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Michael57
Guest
You left out: neither makes them Catholic, nor in full communion with the Catholic Church no matter how much they think they have in common.
That was the point. No one is “guarding the doors” for fear - people will do whatever thing they decide to do no matter how fruitless and discordant. That is between themselves and God, but people that are non-Catholic simply taking communion in Catholic Mass in no way brings them into full communion with the Catholic Church.
That’s the point, they deceive themselves. They look at the Eucharist and see not the Body and Blood. They see others receiving the Holy Eucharist and think that they can simply walk up and partake, not with any understanding, or even belief. That’s not how to achieve “full communion” and “one accord”. That can’t even be properly called “communion”.
I know what I said. I hope you know now what I said as well. I say this not in malice, but in truth with hope.
I also say this is not a small thing. The closer it is examined, the more Truth is revealed. The more closely it is observed, the more that Christ is in it. The Son of the Most High is right in the middle of it.
The more Truth is revealed, the less of that which is not Truth falls away. I love that about the Catholic Church and her doctrines and Sacred Traditions!
RCIA is a long process. And it’s only the beginning of living the Catholic Faith.
So, come let us reason together and find Truth.
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EvangelCatholic
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**What exactly is the difference between Catholic and Lutheran belief in communion? They sound pretty alike to me.
Fr. Joe Answers:
You are correct in sensing that there is more unity than difference in the way Catholics and Lutherans understand and celebrate communion. In fact, since the second Vatican Council there has been a “coming together” of these different Christian Churches with respect to communion. The Catholic Eucharist (Mass) is now celebrated in the language of the local community rather than in Latin. The communal celebration of the Mass is much preferred to the private celebration by a priest that was common before Vatican II. And Catholics have restored the ancient practice of communion under the forms of both bread and wine.
In dialogues between Lutheran and Catholic theologians in 1968, Lutherans agreed that the celebration of the Eucharist involves a sacrifice of praise and self-offering that unites the believer with the sacrifice of Christ. At the same time, Catholics joined Lutherans in affirming that the sacrifice of the cross was a unique, one time event that is not “repeated” in the celebration of the Eucharist. Both Lutherans and Catholics affirmed that in the Eucharist Christ is “present wholly and entirely, in his body and blood, under the signs of bread and wine.” This “presence” of Christ in the Eucharist is more than a commemoration, it is an “effective sign” which “communicates what it promises” (“Building Unity”: Ecumenical Series IV, editors Burges and Gros: Paulist Press, 1989). **
bustedhalo.com/questionbox/what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-catholic-and-lutheran-belief-in-communion-they-sound-pretty-alike-to-me
Fr. Joe Answers:
You are correct in sensing that there is more unity than difference in the way Catholics and Lutherans understand and celebrate communion. In fact, since the second Vatican Council there has been a “coming together” of these different Christian Churches with respect to communion. The Catholic Eucharist (Mass) is now celebrated in the language of the local community rather than in Latin. The communal celebration of the Mass is much preferred to the private celebration by a priest that was common before Vatican II. And Catholics have restored the ancient practice of communion under the forms of both bread and wine.
In dialogues between Lutheran and Catholic theologians in 1968, Lutherans agreed that the celebration of the Eucharist involves a sacrifice of praise and self-offering that unites the believer with the sacrifice of Christ. At the same time, Catholics joined Lutherans in affirming that the sacrifice of the cross was a unique, one time event that is not “repeated” in the celebration of the Eucharist. Both Lutherans and Catholics affirmed that in the Eucharist Christ is “present wholly and entirely, in his body and blood, under the signs of bread and wine.” This “presence” of Christ in the Eucharist is more than a commemoration, it is an “effective sign” which “communicates what it promises” (“Building Unity”: Ecumenical Series IV, editors Burges and Gros: Paulist Press, 1989). **
bustedhalo.com/questionbox/what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-catholic-and-lutheran-belief-in-communion-they-sound-pretty-alike-to-me
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MaryT777
Guest
Evangel Catholic:
Do you truly believe there are no significant differences between the two Faiths Catholic and Lutheran?
Do you abide by the Concord Book/Lutheran confessions?
Do you truly believe there are no significant differences between the two Faiths Catholic and Lutheran?
Do you abide by the Concord Book/Lutheran confessions?
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SteveVH
Guest
That’s a great point. The change in the substance occurs when the priest, in the person of Christ, says the words “This is my body… This is my blood”. These are the words of God. When God says “let there be light”, there is light. When he says “This is my body…”, it is his body.
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SteveVH
Guest
If that is true, what is stopping you?
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EvangelCatholic
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Did you accept the Catholic/ Lutheran Accord?
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EvangelCatholic
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One can’t cite infallibility and not accept these important ecumenical proclamations
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Deconi
Guest
They may ‘sound’ pretty alike’…but in the reality of detailed examination, there’s a chasm between knowing/accepting/understanding it TO BE what Christ said…and taking it as an “effective sign” of what He said!
Still quite some distance to navigate between the Lutheran profession and Catholic knowledge.
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EvangelCatholic
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Can you cite your sources?This bears elaboration for it is false at first glance and hope you do not base your understanding / belief upon it. Nothing was ‘restored’ from pre-Vat to post-Vat 2. If anything, it was re-affirmed, but as I say, it requires elaboration in case I misunderstand what this ‘snippet’ says.
They may ‘sound’ pretty alike’…but in the reality of detailed examination, there’s a chasm between knowing/accepting/understanding it TO BE what Christ said…and taking it as an “effective sign” of what He said!
Still quite some distance to navigate between the Lutheran profession and Catholic knowledge.
I prayed many times in the Cathedral basilica of St. Louis, Missouri. Were my prayers not welcome?
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MaryT777
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The Catholic Lutheran accord was not mean to suggest we agree on aspects of Communion; it was suggesting between the LWF and the Catholic Church that
there is some understanding of justification. That said it’s noted by the Catholic Church the “signatories” are not the same. The LWF cannot bind doctrine on all Lutherans including the LCMS and Confessional Lutherans. They did not sign it,
So I like the fact we’ve come further on Justification but the Conservative Lutherans feel
it was a “sell out” of Lutheranism Justification. (Many do)
I accept that the Catholic Church reaffirmed its position on Justification; I assume you mean the JDDJ as we call it.
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MaryT777
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Of course they were welcome. We’re not talking about prayers on this thread but Holy Communion; pray away
Is that not where the LCMS seminary is? One of them? Hmmmmmmmmmm I wonder what THEY Would think about that but that’s off topic for this thread.
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EvangelCatholic
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I was in that seminary with a wife and baby on the way. I needed all the help I could get!
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Michael57
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I forgot to mention in my previous post: Wasn’t that what the author of the article was stating? That he was receiving communion while visiting his relatives, without asking the parish priest?
One cannot read that full article without that jumping right out.
Do you really think that had he asked the priest, when visiting his Catholic relatives, that he would be permitted to partake of it?.
I think the author understands full well that this wouldn’t happen, and relies inappropriately on the invitation of his relatives who are in the Laity And a permission that was given long ago and far away. He knows better, and implied it as much in the article as well.
It is clear to me that he is/was receiving Catholic communion, and “doing it on the sly”. To that I say, he should go “all in” and go through RCIA.
I, for one, would LOVE to see our Lutheran brethren in true and full communion.
That would be a very happy day indeed.:extrahappy:
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MaryT777
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26-March-2001 – Vatican Update
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VATICAN CAUTION ON CATHOLIC-LUTHERAN ACCORD
VATICAN, Mar. 26, 01 (CWNews.com) – The Vatican has issued a new caution regarding last year’s joint Catholic-Lutheran statement on justification, pointing out that the statement can only be understood properly in light of the accompanying statements put forward by the Holy See.
In a new statement, jointly drafted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, the Vatican observes that while “the Lutheran conception is no longer condemned by the Catholic Church,” still there remain some important doctrinal differences. The new Vatican statement appeared in the March 25 issue of L’Osservatore Romano.
The Vatican cautions against “some interpretations that are not pertinent” to the joint Catholic-Lutheran statement. By guarding against such misinterpretation, the statement points out, both groups can protect the future development of common theological positions.
The new Vatican statement is apparently a response to the suggestions offered by some Catholics-- especially in Germany, where the joint Catholic-Lutheran statement was formally signed-- that members of the two faiths should now be able to celebrate the Eucharist together. Serious doctrinal disagreements remain between the faiths, the Holy See points out, and “only when they are resolved can we celebrate the Eucharist in truth, as an expression of our unity with Christ and with each other.”
Today, the statement continues, “when there is no unity on essential doctrinal matters, the common celebration of the Eucharist would not be truthful, and could suggest that the division among Christians is insurmountable.” It would, therefore, be counterproductive for the long-term goal of achieving full Christian unity.
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity also recall that when the joint Catholic- Lutheran statement was issued, the Holy See also issued an accompanying statement indicating that the teachings of the Council of Trent and Vatican I were not being changed. Thus the Catholic Church is not altering her position regarding justification by faith.
Furthermore, the Vatican points out that when the Catholic-Lutheran statement was signed, Cardinal Edward Cassidy-- who was, at the time, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, and the Vatican representative at the signing ceremony-- observed that while the joint statement was an important step toward theological accord, “it is not the end of the road.” The cardinal observed at that time: “A lot more work is still to be done.”
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VATICAN CAUTION ON CATHOLIC-LUTHERAN ACCORD
VATICAN, Mar. 26, 01 (CWNews.com) – The Vatican has issued a new caution regarding last year’s joint Catholic-Lutheran statement on justification, pointing out that the statement can only be understood properly in light of the accompanying statements put forward by the Holy See.
In a new statement, jointly drafted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, the Vatican observes that while “the Lutheran conception is no longer condemned by the Catholic Church,” still there remain some important doctrinal differences. The new Vatican statement appeared in the March 25 issue of L’Osservatore Romano.
The Vatican cautions against “some interpretations that are not pertinent” to the joint Catholic-Lutheran statement. By guarding against such misinterpretation, the statement points out, both groups can protect the future development of common theological positions.
The new Vatican statement is apparently a response to the suggestions offered by some Catholics-- especially in Germany, where the joint Catholic-Lutheran statement was formally signed-- that members of the two faiths should now be able to celebrate the Eucharist together. Serious doctrinal disagreements remain between the faiths, the Holy See points out, and “only when they are resolved can we celebrate the Eucharist in truth, as an expression of our unity with Christ and with each other.”
Today, the statement continues, “when there is no unity on essential doctrinal matters, the common celebration of the Eucharist would not be truthful, and could suggest that the division among Christians is insurmountable.” It would, therefore, be counterproductive for the long-term goal of achieving full Christian unity.
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity also recall that when the joint Catholic- Lutheran statement was issued, the Holy See also issued an accompanying statement indicating that the teachings of the Council of Trent and Vatican I were not being changed. Thus the Catholic Church is not altering her position regarding justification by faith.
Furthermore, the Vatican points out that when the Catholic-Lutheran statement was signed, Cardinal Edward Cassidy-- who was, at the time, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, and the Vatican representative at the signing ceremony-- observed that while the joint statement was an important step toward theological accord, “it is not the end of the road.” The cardinal observed at that time: “A lot more work is still to be done.”
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MaryT777
Guest
I hear ya~I was in that seminary with a wife and baby on the way. I needed all the help I could get!
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Totally agree and applaud the action of Benedict particularly since he has welcome reunion. Lutherans will probably have photos of him in their kitchens some day, especially since he’s Deutsche.
But it was another pope who moved the Church the most and why all these dialogs and accords happen. Blessed John II III has a holy day with Lutherans.
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MaryT777
Guest
…planning a trip to visit EvangelCatholic to see the photo of Benedict and join in visiting the holy day celebrationTotally agree and applaud the action of Benedict particularly since he has welcome reunion. Lutherans will probably have photos of him in their kitchens some day, especially since he’s Deutsche.
Towards a better understanding…
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EvangelCatholic
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Only trouble is that Lutherans aren’t too keen on going back to church during the week unless there’s a potluck immediately after Lenten Vespers!…planning a trip to visit EvangelCatholic to see the photo of Benedict and join in visiting the holy day celebration
Towards a better understanding…
John23rd is recognized in the Daily Office. The paraments are white; the color of joy and resurrection.
catholicendtimetruths.advantagenewmedia.com/calendar-of-saints-lutheran/03/05/2013
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Deconi
Guest
Regarding bread and wine as the ‘elements’ for Holy Communion?
Pick a century.
Regarding mass Communion? (as opposed to private between priest and laity)
Pick a century.
In anticipation, to settle any argument would be to ‘see’ what the 1st century Catholics did. Our witness there - yours and mine - would be Scriptures (see Paul/John) or extramurally, Ignatius / Clement…down to Augustine.
As pointed out by ‘Mary’ - the subject matter is The Eucharist; not prayers. A man in the jungle without a ‘faith’ will have his prayers heard by He Who made us all, but a different subject to the thread subject.
In the spirit of information sharing rather than argumentation…
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