see her again.

So even when God’s will is hard to bear, and prayer seems to go unanswered, remember that we have a Father who loves us, and longs to be close to us, and for us to know Him, and in this prayer is part of His plan. I don’t pray everyday, and sometimes when I do I think the words hit ceiling and rain back down onto my head. But sometimes… sometimes I feel God in the room with me, guiding me, calling me, giving me utterance, prompting me to pray for her, him, people I don’t know and sometimes don’t even like, and in those times I know I have no need to worry whether or not my prayer is heard or if it useful, instead I lean on my Father and rest in knowing He hears, even if I have nothing much to say.

 

[Auntie_A]

OK, my mother became grievously ill in early July 1998. She went to the hospital after I found her lying on the floor in her apartment. I prayed night and day for over two weeks that God would deliver my mom from illness and night and day there were never any signs of improvement. I enlisted everyone I knew to pray for her and tried everything I could think to plead with God to spare her.

On July 27,1998 she and I had a long talk about my childhood (which was very difficult) and she apologized to me for all that had happened. I went home and got my first decent nights sleep in two plus weeks.

On July 28, 1998 when I woke to the phone ringing I didn’t even have to answer to know what the call was. I simply dressed, went to hospital and said good bye.

On July 29, 1998 she died.

Now you tell me, what was God’s will?

As I sat in front of her coffin I could hear nothing. I looked all around me at the crying faces of those I loved. My sisters sat beside me inconsolable and my estranged father stood at the back and neither cried nor came forward to pay last respects. My cousins and her friends all were in tears and the words of the preacher were far away from me. As I sat in the absolute stillness of soul emptying grief I suddenly knew that mother had gone on. That the box contained only a shell of empty dust and that there was nothing to fear or to grieve.

In answering my prayer to heal my mom God said no, but He gave me something much better which I treasure far more, the assurance that one day I will see her again.

So even when God’s will is hard to bear, and prayer seems to go unanswered, remember that we have a Father who loves us, and longs to be close to us, and for us to know Him, and in this prayer is part of His plan. I don’t pray everyday, and sometimes when I do I think the words hit ceiling and rain back down onto my head. But sometimes… sometimes I feel God in the room with me, guiding me, calling me, giving me utterance, prompting me to pray for her, him, people I don’t know and sometimes don’t even like, and in those times I know I have no need to worry whether or not my prayer is heard or if it useful, instead I lean on my Father and rest in knowing He hears, even if I have nothing much to say.

The truth here warms my soul and reminds me that our relationship with God is like a child with her parent: “Daddy, I want a puppy” “Mommy, give me ten dollars so I can buy some beer.” “If I do my chores now, will you give me a break for six months?” We have different levels of maturity and expectation.
Upon hearing “NO”, some children walk off and sulk that their parents don’t love them; others accept “No”, thinking that maybe it is because their parent is concerned about them. And others are so close at times to God that No and Yes are both the same words for “I love you.”

This is a good question on this thread. I like George Carlin. He is very gifted with words but I have to say that “bogeydog” might not be a headliner but is surely more eloquent on the subject of prayer.