Why bother with Religion?

[JudieK]

Why bother with religion? Because the human soul is essentially designed to seek its Creator. Mankind is by nature religious… seeking the infinite, even if it doesn’t know what it is seeking. Every culture has had some kind of explanation for this longing… why do you suppose we have a need to worship something greater than ourselves? It is by design. We were made for our Creator and He calls us to himself. We have that “hole” in our lives that only He can fill. We are not complete without Him. You may say that you do not have this “longing,” or that you are complete without God in your life. I would suggest that you have filled the “hole” in your heart with a temporary substitute- for some it is scientific inquiry (a faith of its own), for some it is working all the time, for some, physical fitness is a kind of religion. Whatever you occupy your mind with most of the time can be your “religion-substitute.” Ultimately, though, those things cannot really satisfy. things of this world are all fleeting, and can be here today, gone tomorrow. Science? It’s “truths” are ever-changing. Work? One day you’re the CEO, the next day you’re in the unemployment line. Fitness? You can have the most beautiful body on the planet and still be taken down by cancer or some other ailment. All these things are good, and have a place in life, but they cannot be what life is ABOUT. The soul eventually demands answers to the bigger questions…

As to why children die, or why babies are miscarried, etc.- We trust that children who die go right into the loving and Merciful hands of God. If you think this short time on earth is all there is, then it does seem a horrible injustice. But if you believe, as Christians do, that only God can see the big picture, and our life on earth is just a blink of an eye in the eternity of our souls, then it seems a little more bearable. For God, letting us experience death of our physical bodies might be akin to a parent taking a child to the doctor for a shot. It hurts for a second, but the reward (health) is worth the pain. Heaven for all eternity is worth a bit of suffering here.

Ultimately, God is the author of life, and if He chooses to bring a soul home to Him, that is His choice and perogative. We do what we can to protect life, but we accept that God has that right. We can NEVER intentionally take life, for then we are treading on God’s dominion. (I know there are those who will bring up Just War, Death Penalty, etc.- those are topics for another thread.)

Anyway- that’s my contribution to this discussion. Take it or leave it… I did the best I could

 

[janryboy]

If you are looking for some kind of mathematical, physical, or tangible proof, for the entire Catholic faith, then you are not going to find it during your life on this earth. You will find strong arguments, or physical proof for some of it, or you may not. Some things though are beyond understanding and proving.

I find it amazing that humans think that they should be able to understand everything. Such pride we are filled with.

^correct!

i dont think that trying the OP to convert could shed him some light…Rather than praying to God that he might believe lets pray that God should make him believe. Let God make him believe…in His miracles…in His own Will and in His own Time…

trying hard to make him believe could further go to annoyance, i think we could give some insight…i know this could lead to annoyance for there will always be a resistance…but we should always consider to the point where it is going…

LOL!

 

[Pious_Redeemer]

[No, he has a palm pilot, whatever he does, he writes it down.

Please, give us this text, because no biblical text was ever written by God Himself.
[/quote]

 

[cheddarsox]

To the OP,

Are you just interested in Catholicism’s answers to your questions here? Because there are other religions with very different approaches to “God”, and how and why things are as they are.

It is not clear to me that you are an atheist as some here have labeled you.

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from and what it is you are actually asking here?

I am not a Catholic, so if you are challenging Catholicism specifically, I will bow out.

cheddar

 

[Em_in_FL]

I don’t think you can speak for all God believers. I think there are differences among those God believers regarding the extent to which “God” controls nature. Clearly you all believe that God created the universe, arguably the single most significant natural occurrence in history. From that I logically inferred that you must also believe that God is the force behind other less signficant natural occurences (wind, volcanos, detachment of embryos from uterine walls, etc.).

I know certain fundamentalists believe God controls weather. After Katrina may such fundamentalists declared the hurricane was punishment on the sinners of the Big Easy. Creating a hurricane seems more difficult than detaching an embryo from a uterine wall.

What is everyone’s belief on God’s control of nature? Did he just create the universe and then put nature on auto-pilot from then on? Please enlighten me. Thank you.

:wave: Good morning Imagine23!

You say that the creation of the universe is “arguably the single most significant natural occurrence in history”…

So, make your argument!
Again, you’re still not answering your own basic questions. You say that God doesn’t exist and want US to prove that He does.
Well, then… I say God DOES exist and want YOU to really PROVE that He doesn’t! (you say you can… so go ahead!)

Imagine23:

Sure they do. Saving the lives of thousands of children and adults does justify “killing” a 4 day old embryo. Such embryos are killed all the time. When people go through in vitro fertilization they usually end up destroying their unused embryos. It makes no sense to ban (or limit funding for) the study of such embryos, especially when it could save the lives of countless children.

Can you show ONE disease cured by embryonic stem cell research?
Nope… doesn’t exist.
Adult and umbilical cord (non-embryonic) stem cells HAVE cured diseases, though!

Just some more food for thought…

 

[Imagine23]

Please, give us this text, because no biblical text was ever written by God Himself.

Excellent point Pious Redeemer. My point all along. The bible was written by mere humans, not by God. Those who believe the bible as the word of God are taking the word of other humans, not God’s word. It is tantamount to believing the many hypocritical evangelist preachers out there today that claim to have the word of God, you then see them on the news the next week confessing to having slept with a Gay meth-addicted prostitute.

And if God were to make use of a handheld electronic device, we all know he would opt for the Blackberry.

 

[Imagine23]

Good morning Imagine23!

You say that the creation of the universe is “arguably the single most significant natural occurrence in history”…

So, make your argument!
Again, you’re still not answering your own basic questions. You say that God doesn’t exist and want US to prove that He does.
Well, then… I say God DOES exist and want YOU to really PROVE that He doesn’t! (you say you can… so go ahead!)

Can you show ONE disease cured by embryonic stem cell research?
Nope… doesn’t exist.
Adult and umbilical cord (non-embryonic) stem cells HAVE cured diseases, though!

Just some more food for thought…

Emily,

I am disappointed that you have not been paying attention. I will say it one last time: I cannot, since it is impossible, to prove the non-existence of an omniscient superpower that cannot be seen. To do so is futile. That does not mean that it does in fact exist, simply that it’s non-existence cannot be proven.

That was the motivation for my pickel example, remember? You cannot prove that a chocolate covered pickel did not create the universe.

As to the embyonic stem cell point: the vast majority of scientists agree that it is the most promising avenues for the research and potential cure of terminal illnesses. Do you give up on something when it does not bear fruit immediately? Things like this take time. And, the harm and suffering that it causes (the destruction of a 4 day old, 150 cell embryo) is non-existent.

 

[wcknight]

Does God control everything ? IMHO I think He could but I believe He chooses not to.

Jesus tells us not a bird falls form the sky unless God will’s it. This appears to say that God is controlling everything. But rather than super-micro managing the universe, I believe God put in place laws of nature, laws of cause and effect (and a whole bunch of other physical, chemical or biological principles) and these basically make the universe go on its own.

But I believe God sometimes supercedes these natural laws at His discretion, through divine intervention, on His own whim or upon request These are instances where miracles occur. When someone of great faith (or even marginal faith) or folks pray for assistance, God allows the laws of nature to be circumvented.

When you see natural disasters, most people notice the net negative effects. What I tend to notice is how much damage could have been done as opposed to what actually occurred. Most recenty a huge tornado ripped through hundreds of homes. I think maybe a dozen folks were killed, maybe less, a huge tragedy. BUT when you consider how many could have been killed, that number is very small.

Even with the Katrina storm, a lot of damage was done. BUT the storm could have easily taken a direct hit on population centers and even more damage could have resulted. It could have struck much sooner and it could have hit NO directly, and many more lives would have been lost.

Yes it’s tragic for any lives to be lost, but given the level of devastation possible, the actual numbers are usually much smaller.

My opinion is that God controls our ultimate destinies, but he does not control each and every minute event. The levies breaking in New Orleans were largely the fault of poor engineering and negligence. Those levies should have been much better and replaced long ago.

The folks responsible for public safety were criminally negligent in allowing those conditions for potential disaster to exist for so long. God hates stupidity and incompetence.

IF you are going to build below sea level, for God’s sake do not use an earthen levy to hold back the water. The folks in Holland learned that ages ago. Their levies are all made of concrete, as the ones in NO should have been. The Katrina disaster was a warning to fix the levies properly. Whether or not the lesson is learned remains to be seen.

IF the levies had held up, odds are the politicians would probably not do a thing.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Emily,

I am disappointed that you have not been paying attention. I will say it one last time: I cannot, since it is impossible, to prove the non-existence of an omniscient superpower that cannot be seen. To do so is futile. That does not mean that it does in fact exist, simply that it’s non-existence cannot be proven.

That was the motivation for my pickel example, remember? You cannot prove that a chocolate covered pickel did not create the universe.

As to the embyonic stem cell point: the vast majority of scientists agree that it is the most promising avenues for the research and potential cure of terminal illnesses. Do you give up on something when it does not bear fruit immediately? Things like this take time. And, the harm and suffering that it causes (the destruction of a 4 day old, 150 cell embryo) is non-existent.

Sorry I haven’t met your expectations… but you haven’t met mine yet either… so we’re even.

Again…

You say that the creation of the universe is “arguably the single most significant natural occurrence in history”…

So, make your argument!

To answer your original question on this thread…
**Why bother with Religion?
**Because it dictates the origins of life.

If you don’t care about the origins of life… or aren’t interested in “arguing” your side… then why are interested in what WE believe?
Why are you here?
What is your goal by posting here? (I’m genuinely interested, not harassing in any way…)

 

[wcknight]

As far as miscarriages go, God decides who lives and who doesn’t. A lot of miscariages are from problem pregnancies.

There may be a problem or birth defect. People who smoke place their babies at risk. IF you abuse your own health, God does not prevent you from causing harm to yourself. One of my older sisters smoked and had a couple of miscarriages. There was a direct cause and effect and normally God does not bend the laws of nature.

But even if everything appears to be perfect, it is God’s will whether or not a fetus survives or whether we live to a hundred or never make it out of the womb. Only God can tell you why He decides as He does.

 

[Imagine23]

Sorry I haven’t met your expectations… but you haven’t met mine yet either… so we’re even.

Again…

To answer your original question on this thread…
**Why bother with Religion?
**Because it dictates the origins of life.

If you don’t care about the origins of life… or aren’t interested in “arguing” your side… then why are interested in what WE believe?
Why are you here?
What is your goal by posting here? (I’m genuinely interested, not harassing in any way…)

Your fixation on the word “arguably” in that statement is misplaced. Just ignore that word when you read it; i.e., the creation of the universe (the “Big Bang”) was the single most important naturally occuring event in history. What does that change for you?

It looks like you have no counter-argument to my stem cell point.

I’m here to inform and be informed.

 

[Imagine23]

As far as miscarriages go, God decides who lives and who doesn’t. A lot of miscariages are from problem pregnancies.

There may be a problem or birth defect. People who smoke place their babies at risk. IF you abuse your own health, God does not prevent you from causing harm to yourself. One of my older sisters smoked and had a couple of miscarriages. There was a direct cause and effect and normally God does not bend the laws of nature.

But even if everything appears to be perfect, it is God’s will whether or not a fetus survives or whether we live to a hundred or never make it out of the womb. Only God can tell you why He decides as He does.

Thank you Sir. So you are one of the Christians that believe that God performs abortions. I knew there some of you on this board.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Your fixation on the word “arguably” in that statement is misplaced. Just ignore that word when you read it; i.e., the creation of the universe (the “Big Bang”) was the single most important naturally occuring event in history. What does that change for you?

Nothing. You can’t define what caused that “big bang”. (it’s still a “mystery” to science.)
I can define it.

It looks like you have no counter-argument to my stem cell point.

As to the embyonic stem cell point: the vast majority of scientists agree that it is the most promising avenues for the research and potential cure of terminal illnesses. Do you give up on something when it does not bear fruit immediately? Things like this take time. And, the harm and suffering that it causes (the destruction of a 4 day old, 150 cell embryo) is non-existent.

I wasn’t really interested in arguing what doesn’t make sense… but okay…

I already discussed how the “harm and suffering that it causes” is the destruction of a human life by another human being, which is morally unacceptable no matter what you believe in.

I guess a similar argument could be used for cloning for the purpose of “replacement body parts”. Science like that may take time, I guess!

Humans are humans… no matter what “age” they are. Scientifically, the DNA proves it.

 

[nkelly]

Dear Imagine,

this thread is meandering all over the place.I suggest we clear the decks here and get back to basics!

1. Could you please tell us are you a) an atheist, b) agnostic or c) believe in God.
2. Do you believe the bible is a work of fiction?

God bless,
Noel.

 

[ssejllenrad]

I’m here to inform and be informed.

Then I must say this whole thread is pointless. The “information” (basically your arguments) you present to us is of no fact with regards to our belief and you refuse to accept the “information” we present to you.

We’ll go nowhere but in circles with this thread coz there is one very very big difference between you and us here… Faith my friend. You’ve thrown it away and we choose to keep it.

I’ll pray for you…

 

[buffalo]

The difference between a blastocyst (a group of 150 cells) and me is that I feel pain, have a memory of past occurences, interact with other humans and a blastocyst does not. Preventing a group of 150 cells from turning into a human being causes no suffering whatsoever to the blastocyst, yet has the potential to end the suffering of thousands of humans.

How you can you see this as a difficult choice?

Is your claim that at some point you became a human being? When was that?

You might also want to study adult stem cell therapy. There are over 1,000 successful cases.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Imagine23

While Catholics are sitting around debating thing like whether Mary ever sinned, atheists are thinking about how to save the planet.

While Catholics and other Christians are visitng the imprisoned, feeding the poor, tending to the widows and the orphans, opposing racial discrimination, advocating peace, etc. etc. … what did you say atheists are doing?

They are thinking?

 

[buffalo]

Look what Catholics are doing when we are not debating.

The Catholic Church in America –
Meeting Real Needs in Your Neighborhood

 

[mikew262]

To the OP,

Are you just interested in Catholicism’s answers to your questions here? Because there are other religions with very different approaches to “God”, and how and why things are as they are.

It is not clear to me that you are an atheist as some here have labeled you.

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from and what it is you are actually asking here?

I am not a Catholic, so if you are challenging Catholicism specifically, I will bow out.

cheddar

Maybe he is an agnostic. He’s not really sure God exists or not, but can’t prove it either way. He is asking for help here. I can more readily accept that.

 

[mikew262]

As to the embyonic stem cell point: the vast majority of scientists agree that it is the most promising avenues for the research and potential cure of terminal illnesses. Do you give up on something when it does not bear fruit immediately? Things like this take time. And, the harm and suffering that it causes (the destruction of a 4 day old, 150 cell embryo) is non-existent.

There is absolutely no proof that embyonic stems cell research will lead to anything. This is what many do not understand. Adult stem cell research holds as much promise. This is not to say that one or the other could eventually lead to breakthroughs, but if research includes producing embryos and then killing them then there is a real moral dilemma here.

However, I did read an article where they said one method would be to extract stem cells from an unfertilized egg, and then grow them for research. I could buy off on that method, since technically, you are not killing a human, because the egg was not fertilized.