Why Can’t Lutherans Take Catholic Communion?

[EvangelCatholic]

Wow. Mary :imsorry:

 

[po18guy]

I heard an ole saying that anyone non Catholic that receives Holy Communion in a Catholic Church will convert Catholic someday.

There is a very good chance if they adored the Blessed Sacrament. Many conversions have occurred in adoration chapels.

 

[MaryT777]

Lutherans may believe in the Real Presence, but they do not share Catholic beliefs. Lutherans are Protestants. The Catholic Church only allows members of churches who have valid sacraments to communion at Catholic churches. A good example would be the Orthodox. I believe the Church allows Polish National Catholics to commune, although I could be wrong.

Note that Lutherans believe in consubstantiation, not transubstantiation.

God Bless.

bben: Nice explanation; You’ll have Jon up in arms with your consubstantiation
statement!

Here the LCMS does not say This IS my Body This IS my blood.
they say this is the true…IN with AND UNDER…so it’s much different than the Catholic Church in the wording. Some say not get bogged down in such things but it’s important
doctrinally speaking.

 

[MaryT777]

Wow. Mary :imsorry:

?.
I’d love to have your zest and zeal for the faith in a Catholic Church…what can I say!)
I admire your desire for unity; I’m just not willing to sacrifice the Understanding of the Sacrament of Holy Communion. Catholics take this very seriously . I’m sure you do too.

Mary.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Some voice positions quite contrary to Catholic/ Lutheran agreements :

I**. The Status of the Nicene Creed as Dogma of the Church (1965)
II. One Baptism for the Remission of Sins (1966)
III. The Eucharist as Sacrifice (1968)
IV. Eucharist and Ministry (1970)
V. Papal Primacy and the Universal Church (1973)
VI. Teaching Authority & Infallibility in the Church (1978)
VII. Justification by Faith (1983)
VIII. The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary (1990)
IX. Scripture and Tradition (1995)
X. The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries (2004)
XI. The Hope for Eternal Life (2010)**

 

[MaryT777]

There is a very good chance if they adored the Blessed Sacrament. Many conversions have occurred in adoration chapels.

I like to believe if someone asks permission to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church they have some desire in their heart to become Catholic. I don’t understand why else they would asks to do so myself.

That’ my OWN opinion.

Mary.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You can’t believe that Lutherans holy days exclude Rome?
St Justin, of Rome [6/1
Confession of St Peter [1/18
St Gregory,the Great [3/12
Pope John XXIII [6/2
St Peter and St Paul [7/29
St Clement, Bishop [11/23

Where exactly did I say that?..
[/quote]

 

[po18guy]

Some voice positions quite contrary to Catholic/ Lutheran agreements :

I**. The Status of the Nicene Creed as Dogma of the Church (1965)
II. One Baptism for the Remission of Sins (1966)
III. The Eucharist as Sacrifice (1968)
IV. Eucharist and Ministry (1970)
V. Papal Primacy and the Universal Church (1973)
VI. Teaching Authority & Infallibility in the Church (1978)
VII. Justification by Faith (1983)
VIII. The One Mediator, the Saints, and Mary (1990)
IX. Scripture and Tradition (1995)
X. The Church as Koinonia of Salvation: Its Structures and Ministries (2004)
XI. The Hope for Eternal Life (2010)**

Agreements are the route to unity, but not unity itself. You love Christ. Yet, you also love your faith tradition. I challenge you to study the Catholic Church anew, with an open heart. As I did, move toward her, rather than asking her to move toward you. The conversion is yours to make, not the Catholic Church’s.

“Understanding is the reward given by faith. Do not try to understand in order to believe, but believe so that you may understand.”

• Saint Augustine of Hippo

 

[JonNC]

I highly doubt there are too many Confessional Lutherans approaching a priest to receive Holy Communion.

The conversation between that priest and the person would be confidential.
Priests don’t talk about those types of private issues publicly.

Agreed on both counts.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

This most certainly is true which is why I find the thought of a confessional Lutheran asking a priest for Holy Communion to be probably a very very very rare situation.

Though we’ve never denied the validity of your priesthood or sacraments.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Agreements are the route to unity, but not unity itself. You love Christ. Yet, you also love your faith tradition. I challenge you to study the Catholic Church anew, with an open heart. As I did, move toward her, rather than asking her to move toward you. The conversion is yours to make, not the Catholic Church’s.

“Understanding is the reward given by faith. Do not try to understand in order to believe, but believe so that you may understand.”

• Saint Augustine of Hippo

Very thoughtful reply.

Beyond historic conflict; Lutherans pray for reunion with the holy Father.

 

[po18guy]

Very thoughtful reply.

Beyond historic conflict; Lutherans pray for reunion with the holy Father.

Maybe think of it this way: any difficulty with Lutheranism (I wish that all Catholics were as charitable) is not the beautiful house that has been built. It is the foundation. I hope that helps to place it in perspective.

 

[JonNC]

=Thinkingaloud;10898363]I would be interested in knowing more about your views on communion here.

Sure.

Would you, as a Lutheran consider a Presbyterian communion service valid? Are there other congregations that have valid/invalid sacraments?

That’s not for me to say. What I do know is that most folks of a reformed view do not hold to the real presence, meaning we receive His true and substantial body and blood both spiritually by faith and orally by the mouth.

Does your denomination allow members to partake in other churches if offered?
How did you square the differences of theology between the catholic and Lutheran mass in your conscience with partaking?

It is discouraged.

In the story I relayed, I was in my late teens, and in an isolated situation. I would not typically make the request now.

Can a Lutheran (or any other protestant) really in good conscience partake in a catholic mass, whether invited or not, when they disbelieve in the propitiatory nature of the mass and the adoration of the host?

The propitiatory nature of the mass is a difference between us, but adoration of the body and blood during the sacramental act is typical for Lutherans.

Personally I can’t see how. Either the Eucharist IS literally turned into Christ at consecration and therefore worthy of worship (for to fail to worship Christ is surely sin) or the bread and wine remain bread and wine (whether we interpret it this as Christ present in with and under the elements; spiritually present with the elements, or purely symbolic) and therefore to worship the elements as God is idolatry.

So, you can see that Lutherans believe that the bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ.

These two broad views of the elements are mutually contradictory and therefore one must choose one view and damn the other

Damn is a bit strong. Lutherans strongly reject a symbolic view.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon,
Did you need the permission from the LCMS Pastor to receive in a Catholic Church or
is that fine with your LCMS Pastor if the priest says it’s fine with him given your discussion.

I just wondered because I do believe you approached the Pastor when you were ELCA to obtain his permission to receive in the LCMS Church, so I wondered the above.

Mary.

Actually, this took place when I was in my late teens. I was LCA (ELCA) at the time, some 40 years ago.

Jon

 

[Corki]

Let me paraphrase: It is not enough that a person is baptized, confirmed and believes that Christ is truly and wholly presence in the blessed Sacrament?

No, that is not enough. You must be properly disposed to receive Communion as well. If you are there out of disobedience or pride and if your actions give scandal, you are not properly disposed to receive Communion. You are moving in the right direction but you are not there yet.

Did the archbishop of Washington DC do evil by inviting the Lutheran seminarian to receive Mass in a Catholic Church.

No, quite the contrary. In that example, the seminarian, the priest and the Bishop were all acting out of obedience to the Church. Church law provides that certain non-Catholics may be given permission** by a Bishop **to receive Communion if the Bishop believes the person is properly disposed, has a Catholic understanding of the Eucharist and the circumstance warrents it.

When the seminarian took that one-time permission and not only extended it beyond the circumstance where it was given but also broadcast his actions, he committed a grave error. He did not have permission beyond that one event and he certainly did not have permission outside the scope of control of that one Bishop. Likewise, when monks or religious encourage non-Catholics to receive Communion without seeking permission from the Bishop, they commit grave error.

And the Bishop did not **invite **the Luteran to receive Communion. In the example given, the Lutheran requested permission from the priest who then requested permission from the Bishop.

 

[JonNC]

Lutherans may believe in the Real Presence, but they do not share Catholic beliefs. Lutherans are Protestants. The Catholic Church only allows members of churches who have valid sacraments to communion at Catholic churches. A good example would be the Orthodox. I believe the Church allows Polish National Catholics to commune, although I could be wrong.

Note that Lutherans believe in consubstantiation, not transubstantiation.

God Bless.

Please note my signature. Lutherans reject consubstantiation.

Jon

 

[Corki]

What doesn’t make sense? That an archbishop immediately said yes? Or that in 1978 the priest would seek his bishops feedback?

I was also a Lutheran seminarian in 1970’s who regularly communed with Catholic religious in Catholic communities and they received Communion in Lutheran churches,

That is sadder still. While there are circumstances where non-Catholics can receive Communion at a Catholic Mass, there are not circumstances where Catholics are permitted to receive at a non-Catholic service (excepting an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, with the permission of the Orthodox clergy)

As to the first, it is highly unusual for a priest to seek this permission from their Bishop. Washington DC is s huge diocese so that wouldn’t be a simple thing to do. This appears, based only on what has been posted, that this was a fairly trivial and spur-of-the-moment request. If the Bishop did not know the Lutheran personally or by reputation, it is surprising that he gave permission soley based on a the priest’s request without seeking more information or to interview the Lutheran seminarian.

Both the author and a poster comment on occasions where the extended family gather [Christmas, Easter]. Who would tell their *mother-in-law that she can not eat with the family because she doesn’t agree with others on the most infinitesimal details?

Fortunately, we don’t have to be the ones to tell her. In most parishes, it’s right there in the front of the missallete.

JonNC:

Why, Steve, do you say that a priest would not bother the bishop? Would he typically just go ahead and allow the Lutheran to receive, or would he typically refuse?

I have been present for several of these requests, including one from an Anglican family member who was well on his way to being a Catholic. In every case, the priest simply said “no” and did not attempt to take it to the Bishop.

There have been some famous cases where permission was given, for example to some non-Catholics at Pope John Paul II’s funeral. But it was very clear that it was due to personal knowledge of the non-Catholic requesting and due to the extraordinary circumstance.

 

[Thinkingaloud]

Thanks for your reply.

Sure.

That’s not for me to say. What I do know is that most folks of a reformed view do not hold to the real presence, meaning we receive His true and substantial body and blood both spiritually by faith and orally by the mouth.
It is discouraged.

In the story I relayed, I was in my late teens, and in an isolated situation. I would not typically make the request now.

Fair enough!

The propitiatory nature of the mass is a difference between us, but adoration of the body and blood during the sacramental act is typical for Lutherans.

Interesting, I didn’t know that. Would Lutherans make a distinction between the elements and what the elements contain? From what I’ve read on the Lutheran view, you believe the bread and wine is still present but Christ is present within the elements?

I realise damn is a strong word. But I believe it needs to be that strong because this issue is directly about the worship of God.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

No expert but there is a distinction among Lutherans. Some see Christ’s Presence in the adoration [elevation, sometimes incense/ bells]. If all the elements can not be consumed, they are Reserved. An aubry at my church w/ white candle.

Other Lutherans see Christ Presence in the adoration but if all the elements can not be consumed [poured into piscina] they are set aside with unblessed wafers to be re-consecrated at the next Eucharist.

 

[jmcrae]

Came across this article from the perspective/ practice of an ELCA pastor regarding intercommunion.

Any thoughts?

Here is my thought:

If Lutherans want to be reunited in full Holy Communion with the Catholic Church, then they should renounce the Reformation, make appropriate preparations either through private instruction or through the Rite for Baptized Christians, and make their Profession of Faith in the Catholic Church.

It makes zero sense for a professing Lutheran to receive Holy Communion from a Catholic priest, when the whole point of Lutheranism was to renounce the Catholic Church, including the priesthood, and declare the whole thing to be “the whore of Babylon.”