Why bother to pray?

[rwillenborg]

I’m talking specifically about prayers of petition here.
So, if I am to assume that God knows everything past, present and future, then expressing my wants certainly does not fulfill the task of imparting and new information to him.
And if he is ALWAYS working to do what is really and truly in my best interest, then certainly there’s no point in trying to ‘change his mind’ so to speak. Why would I want someone who is acting in my best interest to not do so?
And, as we all know, God makes no bones about the fact that what you ask for, you very well might not get anyway.
So, I guess, what’s the point of prayers of petition?
I’ve heard people say that it’s because, well, as children of God, he likes to hear from us.
Let me tell you…as a parent myself of young children who DELIGHT in asking me for the same things OVER and OVER and OVER again, I fail to see how God would be impressed if I were to do the same thing.

 

[Trishie]

I wonder, did Mary need to ask Jesus if He’d assist the hosts at the wedding feast at Cana even though Jesus could also see that they were likely to suffer public embarrassment in running out of wine, a serious failure in the culture, but she did…and although Jesus murmured that it wasn’t yet time for His miracles, He nevertheless did so because of her request and the faith she showed.

In response to His Mother’s intercession, Jesus responded, though it wasn’t a matter of life and death.

Now I’ll go gather some scripture to support intercessory prayers!

 

[Trishie]

For starters… “We are quite confident that if we ask Him for anything, and it is in accordance with His will, He will hear us; and knowing that whatever we ask, He hears us, we know that we have already been granted what we asked of Him.” [John 5:14-15]

Yes, it is true that God knows our needs: “Your Father knows what you need even before you ask Him.” [Matthew 6:9] He says, “if two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be granted by my Father in heaven. For where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with them.” [Matthew 18:19-20]

“There is no need to worry; but if there is anything you need, pray for it, asking God for it with prayer and thanksgiving…” [Philippians 4:6]

Jesus promises, “Ask and it will be given to you; search, and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For the one who asks always receives; the one who searches, always finds; the one who knocks will always have the door opened to him. Is there a man among you who would hand his son a stone when he asked for bread? Or hand him a snake when he asks for a fish? … How much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!” [Matthew 7:7-11]

There are other quotes regarding intercessory prayer, for instance in parables Jesus told, like the insistent knocking of the neighbour asking for bread

 

[Trishie]

dianedew.com/interces.html

This site will give you many instances of the benefits of intercessory prayer, beginning with:
Genesis 18:23-32

   C.     Moses' intercession for the people of God, in pleading with the Lord for mercy, held back the hand of God from consuming the nation in His wrath.    

                 Exodus 32:7-14; Deuteronomy 9:8-9, 12-20, 23-27, etc.; Psalms 106:23

   D.     Because "prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God," Peter's "chains fell off from his hands," "the iron gate ... opened to them of its own accord," and he was led out of the prison by an angel of God!

I hope that helps.
Warm regards, Trishie

With intercessory prayer we are cooperating with God

 

[steve_b]

I’m talking specifically about prayers of petition here.
So, if I am to assume that God knows everything past, present and future, then expressing my wants certainly does not fulfill the task of imparting and new information to him.
And if he is ALWAYS working to do what is really and truly in my best interest, then certainly there’s no point in trying to ‘change his mind’ so to speak. Why would I want someone who is acting in my best interest to not do so?
And, as we all know, God makes no bones about the fact that what you ask for, you very well might not get anyway.
So, I guess, what’s the point of prayers of petition?
I’ve heard people say that it’s because, well, as children of God, he likes to hear from us.
Let me tell you…as a parent myself of young children who DELIGHT in asking me for the same things OVER and OVER and OVER again, I fail to see how God would be impressed if I were to do the same thing.

We do it because He asks us to. And it’s good to obey God

 

[jpjd]

rwillenborg, I have asked myself the very same questions. Why do we pray prayers of petition? He already knows my heart. And am I really going to change God’s mind? Besides, He knows more than I do what is best.

Heaven knows I have prayed very hard for years about some matters of great importance to me, and my prayers have not been answered. I had to ask myself, how do I know when God is saying “No” or is it just “Not yet”. When is it time to give up? It has been very hard for me to accept that God would not grant me this prayer, for it is not a frivolous matter by any means.

I have come to the conclusion that prayers of petition are simply an exercise of communication to God, for as the previous poster said, He told us to pray to Him. I no longer have expectations that my prayers will be granted. It is, however, a way to share myself with God and be open to His will.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I always thought of it like this: God knows everything that we will do. We still have to do it. So God answers all prayers. Now he knows what he’s going to do in advance, what decision he’s going to make, but we don’t know that. So I always figured God knew we were going to pray and still made his decision as a result of that.

I’ mhaving trouble articulating what I mean. Anybody else get it?

 

[Mintaka]

Why bother to ask for people to pass you dishes at dinner? Don’t people already know you’re hungry? Will they really let you starve if you don’t ask?

Why bother to say “Please” or “Thank you” or “Excuse me”? Don’t people already know what’s in your heart?

When we ask “Why bother to pray?”, we are asking “Why bother to treat God like a separate person, instead of just an impersonal universal force that will provide stuff without making us ask for it?” It’s rude.

And as for the people who think they’re too noble to ask for anything – they’re rude and holy-go-pious as well, or at least passive-aggressive. Though they mostly don’t realize it, to their credit.

 

[Black_Rose]

From an intellectual perspective, I am still incapable of believing in the power of intercessory prayer although I do believe (or want to believe) in God’s mercy and love.

I seriously doubt there is any power in intercessory prayer to change the outcome of any situation in a beneficial way. I do not know why God would intervene for a prayer for an unemployed person in a developed country when the needs of those in an impoverished country are more urgent. Why would God care more about the situation of an unemployed person in the US than the cry of a hungry child lacking access to nutritious food and clean, potable water? Since I view as a laissez-faire actor in contemporary world events, I doubt God would attenuate the material condition of humans since he would have done it already. Thinking about intercessory prayer would lead me to have feelings of hopelessness and frustration since not generating positive results will cause me to deem intercessory prayer as an act of futility.

Furthermore, I have no way of knowing whether an intercessory prayer has been answered or not, since there is no known null hypothesis to compare it against.

Some prayers require God to give preferential treatment over other people in zero-sum games; for instance, if an employer gives a person a job and the person received the job, then it would deny other people of having the job. Why would God prefer the interests of that person over the other people who applied for the job (and the some of those people competing for the job also prayed to the same Christian God.)

 

[VociMike]

I’ll give you my take on prayer, FWIW (possibly not much).

I used to think that prayer didn’t change God’s behavior at all, that it was all about changing the one praying, to bring that person into closer alignment with the will of God. And I still think this is a vital function of prayer, however…

One of the key features of God’s salvific work is that he calls us in so many different and fundamental ways to join with him in that work. God is extremely serious about having us truly contribute to the salvation and sanctification of the world. But the theory I proposed above violates that concept. So now I think that our prayers do indeed bring about the advancement of the salvation and sanctification of the world, even if the precise results are often unclear.

After all, we don’t believe that our other acts of faith, be they preaching the gospel or any act of Christian charity, have no effect on the world (other than ourselves). So it actually seems incongruous to believe that our prayers have no effect on the world (other than ourselves).

And that leaves one final, critical point. Just as, if we do not e.g. preach the gospel or perform some Christian act in a given circumstance, God works within that constraint, by finding other outlets for the grace that our inaction or bad action prevented. In the same manner, I believe, God works within the constraint of our lack of prayers to find other outlets for the grace that was thus denied.

In sum, prayer is just another case where God invites us to join in his saving work, but he will eventually make up for all our deficiencies.

 

[Black_Rose]

I’ll give you my take on prayer, FWIW (possibly not much).

I used to think that prayer didn’t change God’s behavior at all, that it was all about changing the one praying, to bring that person into closer alignment with the will of God. And I still think this is a vital function of prayer, however…

One of the key features of God’s salvific work is that he calls us in so many different and fundamental ways to join with him in that work. God is extremely serious about having us truly contribute to the salvation and sanctification of the world. But the theory I proposed above violates that concept. So now I think that our prayers do indeed bring about the advancement of the salvation and sanctification of the world, even if the precise results are often unclear.

Thank you for posting your thoughts about prayer.

I indeed believe that my prayer helps me align my will with God’s, but I see petitioning God in intercessory prayer as an otiose act, seeing no evidence for any impact from prayer on the material world. I still doubt it influences the behavior of God.

 

[Desertsailor]

God answers prayers all the time. Just because you don’t see His answer or understand His answer doesn’t mean He didn’t answer. I prayed for twenty years that my uncle be converted. On his deathbed he was baptized and received Extreme Unction. Should I have stopped praying after 19 years of not having my prayers answered? I saw the Bishop pray for a woman who needed knee replacement surgery and was scheduled for the next day. She didn’t have the surgery and I see her walking around town all the time.

We need to always ask God to help us and to thank Him for everything.

 

[Philthy]

I’m talking specifically about prayers of petition here.
So, if I am to assume that God knows everything past, present and future, then expressing my wants certainly does not fulfill the task of imparting and new information to him.
And if he is ALWAYS working to do what is really and truly in my best interest, then certainly there’s no point in trying to ‘change his mind’ so to speak. Why would I want someone who is acting in my best interest to not do so?
And, as we all know, God makes no bones about the fact that what you ask for, you very well might not get anyway.
So, I guess, what’s the point of prayers of petition?
I’ve heard people say that it’s because, well, as children of God, he likes to hear from us.
Let me tell you…as a parent myself of young children who DELIGHT in asking me for the same things OVER and OVER and OVER again, I fail to see how God would be impressed if I were to do the same thing.

I totally understand where you are coming from. If God is unchanging, omniscient, sovereign, etc etc etc then why pray? There are a number of reasons why I continue to pray, some you will find unsatisfactory.
One reason, as others have pointed out, is that God calls us to pray (Matt 6:9-13, et al). In doing so, God does not reveal the totality of WHY he calls us to pray, however. We do not have all the answers as to how prayer can “matter” when God has all of the aforementioned attributes, but our inability to grasp such mysteries does not obviate our obligation to respond to a clear mandate from God: “pray like this” (Matt 6) and Paul tells us to “pray unceasingly” elsewhere.
Another reason to pray (entirely apart from seeking results to our petitions) is that we draw closer to God. This is something we need to do. We come to know God better in this way. Eternal life is described as “knowing God” by Christ. In prayer we come to know God and are partakers of eternal life. God is always there waiting, but it is often only when we open our hearts and minds to Him in prayer that we reorient ourselves, our lives and our perspective toward His perspective and toward Him.
Another reason is that our sense of love and adoption is fostered by prayer. In these times God works in us through his Spirit to console us in trial and to prepare and empower us to walk in the good deeds that He has prepared in advance (Eph 2:10).
To wrap it up, prayer is mostly about us knowing God better, daily, and thereby submitting our will to His and trusting that whatever events come about in our lives. He is sovereign and will make good out of it out of love and mercy for us. Are you familiar with the closing prayer of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy? I find it profoundly divine:
“Eternal God, in whom Mercy is endless and the treasury of compassion inexhaustible, look kindly upon us and increase your Mercy in us that in difficult moments we might not despair nor grow despondent, but with great confidence submit ourselves to your Holy Will which is love and mercy itself.”

Keep praying!

 

[Desertsailor]

One must be careful not to ask God for selfish things like winning the lottery. You have to be careful what you ask for, you might get it and it will be a punishment.

 

[Scoobyshme]

A certain man died one day. Jesus took him into heaven and brought him to a huge warehouse filled with every imaginable thing he’d ever thought about wanting. He said, “Wow, Lord! This is impressive! But, why are you showing all this to me? What are all these wonderful things for?” Jesus looked at him and said, “These are all the things I wanted to give you while you lived on earth.” And the man asked, “Well, why didn’t you give me all these things?” Jesus said, “Because you never asked Me for them.”

 

[Black_Rose]

A certain man died one day. Jesus took him into heaven and brought him to a huge warehouse filled with every imaginable thing he’d ever thought about wanting. He said, “Wow, Lord! This is impressive! But, why are you showing all this to me? What are all these wonderful things for?” Jesus looked at him and said, “These are all the things I wanted to give you while you lived on earth.” And the man asked, “Well, why didn’t you give me all these things?” Jesus said, “Because you never asked Me for them.”

That’s interesting, so the Christian God acts in a manner consistent with Joel Osteen’s prosperity gospel. I doubt that is a rigorously theological position or even in agreement with secular common sense.

 

[VociMike]

That’s interesting, so the Christian God acts in a manner consistent with Joel Osteen’s prosperity gospel. I doubt that is a rigorously theological position or even in agreement with secular common sense.

That story made me think of the Apostles, who would have known of the efficacy of prayer if anybody did. I don’t recall that they had many mansions and other signs of wealth among them.

Or perhaps it is more accurate to say that the wealth they did receive via their prayers, was not the kind that could be stored in warehouses, and in a real sense was not the kind that could be kept at all, but rather the kind that must be passed along to others.

 

[Scoobyshme]

That’s interesting, so the Christian God acts in a manner consistent with Joel Osteen’s prosperity gospel. I doubt that is a rigorously theological position or even in agreement with secular common sense.

That’s not a literal story. LOL It’s a sort of parable. And, it’s not about material goods. It’s about “gifts.”

 

[Zatzat]

Why bother to ask for people to pass you dishes at dinner? Don’t people already know you’re hungry? Will they really let you starve if you don’t ask?

Why bother to say “Please” or “Thank you” or “Excuse me”? Don’t people already know what’s in your heart?

When we ask “Why bother to pray?”, we are asking “Why bother to treat God like a separate person, instead of just an impersonal universal force that will provide stuff without making us ask for it?” It’s rude.

And as for the people who think they’re too noble to ask for anything – they’re rude and holy-go-pious as well, or at least passive-aggressive. Though they mostly don’t realize it, to their credit.

God can read your mind. People at the dinner table can’t. If people at the dinner table could rerad your mind, I’m quite certain you wouldn’t have to ask them to pass the salt.

They’d just give it to you, unless of course they enjoy hearing you grovel, beg and plead.

 

[Tomster]

I’m talking specifically about prayers of petition here.
So, if I am to assume that God knows everything past, present and future, then expressing my wants certainly does not fulfill the task of imparting and new information to him.
And if he is ALWAYS working to do what is really and truly in my best interest, then certainly there’s no point in trying to ‘change his mind’ so to speak. Why would I want someone who is acting in my best interest to not do so?
And, as we all know, God makes no bones about the fact that what you ask for, you very well might not get anyway.
So, I guess, what’s the point of prayers of petition?
I’ve heard people say that it’s because, well, as children of God, he likes to hear from us.
Let me tell you…as a parent myself of young children who DELIGHT in asking me for the same things OVER and OVER and OVER again, I fail to see how God would be impressed if I were to do the same thing.

Prayer is commonly defined as an elevation of the soul to God in order to express to Him our feelings and our petitions. Psychologically, prayer is an act of the intellect, whereas devotion is an act of the will, which gives itself readily to God’s service; both appertain to the virtue of religion, which inclines man to render due reverence and honor to God (St. Thomas). In a broad sense, any movement towards God or work done for Him can be called prayer. But, strictly speaking, prayer is an elevation of the mind to God (subjective aspect), and a request or petition (objective aspect).

A divine model of prayer is the Our Father, dictated by Jesus, who has given an example of the continuous use of prayer and who has exhorted us to pray always.

Prayer, as an act of religion, is a duty; but it is also a need of the soul, which feels its own infirmities and indigence and turns in humility and confidence to the One who can help it. Prayer can be mental (silent) or oral (vocal). The sound of the word does not serve to communicate with God, who knows all things, but to excite our own affections. Those who admit universal fatalism or determinism deny the value of prayer, rejecting the concept of a provident God. But, even when divine providence is admitted, a vexatious question can arise: prayer, if effective would seem to change God’s plan (which is immutable). St. Thomas maintains that ab aeterno divine providence has disposed that certain effects should be conditioned by prayer and subordinate to it, and so prayer enters together with the other elements in the design of God.

The terminus proper of our prayer is God alone, the Triune God: but we pray also to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the saints that they may intercede for us. The efficacy of prayer depends on the Divine Mercy, but ordinarily it is proportionate to the dignity of the one praying. Mary’s power of intercession is significantly called by the Fathers omnipotentia supplex. Jesus Christ as Man prayed on earth and, according to St. Paul, He continues to intercede for us in heaven. Even the sinner can and should pray the best he can: God hears his prayer not in justice but in mercy.

The entire Christian liturgy bears witness to the usefulness, beauty, and necessity of Prayer.