Why bother with Religion?

[AlegreFe]

Not to be rude to AlegreFe or nkelly, but to be perfectly clear, these “Please pray this” requests or “I am praying for you” or “The only thing we can do is pray” comments are only going to scare away someone who isn’t a Christian. These are not the ways to convince someone who in not a Christian to become one. While there is a chance that it might come across to them as well intentioned, it will more likely come across to them as you being “holier than thou”, naive, or “another one of those superstitious religious people”.

Do you really think that someone who doesn’t believe in any form of a personal God, could or will find anything but ridiculousness from you asking them to pray a prayer?

I don’t take offense at all because you don’t know me. But I can pray for whomever I want. And I am not saying that I am “holier than” Imagine or anyone for that matter. I am not “holier than” anyone because one, I am a sinner and two, I don’t know anyone else’s heart.

I did tell him to pray but then, in the same sentence, I said at least read it.

And if someone isn’t a Christian, NOTHING will scare them away. So don’t say that my praying will scare him away. He could care less.

As far as “These are not the ways to convince someone,” we cannot “convince” anyone to become Christian. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. That is why I pray. And I asked him to read the prayers. If only to read the words at least I know that they will be planted somewhere inside of him for possibly later to grow. And only God can make those seeds grow. And there is nothing that I can do but pray. No matter what I say to this person, he will have his own beliefs, if any at all. Nothing I can possibly say will convince him to become Christian. But with all of these posts together with my prayers and anyone else’s prayers, something could start to happen but only by the Grace of God.

You are the one who is underestimating Imagine. You also underestimate God by telling me that I’m wasting my time if I pray or tell me not to pray or say that I shouldn’t let him know that I’m praying for him. I believe in the power of Prayer because I believe in the Power of the Holy Spirit.

I will keep praying.
Peace and God Bless.

 

[AlegreFe]

Mortal, I didn’t ask Imagine to pray. Maybe you’ve got me mixed up with someone else.

That’s okay kelly. I know you didn’t ask him to pray but even if you did, there is nothing wrong with that. Don’t let someone like mmortal03 talk you out of praying or even telling Imagine to pray or at least to “read” a prayer.

 

[AlegreFe]

You are in my prayers…

G

Oh good, someone else who is praying and is not afraid to say it.

 

[AlegreFe]

Right, that was AlegreFe. You said, “I PRAY you don’t find out God exists after it’s too late!”, which is right up there with “I am praying for you” or “I will be praying for you”.

Boy, you are very negative. You must feel really guilty about something. Or you probably had some really bad experience. But I know, none of my business… I don’t want to know. :nope:

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I have a serious question relating to the utility of religion.

I guess I’ll just cut to the chase and ask what atheism offers over and above religion-- why bother with atheism in either it’s passive or militant form?

The examples you gave were not particularly compelling for either form of atheism-- except to those who are already atheists.

Just saying.

 

[mmortal03]

I don’t take offense at all because you don’t know me. But I can pray for whomever I want. And I am not saying that I am “holier than” Imagine or anyone for that matter. I am not “holier than” anyone because one, I am a sinner and two, I don’t know anyone else’s heart.

I did tell him to pray but then, in the same sentence, I said at least read it.

Just to make it clear, I am not criticizing you personally, either. I am simply explaining that discussing prayer is not going to help the situation.

And if someone isn’t a Christian, NOTHING will scare them away. So don’t say that my praying will scare him away. He could care less.

“Scare” was the wrong word to use. It obviously won’t frighten an atheist away at all, but it will quite possibly make them leave, because they will see an argument involving prayer as being completely irrational, and will often just give up on all the irrational people that they have therefore found on the board and leave.

I am not saying prayer is irrational, and I am not saying you are irrational, but I am saying that highly scientifically-minded people often will think this, because of the obvious reasons.

As far as “These are not the ways to convince someone,” we cannot “convince” anyone to become Christian. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. That is why I pray. And I asked him to read the prayers. If only to read the words at least I know that they will be planted somewhere inside of him for possibly later to grow. And only God can make those seeds grow. And there is nothing that I can do but pray. No matter what I say to this person, he will have his own beliefs, if any at all. Nothing I can possibly say will convince him to become Christian. But with all of these posts together with my prayers and anyone else’s prayers, something could start to happen but only by the Grace of God.

You are relying too much on only one-side of the issue here. The Holy Spirit DOES work through our actions, and we can definitely convince others to become a Christian. Ultimately, you are right that it is the Holy Spirit that actually does the “doing”, but we can’t just sit around praying for the Holy Spirit to do something, as it can work through our actions as well. The choice to convert does not just happen solely on some supernatural plane separate from physical reality.

You are the one who is underestimating Imagine. You also underestimate God by telling me that I’m wasting my time if I pray or tell me not to pray or say that I shouldn’t let him know that I’m praying for him. I believe in the power of Prayer because I believe in the Power of the Holy Spirit.

I never told you that it is a waste of time to pray. It isn’t. However, it is a waste of time TELLING an atheist the fact that you are praying for him, and it is a waste of time asking an atheist to pray a prayer (or whatever your reasoning was for him to “at least read it”.)

You are right that the individual is going to have to make the decision, but to think that only by prayer that you can make any difference is ridiculous.

 

[AlegreFe]

You are relying too much on only one-side of the issue here. …
…
You are right that the individual is going to have to make the decision, but to think that only by prayer that you can make any difference is ridiculous.

You don’t believe that prayer alone can make any difference? And on top of that you think it’s ridiculous? You really underestimate the Holy Spirit and you don’t even realize it.

Besides, you should re-read my post.

AlegreFe:

But with all of these posts together with my prayers and anyone else’s prayers, something could start to happen but only by the Grace of God.

I also understand that God works in His time not ours.

 

[AlegreFe]

Oh btw mmortal03, everyone has their roles right… just as it says in scripture. So you and everyone else can do the talking and “convincing” and I (and anyone else who wants to pray) can do the praying. We, together with the Holy Spirit, can make this possible.

 

[mmortal03]

You don’t believe that prayer alone can make any difference? And on top of that you think it’s ridiculous? You really underestimate the Holy Spirit and you don’t even realize it.

Besides, you should re-read my post.I also understand that God works in His time not ours.

You are placing the emphasis on the wrong part of my post. What I was trying to get across was, rephrasing it: “To think that only prayer (e.g. that nothing else works but prayer) can make a difference is ridiculous.” I am not underestimating the Holy Spirit, as I am not saying that prayer doesn’t work, but that other things work by way of the Holy Spirit besides prayer.

 

[Imagine23]

Imagine, think about this - you have not learned anything at all in life on your own. It has all been passed down to you from before. Some of it you trust without question, but some you do not. Why the difference?

Please read the posts to which you purport to respond.

 

[Imagine23]

Oh btw mmortal03, everyone has their roles right… just as it says in scripture. So you and everyone else can do the talking and “convincing” and I (and anyone else who wants to pray) can do the praying. We, together with the Holy Spirit, can make this possible.

Prayer does not really work in my experience and in the experience of the religious people I have had contact with. Many very religious people pray for loved ones who are sick, and then eventually die. When that happens, you will say something like “it was God’s plan that they died.” So then why pray if God already has a plan for us? Do you think you are actually going to alter God’s plan by praying?

 

[Imagine23]

However, it is a waste of time TELLING an atheist the fact that you are praying for him, and it is a waste of time asking an atheist to pray a prayer (or whatever your reasoning was for him to “at least read it”.)

Exactly. As if reading a passage from the Koran would convert you to Islam.

 

[LilyM]

Prayer does not really work in my experience and in the experience of the religious people I have had contact with. Many very religious people pray for loved ones who are sick, and then eventually die. When that happens, you will say something like “it was God’s plan that they died.” So then why pray if God already has a plan for us? Do you think you are actually going to alter God’s plan by praying?

No, if God has a plan for you to die that can’t be altered. Even Jesus couldn’t alter the fact of his death by prayer. What CAN change with prayer is what they do with the time left, and the way they go (how well they prepare themselves for the life to come).

Jesus DID get an answer to his prayer - not that he didn’t die, but he was visited by angels who comforted and strengthened him for what was to come - in order that he endure it heroically as he did, and use wisely and well the time he had left to him, which he also did.

Where do you think he got the strength, courage and grace to comfort the women who were weeping over him, and to forgive his enemies (imagine it, being on his way to his own death and doing such things!) if not from his prayer? Otherwise he could have died kicking and screaming and complaining, be totally unremembered because of it, and totally fail in the task that was given to him

 

[Imagine23]

That’s okay kelly. I know you didn’t ask him to pray but even if you did, there is nothing wrong with that. Don’t let someone like mmortal03 talk you out of praying or even telling Imagine to pray or at least to “read” a prayer.

I agree, and for your consideration set forth the following:

“Tell of Abraham, who said to his father and to his people: ‘I renounce the gods you worship, except Him who created me, for He will rightly guide me.’ He made me this an abiding precept among his descendants, so that they might for ever turn to Him.”

 

[Imagine23]

No, if God has a plan for you to die that can’t be altered. Even Jesus couldn’t alter the fact of his death by prayer. What CAN change with prayer is what they do with the time left, and the way they go (how well they prepare themselves for the life to come).

Jesus DID get an answer to his prayer - not that he didn’t die, but he was visited by angels who comforted and strengthened him for what was to come - in order that he endure it heroically as he did, and use wisely and well the time he had left to him, which he also did.

Where do you think he got the strength, courage and grace to comfort the women who were weeping over him, and to forgive his enemies (imagine it, being on his way to his own death and doing such things!) if not from his prayer? Otherwise he could have died kicking and screaming and complaining, be totally unremembered because of it, and totally fail in the task that was given to him

That is all heresay. Let me give you a real example from my own personal experience. My grandfather was very religious his whole life. He prayed often and went to church often until he was no longer able. He was overcome by senility the last few years of his life and was barely able to understand what was going on around him. He was always a strong man. He was in pain most of the time for the last year of his life.

I watched him dehydrate to death the last few days of his life. He was unable to digest food. Keeping him hydrated would have just resulted in a longer drawn out death of starvation. A more humane course of death by euthanasia was not possible due to its religiously motivated illegality in my state (suicide is a sin). If this is what you mean by prayer affecting “the way they go” then you can have it.

 

[Imagine23]

It’s interesting that you bring up ancient deities. The fact that there is no evidence of any of these having any effect on humanity in the last 2000+ years have made them all obsolete. IF there had been some miraculous events associated with any other gods, then there might be some following or belief in them.

Christianity on the other hand has had hundreds if not thousands of events leading to millions of believers.

Yes there are also myths about these gods, but no apparitions, directly dealings as with the lives of various saints. The fact that Christ had 4 writers relating His story, and eye witness accounts from various other folks during His time makes a huge difference in His credibility. The fact that Christ or His Mother, Mary have appeared to variuous folks throughout history keeps them in the public’s mind.

It is not just coincidental that these other religions have been displaced and discarded. When nothing of consequence happens for thousands of years, that faith disappears. That has not been the case for Christianity and so it flourishes even after almost 2000 years since Christ lived.

So because of Islam’s long history, there must be a lot of truth to that religion. Ever considered converting?

 

[Red79]

That is all heresay. Let me give you a real example from my own personal experience. My grandfather was very religious his whole life. He prayed often and went to church often until he was no longer able. He was overcome by senility the last few years of his life and was barely able to understand what was going on around him. He was always a strong man. He was in pain most of the time for the last year of his life.

I watched him dehydrate to death the last few days of his life. He was unable to digest food. Keeping him hydrated would have just resulted in a longer drawn out death of starvation. A more humane course of death by euthanasia was not possible due to its religiously motivated illegality in my state (suicide is a sin). If this is what you mean by prayer affecting “the way they go” then you can have it.

Hi,

First off, I wish to offer you my sincerest sympathies for your losses in life, and you and your father will be in my prayers; and even if you believe prayer has no impact on anything, Jesus told us to pray and God would not ask us to do something that was “futile”.

I too watch my father over a two year span whither away into a pile of bones, only to have nothing left mentally… I have also witnessed a similar occurence this year, when my mother whithered away, due to Cancer, into bones…and eventually dehydrate and starve to death…the images of both deaths are stained in my mind like blood splashed on a white sheet…

That aside; I grew up in a liberal Methodist family, that didn’t practice any religion, and resulted in me being an Atheistic skeptic. My conversion story to Catholicism was relatively long, and much too long of a story to tell here, but, needless to say, the death of my father played a major role. I will not try to convert your mind, heart, or spirit to my current state, by trying to relate myself to you, but, it is that very suffering that I experienced in the death of my father and mother that has drawn me closer to God.

Christianity is the only religion where Suffering is transformed by the Divine Suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross. He is a God who understands our pain; who suffered for us… and died for us, when we were the very ones to nail him to the cross. He is not the pale unmoved mover of the Philosopher, nor is He the vast abyss that Atheism leaves after it kills off God. God is Love. And this loving God has given meaning to all things, including our suffering.

Anyhow, I can say a lot on this subject, but, I will leave the philosophy to those who have already taken up that sword on this thread, and I will tell you this. As I held my mother’s hand, as I knelt next to her deathbed alone a few months past, and I watched her take her final breathes… I prayed… and I prayed… and in the silence… in my silence… I heard God. Through Him, he has given a tragedy a “happy ending”, by transforming my insignificant sorrows into worthwhile tears of hope and anticipation of peace in Him. For, what purpose is any of our lives, let alone our deaths, or the deaths of the ones we love, any kind of suffering (mental or physical), if there is no God? Life is suffering, as Buddha stated, and if suffering is worthless, then so is life.

Have hope my friend… and even if the light should seem to go out, and you are left alone… pray, and God will hear you and comfort you. Pray, and you shall hear an answer that is unexpected… yet just what you needed. Pray, and you might just find happiness. What do you have to lose?

Peace be with you, and may Christ be your light in your darkest nights.

 

[AlegreFe]

Imagine, why don’t you watch EWTN right now. Click the link to tune in right now; it started at midnight Central time. The Journey Home show is on right now and Dr. Ben Wiker is on. He was a methodist, now Catholic and he wrote a book called A Meaningful World that dives into the reality of God and why no one can deny that.

 

[AlegreFe]

Imagine, most Atheists believe what they believe because of a loss in the family. I am truly sorry for your loss.

My former brother-in-law lost his father at a very young age. His family are cradle Catholics. But since he lost his father, he lost all hope that there could be a God. So now he is an atheist. It seems he first got angry with God and then decided that there was no God.

 

[blessedtoo]

I have a serious question relating to the utility of religion.

This is how you began this thread. And this is the tone of the bulk of your responses:

So because of Islam’s long history, there must be a lot of truth to that religion. Ever considered converting?

Exactly. As if reading a passage from the Koran would convert you to Islam.

I am an atheist, and so are all of you.

Now, please go about disproving my theory about my supreme pickle creator, his effect on the creation of the universe, and the consquences of worshiping him.

Therefore God is an abortionist.

Semantics. You call them miscarriages, I call them God-performed abortions.

Does that not mean that under your belief system someone is actually better off when he dies?

Didn’t God wipe out the entire planet in that little Noah’s Ark fairy tale?

It’s a simplistic, untestable “system” which is basically have faith in unprovable stories which explain difficult questions, that way you don’t have to think for yourself.

After spending the last hour reading this thread, I find it interesting the type of questions you chose to respond to with these zippy one-liners that do nothing to further a conversation you claimed to be serious about. You conveniently ignored the really brilliant and thorough responses of LilyM and Gunger and even your defender, mmortal. Instead, you respond with the kinds of answers that really do indicate you have done very little thinking for yourself. Indeed, many have suggested excellent reading materials (C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, the Catechism) that you have also dismissed. When I returned to the Church after 25 years, I had all these same childish questions but I chose to educate myself just a tad before arrogantly asserting uninformed ideas and defending them like they actually had substance. Perhaps you should return to the CA home page and read a bit more about the “proofs” and the “facts” and the “myths” and all the other areas in which you clearly need to be educated.