Why bother to pray? God's Will Paradox

[Crumpy]

As far as the paradox goes, I’ve posted this thought several times on this website, why should we pray to Mary? If she is our mother and loves us so much, then she couldn’t possibly be praying more for us already, no? Why wouldn’t she be praying for us already?

If she’s not already praying for us to the max, then she’s not the person she is made out to be, I think.

I admit that it’s almost blasphemous to talk in such a way, but many people are stuck on this point.

We have the confidence that God will listen to our prayers. Our Lord told us to pray that his Father’s will be done – not ours.

I would like lots of this, that, and especially lots of yet another thing, but I pray that God will provide what I need, and I rest on that.

I watch all the shows on TV about fabulous houses with the latest designs and appliances, but I thank God for all the little houses that we have in our town, to keep so many people alive and comfortable. I am grateful for what He provides to so many, everywhere I look.

 

[BlaineTog]

Creation is a participation between God and Man. It doesn’t have to be; God could be doing everything for us, but he doesn’t because he wants us to have Free Will. Now, Free Will is more than an unpleasant necessity. It is a positively good thing. It is what makes it possible for us to rise higher than the angels, even as it makes it possible for us to fall lower than the demons. But we have free will, as well as a certain degree of power. What exactly falls under our power is a little fuzzy, but some things more than others are more or less obvious: for example, it’s my responsibility to get up and make myself (and then eat) breakfast, and it would be silly of me to expect God to place food directly into my stomach every day. If I scrape my knee, I should put a band-aid on it and not assume that God himself will put one on for me.

Now, prayer has two main functions: first, helping to conform the individual’s will to God’s. But we’re also encouraged to pray for “our daily bread.” God’s plan isn’t like some sort of paved road, all deviations from which leading to death in the wilderness. Rather, God’s plan is more like a probability cloud of possible paths, with which path to take undetermined from moment to moment (from a human perspective, of course). No matter how things go, they will be as perfect as they can be, taking the effects of The Fall into account. However, God wants us to have a say in how things go. As I recall, it’s not-quite-dogma-but-not-heresy-either to believe the prophesy of from Fatima that sufficient praying of the rosary will prevent WWIII.

The world is an airplane with God in the pilot’s seat guiding us on, but we sit in the co-pilot’s seat, and he wants us to learn how to fly.

 

[HappyHuman]

Okay so in points, i’ll lay down an example

God has a divine plan​

We are catholic and pray for our mother to be cured from her sickness.​

This is not in gods plan our mother is not healed. We say it is gods will.

This is in gods plan our mother is healed. We say oh thank god it’s a miracle.​

OR​

We are Atheist and do not pray.​

This is not in gods plan our mother is not healed. We accept her death and her passing and mourn.

This is in gods plan our mother is healed. We say many thanks to the surgeons that helped accomplish this and send fruit baskets.​

Regardless of any prayer said or not said my mother would or would not die according to gods will. So “why not skip the prayer and go straight to his will”

I understand prayer as a time of consolation and communication with god. But my paradoxical problem comes from the fact that people ask god for resolutions.

Haha- this got a chuckle out of me by the time I got to the fruit basket bit. Anyway, you made your point well.
I agree: whatever happens, happens. Some people will just choose to interpret whatever happened as an answered prayer, or as some mysterious part of God’s plan.

 

[HappyHuman]

This issue is only a problem b/c you are placing God in the context of time. The same kind of paradox can be created with free-will.

God knows we are going to pray before we do it. Therefore, His plan already incorporates our prayer. If we weren’t going to pray, He’d know that too, and the plan would reflect it.

St. Padre Pio prayed for his father’s salvation even after his death, when it had already been decided. He said he did this because God would know about his prayers before it happened.

Remember God exists outside of all time. Cause and effect need not be linear.

God Bless

This is a good reply- not an argument I had heard yet.

The only thing is if he already knows when we are going to pray and is factoring that into his plan, then aren’t we basically pre-destined? How does free will fit into this scenario?

 

[HappyHuman]

This is all we need to know; it is not necessary to comprehend “how”, in order for it to be true and possible. Thats why we need faith.

This is why I am agnostic. When it comes right down to it, there are questions that religion simply cannot answer without asking someone to “make a leap of faith”.

People (at least those who actully think these through) have to make a choice at some point. Are they going to accept and believe even despite the contradictions and unasnswered questions by filling in the “holes” with their faith? Or are they going to continue to think things out freely and not shy away from asking the tough questions and logically analyzing the answers?

My question to everyone here is this: If a person, in order to believe in something, is going to have to take a leap of faith at some point, what compelling reason does a person have to take that leap of faith into Catholicism, as opposed to any other religion?

 

[HappyHuman]

The truth here warms my soul and reminds me that our relationship with God is like a child with her parent: “Daddy, I want a puppy” “Mommy, give me ten dollars so I can buy some beer.” “If I do my chores now, will you give me a break for six months?” We have different levels of maturity and expectation.
Upon hearing “NO”, some children walk off and sulk that their parents don’t love them; others accept “No”, thinking that maybe it is because their parent is concerned about them. And others are so close at times to God that No and Yes are both the same words for “I love you.”

This is a good question on this thread. I like George Carlin. He is very gifted with words but I have to say that “bogeydog” might not be a headliner but is surely more eloquent on the subject of prayer.

I really liked this answer- there were actually several good answers on this thread, but I especially like the way you worded it. This is just a silly agnostic speaking, but I used to believe and have my own relationship with God at some point, and I definitely agree with this explanation of prayer.
The person who is mature in their faith doesn’t pray to ask for some worldly favor from God, but prays instead for God’s help in their struggle to be the best version of themselves that they can be… and to express their gratitude for all the ways they are blessed

 

[BlaineTog]

This is why I am agnostic. When it comes right down to it, there are questions that religion simply cannot answer without asking someone to “make a leap of faith”.

All of them, actually, require that leap of faith. At least, all of them that have anything to do with the specifics of the religion.

*People (at least those who actully think these through) have to make a choice at some point. Are they going to accept and believe even despite the contradictions and unasnswered questions by filling in the “holes” with their faith? Or are they going to continue to think things out freely and not shy away from asking the tough questions and logically analyzing the answers?

My question to everyone here is this: If a person, in order to believe in something, is going to have to take a leap of faith at some point, what compelling reason does a person have to take that leap of faith into Catholicism, as opposed to any other religion?*

Because it’s true.

In all seriousness, because it fits the data (ie the world) the best, and because there actually aren’t any of those contradictions in Catholicism (questions whose answers you don’t know, certainly, but all you have to do is look around a little to find the answer). Really, though, you’re asking for the impossible, for a logical answer to a nonlogical question.

 

[HappyHuman]

Because it’s true.

Haha- touche!

In all seriousness, because it fits the data (ie the world) the best, and because there actually aren’t any of those contradictions in Catholicism (questions whose answers you don’t know, certainly, but all you have to do is look around a little to find the answer). Really, though, you’re asking for the impossible, for a logical answer to a nonlogical question.

Out of my experience with the various Christian sects, I do find Catholicism to be the most consistent. You have to take certain fundamental leaps of faith inherent to all Christian faiths (i.e. that God exists and that the Bible is holy)… but if a person could get on board to that point, Catholics seem to make a great deal more sense than a lot of the others… I’ll give you that!

 

[Crumpy]

There is a lot to think about this apparent paradox.

Recall, that as Jesus taught us to pray “…Thy will be done…”

We are praying that God’s will be done, first and foremost. We are to pray for our needs and wants, but also to be mindful of God’s will.

There’s a lot of things I want, but I pray to God for the things that I am not even aware of, that I truly need.

As his Holiness Pope Benedict XVI says in his book JESUS OF NAZARETH, we must understand and interpret “…give us this day our daily bread…” in the light of all of scripture, and all the meanings of “bread.”

We are praying for communion with Jesus our Lord, first and foremost. God already knows what our needs and problems are.

Read the lives of the early Christian saints – martyrs – they longed for death. In Revelation John had already said, they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

As Christians, we need to focus ourselves, create the appropriate internal disposition, the inner life in union with Christ. There is no paradox in the message of joining ourselves to the sufferings of Christ.

I pray and give thanks continually. We all have so much to be thankful for. I thank God for even the smallest houses that I pass by in my hometown. Thank God these people have a place to live, no matter how humble.

I just can’t focus on paradoxes. It’s just irrelevant. Our faith should give us that life-changing “significant emotional event” that puts everything in perspective. We should be ready to die every moment, to meet Christ in the next moment, and be looking forward to that meeting.

 

[HappyHuman]

We are praying that God’s will be done, first and foremost. We are to pray for our needs and wants, but also to be mindful of God’s will. There’s a lot of things I want, but I pray to God for the things that I am not even aware of, that I truly need…

What does a Christian “truly need” anyway?- perhaps more humility, selflessness, strength to cope, etc… the Bible tells believers not to worry about their materialistic needs… and if a persons isn’t worried about those needs, they will instead be focusing their prayers on what they think will strengthen themselves spiritually.

I just can’t focus on paradoxes. It’s just irrelevant. Our faith should give us that life-changing “significant emotional event” that puts everything in perspective. We should be ready to die every moment, to meet Christ in the next moment, and be looking forward to that meeting.

What about Christians who don’t experience that life-changing moment?
Or what about people who experience that life-changing moment in another non-Christian faith? How is a person to determine whether the life-changing spiritual-emotional event that they personally (and powerfully) experienced is something they can trust, or if its something false (maybe just their own emotions run wild)?

 

[fhansen]

Once I had a bad smoking habit-couldn’t quit for anything. I called out to God as to a father for help and he did. It was God’s will that I stopped doing something so negative to myself but I think the lesson was that it was Gods’ will that I should pray to Him. If I hadn’t prayed to Him then I don’t believe His will would’ve been done. God may have willed me to pray but I didn’t have to respond.

 

[ErikaA]

What does a Christian “truly need” anyway?- perhaps more humility, selflessness, strength to cope, etc… the Bible tells believers not to worry about their materialistic needs… and if a persons isn’t worried about those needs, they will instead be focusing their prayers on what they think will strengthen themselves spiritually. )

I totally agree with your implication here. Remember, Jesus turns everything on its ear when he says, “Blessed are the poor” and “woe to the rich.” This was contrary to everything believed by prominent Jews at the time who equated prosperity with God’s blessings. I am materially fortunate, nice house, hunting property, etc. We are not Hollywood wealthy by any stretch, but we are absolutely fortunate. That said, I do not consider this a spiritual blessing - it is a handicap. Money is a roadblock to God. Jesus said as much. I know this and struggle with it. Thank you is the only prayer I need say. That and “Make me a saint.”

What about Christians who don’t experience that life-changing moment?
Or what about people who experience that life-changing moment in another non-Christian faith? How is a person to determine whether the life-changing spiritual-emotional event that they personally (and powerfully) experienced is something they can trust, or if its something false (maybe just their own emotions run wild)?

This too is an excellent question, one I’ve asked myself. But the same could be asked of love. How do I know my love for my husband is not the rampant coursing of emotions? At first, when you’re newlyweds, you don’t really know do you? The emotions are strong. But over years, after kids and little fights, you learn what love really is. It is a choice. I may not always have warm, cozy feelings toward my husband, but I love him. I choose to love him because there is something wholly wonderful in doing so. I know this. I’ve experienced it and I’ve watched others who toss marriage aside because the emotional well ran dry move from one whim to another in a desperate search for joy. This is sad. You deny yourself something pure and beautiful when you misunderstand love.

And this is why I’m becoming a Catholic. I truly felt that Protestantism wrapped faith in emotion. But faith, like love, is a choice - it’s an assent of the will. It may be accompanied with emotion or not. In my case, I haven’t felt the emotional torrent of God’s presence in a long time. But then, neither did Mother Theresa and look what she did. So there is hope for us all. There is hope when there is faith. And we have all have faith in something.

As for prayer, I will quote C.S. Lewis: “Prayer doesn’t change God. It changes us.” Neurologically speaking, there has much research done on the brain which substantiates this fact. The brain is much more “elastic” than previously believed and much research confirms that prayer and meditation have a demonstrable effect on our neural structure.

I like the Rosary because within it, there is the humble admission that we do not really know what to pray for. We often confuse our good with our bad and thus I believe we need the intercession of Saints, those who see with greater clarity what is truly good and what we truly need.

 

[Abbadon]

This issue is only a problem b/c you are placing God in the context of time. The same kind of paradox can be created with free-will.

God knows we are going to pray before we do it. Therefore, His plan already incorporates our prayer. If we weren’t going to pray, He’d know that too, and the plan would reflect it.

St. Padre Pio prayed for his father’s salvation even after his death, when it had already been decided. He said he did this because God would know about his prayers before it happened.

Remember God exists outside of all time. Cause and effect need not be linear.

God Bless

God is not outside of “all time” he has a timeline of his own. He maybe able to intercede throughout all of time in all dimensions but he would have a timeline of his own. Time is relative, its just a concept to explain the passage that we feel. For god not to have time would mean he would be static, he could not do anything, in a dimension with no time nothing occurs.

This actually brings forth a VERY interesting side point. For god revelation has therefore already come, IF god is outside our timeline or as you say “all time” then he is already in the future and already in the past. THEREFORE the future IS determined, because god is there he knows it.

If Padre prays in the future and god KNOWS with a shadow of a doubt god knows Pardre Pio is going to pray in the future that means again we don’t really have free will. We just think were choosing a decision but were not really because god alreayd knows the decision were going to make which means that the universe is Pre determined…

Well St Padre Pio should have already known that it was gods will for his father to die

 

[Abbadon]

Whose to say that God doesn’t provide us with countless billions of possibilities that we can freely choose and actualise of our own accord? What if there are specail Gifts and miracles that have been put in our hands, our responsibility? This can still fall into Gods overall plan.

We must remmenber and take in to account that Gods ways are not our ways; we cannot hope to comprehend every reason he has for doing a thing.

We might never know how God could possibly know all things, and yet maintain our free-will at the same time; but If God transends (is above) time, space, and matter; then it necessarily follows that God is all knowing, since God is not bound by the cause and effect of time; and so, it also follows that all time is present to God. This is all we need to know; it is not necessary to comprehend “how”, in order for it to be true and possible. Thats why we need faith.

I talked about this in my previous response. But i have to ask where did this idea that

God is not bound by the cause and effect of time; and so, it also follows that all time is present to God

and how do we “know” it to be true

 

[Abbadon]

Once I had a bad smoking habit-couldn’t quit for anything. I called out to God as to a father for help and he did. It was God’s will that I stopped doing something so negative to myself but I think the lesson was that it was Gods’ will that I should pray to Him. If I hadn’t prayed to Him then I don’t believe His will would’ve been done. God may have willed me to pray but I didn’t have to respond.

Your “I don’t believe His will would’ve been done”.

Are you saying if you hadn’t prayed god’s could not do something. God is Omnipotent he can do anything and his will is always so.

it’s in the our father

“Thy will be done on heaven as it is on earth”

You as a human cannot undermine gods will…

But then comes in free will, for something like smoking apherently god won’t help you because that is a “free will” based decision.

All these different factors and statements make the situation extremely confusing.

 

[Abbadon]

Sure. Prayer is conversation with God, not to God. Prayer is a relationship with God. We can talk over whatever we wish with God. But the correct disposition of prayer is Christ’s prayer in the Garden - “Not my will but Your Will be done.” To pray in any other way seems to me to be superstitious. And I don’t consider George Carlin to have an adequate understanding of his own Faith.

Your statement does not create a paradox, it does not contradict. However as you and i both know alot of people around the world pray for healing pray for this pray for that instead of simply communicating WITH god and praying for HIS WILL.

I’m going to make the assumption that people would not agree with peary and that people will say you can pray to god and he will heal you. to that i say only if it is in his will.

So i should probably refine the question now that people are seeming to get my point…

Why do we pray for something to happen rather than praying with god for his will to be done?

 

[Abbadon]

As far as the paradox goes, I’ve posted this thought several times on this website, why should we pray to Mary? If she is our mother and loves us so much, then she couldn’t possibly be praying more for us already, no? Why wouldn’t she be praying for us already?

If she’s not already praying for us to the max, then she’s not the person she is made out to be, I think.

I admit that it’s almost blasphemous to talk in such a way, but many people are stuck on this point.

We have the confidence that God will listen to our prayers. Our Lord told us to pray that his Father’s will be done – not ours.

I would like lots of this, that, and especially lots of yet another thing, but I pray that God will provide what I need, and I rest on that.

I watch all the shows on TV about fabulous houses with the latest designs and appliances, but I thank God for all the little houses that we have in our town, to keep so many people alive and comfortable. I am grateful for what He provides to so many, everywhere I look.

Now thats the jist of what i’m saying.

Now i’m not really (but i think i’m definately getting there, well i want to go back there…) catholic or protestant, so don’t flame me for sounding like one. BUT it puzzels me why we ask for the saints and mary for intercession, pray for us why? does god hear our prayers less? god is intinte, he hears all prayers, he already knows our prayers. So why are people praying for the intercessions of saints and mary.

Now personaly i love mary, i have a little statue of her on my desk. And shes really pretty and i like the saints and the flavour they bring to the culture of christanity.

But really think about it, god can do anything if it is in his will that you will be cured, he will cure you, he doesn’t need to send a saint becuase he is busy… Becuase he’s already there… And he’s all powerfull… That goes for anything that is in gods will…

 

[ErikaA]

BUT it puzzels me why we ask for the saints and mary for intercession, pray for us why? does god hear our prayers less? god is intinte, he hears all prayers, he already knows our prayers. So why are people praying for the intercessions of saints and mary…

First note, I am not Catholic yet, but may be converting soon. Long before I ever contemplated Catholicism, however, after I had become a Christian, a verse in the Bible struck me: Proverbs 15:29 states, “The LORD is far from the wicked: but he hears the prayer of the righteous.” A similar sentiment is expressed in Isa 59:2 and Ps 145:18-19. I read that and wondered, but who is righteous? Not I, I concluded (and of course St. Paul agrees). Naturally, the next thought is, so why would God hear my prayers? I still ask this question. It’s why I’ve begun to ask for the intercession of the Saints. I know I should pray to God and yet this difficulty gnaws at me. How do you overcome it and reconcile your own fallenness with God’s infinite perfection? How does a sinner humbly and sincerely approach that which is Good? If you say that through Jesus’ righteousness, I am able to approach the Father, I have to take issue with the assumption that Christ’s righteousness blankets my own iniquity, imparting to me a false, superficial righteousness. That is completely disingenuous to me and certainly not the type of deception I would credit to God. Perhaps the Sacraments would help me overcome this obstacle. I don’t know. But again, I may be alone in this struggle. If not, I’d love to hear how others overcome it.

As for the paradox, how do you know if anything you pray for is actually good for you? We spend so much of our time pursuing false goods, what makes us certain we do not pray from similar ignorance?

 

[fhansen]

Your “I don’t believe His will would’ve been done”.

Are you saying if you hadn’t prayed god’s could not do something. God is Omnipotent he can do anything and his will is always so.

it’s in the our father

“Thy will be done on heaven as it is on earth”

You as a human cannot undermine gods will…

But then comes in free will, for something like smoking apherently god won’t help you because that is a “free will” based decision.

All these different factors and statements make the situation extremely confusing.

God could’ve prevented me from smoking or stopped me from it at any point after I started just like He could’ve prevented Adam from sinning or delivered him from sin afterwards. God did not will the evil of the fall itself or the evil which followed from it. But he allowed it to happen for His own purposes.
God judged it better to bring good out of evil than to suffer no evil to exist. – Saint Augustine
God is wanting our wills to coincide with His, without forcing them, because He wants His creation, in the form of us, to freely choose “the right” rather then the wrong. There would be no reason to pray “thy will be done” unless there is the option of it not being done. The option is ours. God wants His creation to freely order itself around His will. We are the only part of that creation, at least that we know of, that can choose whether or not to go along with the plan. He’ll help us, due to and through the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice, to become obedient, but won’t force obedience. That’s His will.

 

[ErikaA]

God is wanting our wills to coincide with His, without forcing them, because He wants His creation, in the form of us, to freely choose “the right” rather then the wrong. There would be no reason to pray “thy will be done” unless there is the option of it not being done. The option is ours.

I totally disagree with you here. I believe we pray thy will be done as a demonstration of our assent, our acceptance of God’s sovereignty. It’s like when my brother was dying (he had cystic fibrosis). He said, “I accept God’s plan whatever it is.” A cynic could say, “What choice did he have but to accept it?” That misses the point. He didn’t accept his death. That’s not what he said. Brian said, “I accept God’s plan.” That God’s plan included his death was obviously true, but you can certainly accept your death without believing it is God’s plan you die. My brother accepted both and trusted that there was good even in his darkest fear. At the end, Brian found peace in acceptance. If that is all I ever glean from prayer, I’ll be eternally grateful. And that is what thy will be done means - I accept that this situation is not mine to change, that what is is as it should be.